Stand with Arizona
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Sunday, May 16, 2010 21:28
VIEWED: 15979
PAGE 9 of 18
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
I am one of the citizens of Arizona, and I can tell you that it doesn't matter how bad a problem is, or how upset it makes people.
Laws that have a strong potential for abuse are not the answer.
Oh, Anthony - you obviously have no idea where you live or what you're talking about. [/sarcasm]
And yeah, Draconian laws and over-reaching law encroachment (this goes way beyond law "enforcement" and well into encroachment) efforts are the textbook examples of how NOT to react to a problem. As I've pointed out, this law *claims* to be aimed at well under 4% of our population, when in reality it's just a wedge which is being used to pry the Fourth Amendment apart. If the law is allowed to stand, it set precedent that what we do to one group, we can do to EVERY group. Anyone old enough to remember when police PROMISED not to ever pull anyone over just for not wearing their seatbelt?
And Rap, spare us your phony indignation and your crocodile tears about the poor, abused illegals who are the "kidnap victims". You don't give two fucks about these people, as you've so often and so adequately pointed out already, so don't try to blow smoke up our asses by claiming that your concern is for them.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
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Quote:
And Rap, spare us your phony indignation and your crocodile tears about the poor, abused illegals who are the "kidnap victims". You don't give two fucks about these people, as you've so often and so adequately pointed out already, so don't try to blow smoke up our asses by claiming that your concern is for them.
That's the best you can muster ?
I'm not the one dismissing the kidnappings and harsh treatment of an entire group of people, simply because it doesn't fit my argument - THAT'S YOUR DEPARTMENT!
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
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"The majority of your fellow citizens disagree with you. They disagree that it doesn't matter how bad the problem is, as well as this law having a " strong potential " for abuse. "
Hello,
I like to think that our Constitution serves, amongst other things, to protect against the tyranny of the majority.
As for that self-same majority? Somehow I missed the vote.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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"I'm not the one dismissing the kidnappings and harsh treatment of an entire group of people, simply because it doesn't fit my argument"
Hello,
I actually don't think your argument was ever, "We must stem the tide of illegal immigrants so that we can stop the rampant kidnapping of illegal immigrants."
Unless you honestly want to suggest that it was?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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"i never hear any criticism of the Mexican and S. American governments"
Hello,
I hereby criticize the Mexican and S. American governments. They are just awful.
I want to be much, much better than they are.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
ok then, if the Arizona law is just simply unacceptable.. whats the solution?
If I say I don't have any easy solutions, does that mean we should automatically jump to the worst "solution"? If memory serves, weren't you of the "do nothing" persuasion when it came to healthcare reform? What was YOUR solution to that issue? Since you didn't have an easy, workable solution, can we assume that you approve fully of the insurance mandate? Or can we deduce that while you might not know what the answer IS, you know what answer you DON'T WANT?
You're offering a false dichotomy, a non-choice. "If you don't like this, then what?" That's rather like telling someone they have terminal cancer, 6 months to live, and then handing them a .45 and telling them if they don't have a better solution, they really should shoot themselves. Now. Sooner would be better, because we need the room and the medicine for people who aren't needlessly wasting oxygen.
Quote:
if its racist to want an orderly immigration policy... maybe the more important question should be as Americans, are we even entitled to enforce our borders and regulate immigration? can we secure the border, can we document people who are living and working here? if immigration is a 'human right'.. does this same principle apply to me, if say.. i want to pick up and move to Mexico(or anywhere else in the world)? it turns out they would be much less accepting then we have been tradionally. in other words.. i can go anywhere, for whatever reason, documented or not, and the people of that town or city or country have no say or jurisdiction? if this is the argument being made.. maybe someone should tell that to Mexico
It's not racist to want an orderly immigration policy. That's where you're conflating the issues. Applying one set of standards TO EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO COMES INTO THE COUNTRY is not the issue. If it were, there'd be no issue at all. We're talking about this because there's a new law on the books that is NOT treating everyone equally, and is designed from its inception to single out a particular group of people based solely on their appearance.
