Net Neutrality: Almost Gone

What's really weird is halfway through watching that Pentagon snuff video, Comcast cut my internet off for 24 hours.
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=42637

This was the same day Comcast won in the US Court of Appeals, allowing Comcast to throttle or block internet for its customers such as BitTorrent. Comcast hasn't cut my internet since prior Net Neutrality lawsuits stopped them.

Comcast v FCC, US Court of Appeals in DC, No. 08-1291, April 6, 2010
http://www.publicknowledge.org/pdf/comcast-decision.pdf
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbo=1&tbs=qdr:w&q=comcast+dc+court+
appeal+fcc&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

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I want the Gov't out of my internets.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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That's funny, Rappy, since government INVENTED the internet. You sound like the guy who didn't want government to interfere with his Medicare.

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?

Wasn't it invented at a university?

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Tim Berners Lee, at Cern - that's always been the one I've heard credited, but I don't doubt it was more than one person in more than one place.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
I want the Gov't out of my internets.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Better to have Comcast control what we see than to have regulation, huh.

Cuttin off your nose to spite yer face. Great.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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I disagree, Story - I got a list of dirt on Comcast you'd find hard to believe, up to and including them taking out an ad in a local paper *demanding* the residents of Farmington, MI recall their mayor for not handing them a total monopoly - and then retaliating severely when rebuffed.

I don't care for the idea of Gov regulation either, but in this case it's using a pair of evils to grind each other up instead of us.

I honestly prefer the Govs and the Corps at each others throats instead of mutually salivating over ours while sharpening the knife in tandem.

So that's my position on it.

-Frem

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NO, the internet was a DARPA project.

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DARPA's initial role was to jump start American research in technology, find safeguards against a space-based missile attack and to reclaim the technological lead from the USSR. After only 18 months after the creation of DARPA, the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency had developed and deployed the first US satellite. DARPA went on to have a direct contribution to the development of the Internet by appointing Joseph Licklider to head the new Information Processing Techniques Office (IPTO).
It was the job of the IPTO to further the work previously done by members of the "SAGE" (Semi-Automatic Ground Environment) program and develop technologies to protect the US against a space-based nuclear attack.
Licklider envisaged the potential benefits of a countrywide communications network, influencing his successors to implement his vision and to hire Lawrence Roberts who at that time was carrying out research with networks which was also being funded by DARPA.
Roberts led development of the ARPANet network architecture, and based it on the new idea of packet switching. A special computer called an Interface Message Processor was developed to realise the design. The ARPANet first went live in October 1969, with communications between the University of California in Los Angeles and the Stanford Research Institute.

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ah, okay. I new Stanford was involved somehow, but I couldn't remember the specifics.

But I've heard the CERN thing as well... Are we sure there weren't multiple groups who had the idea at around the same time? Are we sure this isn't propaganda to assert that the internet was an entirely American invention?

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I disagree, Story - I got a list of dirt on Comcast you'd find hard to believe, up to and including them taking out an ad in a local paper *demanding* the residents of Farmington, MI recall their mayor for not handing them a total monopoly - and then retaliating severely when rebuffed.

I don't care for the idea of Gov regulation either, but in this case it's using a pair of evils to grind each other up instead of us.



-Frem

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Uh....that's why I was being sarcastic-like.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Originally posted by Storymark:
Uh....that's why I was being sarcastic-like.

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Oh, sorry bout that.

Yeah, there doesn't really seem to be a "good" solution here so much as a varying degree of "not as bad as the other" kinda ones.

Makes one feel kinda like the cow as the two butchers argue over hamburger vs steak, dunnit ?

-F

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I signed & passed it along, FWIW.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Makes one feel kinda like the cow as the two butchers argue over hamburger vs steak, dunnit ?

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Where's Al Gore when ya need him?


The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by SignyM:
That's funny, Rappy, since government INVENTED the internet. You sound like the guy who didn't want government to interfere with his Medicare.

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Gov't did not " invent " the internet. It was private sector ingenuity that took the idea and ran with it....

It's about the free transfer of information. YOU want it to be controlled by the Gov't ?


Fuck that.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Gov't did not " invent " the internet.