And as I've pointed out before, do you REALLY want to make the case for America by pointing out how bad Mexico is? Really? Pointing out how tough their rules are, as a way to show how tough ours should be, doesn't seem like the smart choice.
Let's take gun ownership, for instance. It's damned near impossible to legally own a gun in Mexico. Should we do that here? Wouldn't it cut down drastically on crime, both here AND there, if guns weren't so easily obtainable here?
[note to Frem: I'm *NOT* arguing that or going down that road; I'm merely using that ludicrous example as being illustrative of the kind of arguments that line of logic can take you through.]
Quote:
if we wanted to go just by precedent, does anyone recall that in times past, it was common for a culture to literally create a walled fortress around a settlement? im not advocating this, but unless someone wants to argue that such an act is implicity racist.. i think the whole discrimination accusation falls flat
That really doesn't make very much sense. But while you're at it, how often were Jews welcomed into those walled cities?
Quote:
personally, i am all for unlimited, unrestricted travel!... in theory. but then again, we dont have a libertarian society where such a stance might actually be practical.
So your logic is that, since we don't have a libertarian paradise, the next closest thing is to have a right-wing fascist police state? If you don't have your libertarian society, how does passing ever-more-intrusive laws regulating who and where people can be move you in any way CLOSER to that libertarian ideal?
See, THIS is where "libertarians" and tea baggers, as they tend to express themselves here, lose me completely. They SAY they want freedom for everyone, freedom from government intrusion and involvement - but when it comes down to bras
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
And Rap, spare us your phony indignation and your crocodile tears about the poor, abused illegals who are the "kidnap victims". You don't give two fucks about these people, as you've so often and so adequately pointed out already, so don't try to blow smoke up our asses by claiming that your concern is for them.
That's the best you can muster ?
I'm not the one dismissing the kidnappings and harsh treatment of an entire group of people, simply because it doesn't fit my argument - THAT'S YOUR DEPARTMENT!
Care to show me where I did that?
By the way, you HAVE dismissed the kidnappings and harsh treatment (torture) of entire groups of people. You call them "terrorists", even though no evidence supporting that claim is required, no charges brought, no trial forthcoming. And you've said over and over again that you're fine with it.
So again, stop pretending that you care about these people. It's been made abundantly clear that you don't, and never have, and never will.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
I am one of the citizens of Arizona, and I can tell you that it doesn't matter how bad a problem is, or how upset it makes people.
Laws that have a strong potential for abuse are not the answer.
--Anthony
The majority of your fellow citizens disagree with you. They disagree that it doesn't matter how bad the problem is, as well as this law having a " strong potential " for abuse.
Heck, the MAJORITY of your fellow citizens voted for Al Gore in 2000. The MAJORITY of your fellow citizens favor a strong public option in health care. The MAJORITY of your fellow citizens voted overwhelmingly for Barack Obama for President, and voted in sweeping majorities of Democrats in both Houses of Congress.
Are you saying you ALWAYS support the majority, because they're always clearly right? Have you never thought the majority of your fellow citizens was wrong?
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"i never hear any criticism of the Mexican and S. American governments"
Hello,
I hereby criticize the Mexican and S. American governments. They are just awful.
I want to be much, much better than they are.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
You crazy dreamer, Anthony! You're nuts if you think we can be a better nation by NOT acting like corrupt, despotic, tyrannical banana republics! Maybe these right-wingers should change their party affiliation from Republican to Banana Republican.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
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It's been said that in the future, wars will be fought over water...(or is it food?) When people are piled upon people, everyone's quality of life goes in the toilet. This seems to be the destiny of areas of So Cal...
In the city next door to us, there are at least 200,000 "undocumented guests" throwing trash in the street, standing in the parking lot at Home Depot, parking decrepit old cars on their lawns, pushing 4 or 5 kids around in a shopping cart, etc.
When I worked on a crew that bought lunch from a "taco truck", one day I found 2 large pieces of broken glass in my burrito.
When I was kidding around with a plasterer I know and remarked; "in a couple of years, us gringos will be in the minority" He somewhat ominously replied; "You already are"
The ones who are crying "Arizona facist state!" have never been directly affected by illegals, and I have no sympathy.
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