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Yes,it did. It was a defense project to create an uninterruptable communication system that could be used in times of warfare. The concept was that data packets could be sent out on different pathways ... even use satellite communication... and still be reintegrated at the end. If you will notice, the initial players (besides DARPA) were universities. The first US satellite communication was by the government. The first geosynchronous comsats were launched by NASA (which BTW are still in orbit). The idea of geosynchronous orbits was first explored by soviet (government) rocket scientists and proposed by a science fiction write; Arthur Clarke. The launch vehicles were all government (Thor and Delta rockets) Even the router (CISCO) was invented by a university geek, Bill Yeager. Unfortunately,

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William (Bill) Yeager is 66 and still gets peeved when someone trots out the Silicon Valley fable about how the founders of Cisco invented the router. He was the guy at Stanford University that made it happen.

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www.networkworld.com/supp/2006/anniversary/032706-routerman.html

So AFA the "invention" of the internet, business was nowhere involved. Your denial is limitless, but at least other people can learn the facts, even if you can't.

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It was private sector ingenuity that took the idea and ran with it....

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There is a difference between inventing something and implementing it. But in the case of the internet, business did not do the main share of implementation. In fact, most of the servers worldwide run on some version of Linux and Sun, which are free software, and the protocols are agreed on by international standards bodies. www.w3.org www.isc.org

Funny thing is, business CAN take credit for blue-sky research... but you just haven't figured out what that was. Hint: Not the internet.

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It's about the free transfer of information. YOU want it to be controlled by the Gov't ?

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Here's the thing, Rappy: The government doesn't want the internet controlled by ANYONE. It's like the free speech clause in the Constitution. I know it's a little hard for you to grasp, since you seem to think that freedom drips from corporations like honey, but the government is trying to guarantee your totally unfettered access to the lines of communication.

You? Sheesh. Get some knowledge goin', boy, 'cause you don't know which side your bread is buttered on.

Or you're a big-time stock player, and you DO know, and you think we're stupid enough to buy your crap. Either way, go shovel it elsewhere.

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BTE Apparently Cern didn't get involved until the early 1980s.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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Gov't did not " invent " the internet.

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Yes,it did. It was a defense project to create an uninterruptable communication system that could be used in times of warfare. The concept was that data packets could be sent out on different pathways ... even use satellite communication... and still be reintegrated at the end. If you will notice, the initial players (besides DARPA) were universities. The first US satellite communication was by the government. The first geosynchronous comsats were launched by NASA (which BTW are still in orbit). The idea of geosynchronous orbits was first explored by soviet (government) rocket scientists and proposed by a science fiction write; Arthur Clarke. The launch vehicles were all government (Thor and Delta rockets) Even the router (CISCO) was invented by a university geek, Bill Yeager. Unfortunately,

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William (Bill) Yeager is 66 and still gets peeved when someone trots out the Silicon Valley fable about how the founders of Cisco invented the router. He was the guy at Stanford University that made it happen.

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www.networkworld.com/supp/2006/anniversary/032706-routerman.html

So AFA the "invention" of the internet, business was nowhere involved. Your denial is limitless, but at least other people can learn the facts, even if you can't.

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It was private sector ingenuity that took the idea and ran with it....

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There is a difference between inventing something and implementing it. But in the case of the internet, business did not do the main share of implementation. In fact, most of the servers worldwide run on some version of Linux and Sun, which are free software, and the protocols are agreed on by international standards bodies. www.w3.org www.isc.org

Funny thing is, business CAN take credit for blue-sky research... but you just haven't figured out what that was. Hint: Not the internet.

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It's about the free transfer of information. YOU want it to be controlled by the Gov't ?

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Here's the thing, Rappy: The government doesn't want the internet controlled by ANYONE. It's like the free speech clause in the Constitution. I know it's a little hard for you to grasp, since you seem to think that freedom drips from corporations like honey, but the government is trying to guarantee your totally unfettered access to the lines of communication.

You? Sheesh. Get some knowledge goin', boy, 'cause you don't know which side your bread is buttered on.

Or you're a big-time stock player, and you DO know, and you think we're stupid enough to buy your crap. Either way, go shovel it elsewhere.

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Signy, I bow to you. You are just awesome. :)

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Er... if I have anyone to thank, it's my hubby. He got deeply into computers back in the day when you had to toggle the "load" commands in binary into the front of the computer, and it would activate the paper-tape reader which held (what is now called) the BIOS (Basic Input Output System). And he only got deeper from there (although curiously, his real love is analog electronics). He actually made a personal computer long before Cromemco, IBM, Atari, or anyone else. (We still have it in the garage, I helped wire-wrap it, he designed it and wrote the BIOS. He even had hot-pluggable drives.) So I've learned a lot about the computing world, whether I wanted to or not!

I wish I could entice him onto the board, Kwicko. I think you'd really like talking to him. He's got your sense of logic!

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I learned something today! Hope I remember it. My memory is getting increasingly untrustworthy, and it was never that good to begin with.

The indecipherable sticky notes are the worst. Was I supposed to understand them somehow? Maybe they were put there by future me instead of past me, and the reason they don't make sense is because I don't have the necessary experience to understand them. Either way, I don't remember putting them there. And I really wish whoever is doing it would stop writing in CODE. Goddamn.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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It's about the free transfer of information. YOU want it to be controlled by the Gov't ?

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Here's the thing, Rappy: The government doesn't want the internet controlled by ANYONE. It's like the free speech clause in the Constitution. I know it's a little hard for you to grasp, since you seem to think that freedom drips from corporations like honey, but the government is trying to guarantee your totally unfettered access to the lines of communication.

You? Sheesh. Get some knowledge goin', boy, 'cause you don't know which side your bread is buttered on.

Or you're a big-time stock player, and you DO know, and you think we're stupid enough to buy your crap. Either way, go shovel it elsewhere.

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Just like the Gov't practiced free access of information with the Fairness Doctrine ? Man, you're such a gullible and deluded little Alliance suck up.

We all know, you long for the days when we had 3 networks, and f.m. radio stations only played the top 40 " best " songs - who needs to hear more than that,right? - and the a.m. dial was full of local swap meets, an old man reading the newspaper or some good old classical music. Maybe a few gospel hours, thrown in , just for good measure.

Spare me your sad analogy of having my bread buttered. In YOUR mind, we get what bread we are given by the Imperial Federal Gov't, and should be glad for it and anyone who has a problem with it should shut the hell up!


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Rappy: And you trust YOUR freedom to Comcast? I have NEVER seen a corporation write anything like the Constitution, staking a claim that you have a RIGHT to free speech... or any other rights, for that matter! Have you? If you have, please post them here. Take your time. I'll wait.

The immediate choice is very clear: Is your access to the internet controlled by corporations or not controlled at all?

That is the immediate question in front of you.

In this case, the government is acting properly ... performing its proper duties as a government... by standing up for YOUR RIGHTS to unbiased access versus business rights to control your access to internet content.

You're such a corporate today, you'd give your individual rights (and ours too) to the corporations.

Sheesh.

Talk about selling your soul.

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BYTE: Don't feel bad about your memory. I have a peculiar one. Some things stick forever. But I have a BIG white board in the kitchen, filled with reminders of what to buy- do: close our BoA account, check up in the new window delivery, order fish oil, file quarterly household employer taxes, find our passports (I put them away so carefully I can't remember where they went! ), the menu for the week... honestly, if I didn't write all this shit down I've have Somebody Important pounding on our door for something...

And yeah, I take B12 and fish oil.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Rappy: And you trust YOUR freedom to Comcast? I have NEVER seen a corporation write anything like the Constitution, staking a claim that you have a RIGHT to free speech... or any other rights, for that matter! Have you? If you have, please post them here. Take your time. I'll wait.

The issue is very clear: Is your access to the internet provided by the free market or COMPLETELY controlled by the Imperial Federal Gov't.

That is the immediate question in front of you.

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Fixed that for ya, dear.

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In this case, the government is acting properly ... performing its proper duties as a government... by standing up for YOUR RIGHTS to unbiased access versus business rights to control your access to internet content.

You're such a corporate today, you'd give your individual rights (and ours too) to the corporations.

Sheesh.

Talk about selling your soul.

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Freedom of the Press means no Gov't intervention. The Gov't can, if it wants, enter into the free market of ideas and offer its own voice, but it has NO right to limit, ban or censor FREE SPEECH.

Figured you'd have realized that by now.

Sadly, 'tis not the case.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Freedom of the Press means no Gov't intervention.

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EXCEPT where the government has to step in to ensure freedom of the press!

Rappy, do you have your head up your ass for the warmth?

You've got the issue 100% backwards... no doubt because you've been plugged in to Glenn Beck and fatso Limbaugh (BTW, is he ever leaving for Costa Rica? Or was he just making shit up again?)

"Net neutrality" is NOT about the government controlling internet content. It's not some sort of "fairness doctrine". The question is whether or not the owners of the physical lines, routers etc can determine the content on those lines. Can Comcast make this site inaccessible? Can AT&T make Google inaccessible? Can SBC block Amazon?

Net neutrality simply requires that "the net" treat all traffic equally, no matter the source or destination.

And what's YOUR argument? That the line owners SHOULD be able to determine what get communicated and to whom? That's a little like saying that Verizon should be able to prevent you from calling into the AT&T network!

In this case, the government is NOT banning free speech. What it is doing is ensuring free speech by ensuring equal access.

Like Mr. Universe said "You can't stop the signal, Mal". Only, you want to, Rappy.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Rappy, do you have your head up your ass for the warmth?

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Pointless, childish insult - check

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You've got the issue 100% backwards... no doubt because you've been plugged in to Glenn Beck and fatso Limbaugh (BTW, is he ever leaving for Costa Rica? Or was he just making shit up again?)

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Mindless diversionary tactics, offering up red herrings into the discussion - check

I believe Rush recently visited The Czech Republic, but you can read that for yourself.... http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_040710/content/01125112.gu
est.html

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"Net neutrality" is NOT about the government controlling internet content. It's not some sort of "fairness doctrine". The question is whether or not the owners of the physical lines, routers etc can determine the content on those lines. Can Comcast make this site inaccessible? Can AT&T make Google inaccessible? Can SBC block Amazon?

Net neutrality simply requires that "the net" simply treat all traffic equally, no matter the source or destination.

And what's YOUR argument? That the line owners SHOULD be able to determine what get communicated and to whom? That's a little like saying that Verizon should be able to prevent you from calling into the AT&T network!

In this case, the government is NOT banning free speech. What it is doing is ensuring free speech by ensuring equal access.

Like Mr. Universe said "You can't stop the signal, Mal". Only, you want to, Rappy.

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Compelling, but non persuasive. The interests in the free market dictates taht what the public wants, the public can get. If not, they'll go elsewhere. Under Gov't control ( and yes, that is what we're talking about here ) , you have no real say in the matter. It's Rick D's, NPR and Farm reports, 24/7.

This is the very essence of freedom. The WHY the internet poses such a risk to big Government. And why the old, archaic, monolithic MSM is reeling in subscription and viewer ship, because folks simply aren't buying the standard " do as we say, think as we think " mindset of the regulated ways of yesteryear.

Who is it, in SERENITY, which tries to hide their tracks, and limit access ? The Alliance, ( aka - The Imperial Federal GOv't ) ? Mr Universe is more on MY side, and it's not even by a little.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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The interests in the free market dictates taht what the public wants the public can get. If not, they'll go elsewhere

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Except in the case of monopolies or oligopolies when there is no "elsewhere". And particularly when (in this case) the carrier has a business interest in the content. Once a business gets large enough, it will dictate TO YOU. That is the failing of capitalism which you haven't yet clued in on... by the natural operation of the market (especially the stock market) and through forces such as economies of scale, businesses consolidate. The nature of capitalism is to ELIMINATE competition over time.

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Under Gov't control ( and yes, that is what we're talking about here ) , you have no real say in the matter.

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Again, you've got it 100% backwards. The government is not (in this case) seeking to "control" anything. And do you think you'd REALLY have a say in the matter if Comcast had control of your content? BTW

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I believe Rush recently visited The Czech Republic, but you can read that for yourself.

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Yeah, but that's not what he promised. Wrong place, wrong duration. Still waiting for him to move to Costa Rica!

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Originally posted by SignyM: Again, you've got it 100% backwards. The government is not (in this case) seeking to "control" anything. And do you think you'd REALLY have a say in the matter if Comcast had control of your content?

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Yes, I really do. I dropped Comcast, and all cable subscription, for several years. If I get to the point where I feel I need to do so again, I will.


I'm not afraid. Are you?


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Well, who controls your internet access as of this point? Verizon? AT&T? Comcast? SBC? And if they start monkeying with your content, who ya gonna call? Ghostbusters? And where ya gonna go? Costa Rica?

You depend on a business SOMEWHERE for basic access to communication. SOMEBODY owns the phone lines, the fiberoptics, the satellites. Sooner or later, you have to depend on SOME physical infrastructure. Do you want THEM controlling where you go, and what you see? And if you don't, what are your options? That is the question.

Anyway, out of here for today.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, who controls your internet access as of this point? Verizon? AT&T? Comcast? SBC? And if they start monkeying with your content, who ya gonna call? Ghostbusters? And where ya gonna go? Costa Rica?

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Wait..we have choices? More than 1 option for internet? Huh. Not what you alleged before.

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You depend on a business SOMEWHERE for basic access to communication. SOMEBODY owns the phone lines, the fiberoptics, the satellites. Sooner or later, you have to depend on SOME physical infrastructure. Do you want THEM controlling where you go, and what you see? And if you don't, what are your options? That is the question.

Anyway, out of here for today.

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I trust the free market FAR more than I trust the Government. Always.

The Founders were of like mind, too. Try and remember that, if ya can.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Irony being if a Republican was in the White House, Rappy would be going on about how necessary it is for the Gov. to be involved in the internet for security reasons.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wait..we have choices? More than 1 option for internet? Huh. Not what you alleged before.

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Actually, you don't, and that was my point. If you had even made a minor attempt to answer the question- check around your house for the PHYSICAL lines of internet communication - you would have realized that.

So, what ARE your choices? We have... Verizon. That's it. And you?

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I trust the free market FAR more than I trust the Government. Always.

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Even if the so-called free market is a monopoly? Then you're a fool.

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The Founders were of like mind, too. Try and remember that, if ya can.

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No they weren't. There is nothing in the Constitution about the protection of capitalism. But if you think so, be a good fellow and find it for us. Like I said before, I'll wait.

But in fact, back in the early days of independence, corporations were strictly controlled by the states.

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After independence, corporations received their charters from states and the charters were for a limited period, like 20 or 30 years, not in perpetuity. They were only allowed to deal in one commodity, they could not hold stock in other corporations, their property holdings were limited to what was necessary for their business, their headquarters had to be located in the state of their principle business, monopolies had their charges regulated by the state, and all corporate documents were open to the legislature. Any political contribution by a corporation was treated as a criminal offence.Corporations could, and often did, have their charters removed if the state considered that their activities harmed its people.

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www.feasta.org/documents/review2/unequal_protection.htm

"Freedom" to them did NOT mean "free markets", and certainly did not mean unfettered corporatism. As Jefferson said:

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If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.

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Also,

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"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country."

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Abraham Lincoln

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I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war. God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless."

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I learned something today! Hope I remember it. My memory is getting increasingly untrustworthy, and it was never that good to begin with.

The indecipherable sticky notes are the worst. Was I supposed to understand them somehow? Maybe they were put there by future me instead of past me, and the reason they don't make sense is because I don't have the necessary experience to understand them. Either way, I don't remember putting them there. And I really wish whoever is doing it would stop writing in CODE. Goddamn.

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There's a lot more to the story than what appears here...Some of what hasn't been told has been slipped down the memory hole...And , some of the story that is profferred to the somnambulant public IS propaganda...

Anyways , on a lighter note , I enjoyed the little personal tidbit , Byte...Reminded me just a bit of a film that I like ; if you haven't seen it , you might enjoy it :

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm650480640/tt0453467

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0453467/plotsummary

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bump

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Originally posted by Storymark:
Irony being if a Republican was in the White House, Rappy would be going on about how necessary it is for the Gov. to be involved in the internet for security reasons.

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Nonsense. Is that the best you have ?



Sig, as we've so plainly seen, by a stroke of the pen, the Fed Gov't can damn near do away with or take control of any corporation or industry. But that's a red herring, as far as this matter goes.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Compelling, but non persuasive. The interests in the free market dictates taht what the public wants, the public can get. If not, they'll go elsewhere. Under Gov't control ( and yes, that is what we're talking about here ) , you have no real say in the matter.

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I'm not so sure we have a free market. Corporations and government both have too much power, both have incentives to control information and by doing so control consumption and profits.

A problem exists in how consumers are willing to accept the convenience and cheap prices of a corporation over checking the excesses of a corporation and keeping the corporation honest and ethical. The appeal of a free market is that it should be self-policing. Corporations and the government both prevent the market from being self-policing for their own interests. They use lies/misinformation, cover up the truth, and work together to pass laws to make certain purchases mandatory and to regulate the industry, which drives out small local business.

No corporation can ever be completely under the gun of the government. They have money, power, and overseas connections; this is why corporations have recently been moving their power and employment base overseas. The US Gov't has a vested interest in keeping corporations HERE, and so tends to try to work with them and side with them more often than you might think.

The take over of the US automobile industry, as you note, and the much earlier takeover of the utilities industry was likely by the choice and according to the desire of both entities. Being under government control allows certain corporations unique protections, and also forces a mandate on the public to buy their products.

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This is the very essence of freedom. The WHY the internet poses such a risk to big Government.

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But this is true.

You just have to realize, though, that the internet poses the same risk for Corporations.

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Who is it, in SERENITY, which tries to hide their tracks, and limit access ? The Alliance, ( aka - The Imperial Federal GOv't ) ?

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Also true. But you forget that an entity called Blue Sun, a CORPORATION, exists that has very close and very suspicious ties with the Alliance.

Blue Sun created River Tam, judging by her reaction to Blue Sun labels. Blue Sun was a contractor working at the behest of Alliance officials, who even let said Alliance officials walk in to look at her, because they were making her for them.

Similarly, Miranda was likely a joint project between the Alliance and Blue Sun. Joss has said that he wanted to address the idea that Pax was something that Blue Sun had created, but he had to cut it because of movie length issues. I also note that Miranda is in the Blue Sun system, and I have my suspicions that terraforming on the planets in the Blue Sun system was done by Blue Sun the corporation.

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You make an excellent point on the incestuous relationship between governments and corporations. Save for one aspect. In the end of the day, it's the Gov't which can shut down and do away with a corporation far easier than can be done the other way around.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that one or the other entity is truly virtuous.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Ooooh, a battle royale between Blue Sun and the Alliance. Who would win? A government only has the power you want to give it, and the guns you might have given it to back that power up. Given enough of those guns, they might still come up on top.

On the other hand, weapons manufacturers are often happy dealing to anyone under the radar. A corporation that produces weapons (like Blue Sun secretly does) has an advantage against a government that another corporation doesn't, but it may not necessarily be a huge factor.

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Well Rappy, thankfully you've gotten off the mantra that the Founding Fathers were rabid corporatists. Let us not speak of it again.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Well Rappy, thankfully you've gotten off the mantra that the Founding Fathers were rabid corporatists. Let us not speak of it again.

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That was your interpretation of my view, not what I was saying. But showing the Founders were wary of big corporate entities doesn't then conclude that they weren't just as wary, or more so, of an over- reaching federal government.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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You make an excellent point on the incestuous relationship between governments and corporations. Save for one aspect. In the end of the day, it's the Gov't which can shut down and do away with a corporation far easier than can be done the other way around.

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Not necessarily. I suspect that if the government every truly threatened business interests... let's say, a major change in the laws governing business, such that most businesses forms and activities were to become illegal (for example returning to the form of "corporation" known in the early days of US independence) .... banks would collapse the economy and businesses would resort to assassination.

The difference to me is: Which entity can most likely be influenced by the people?

Well, look at their respective inputs: Business is a top-down tyranny with no direct input as to how it is run. (Even shareholders don't get much say.) The only influences (outside of government) that one MIGHT have are in the form of boycotts, strikes, and focused action by major investors (like pension funds).

Government takes input in the form of a vote.

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ETA: I see we cross-posted. Dang, you're up early!

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That was your interpretation of my view, not what I was saying. But showing the Founders were wary of big corporate entities doesn't then conclude that they weren't just as wary, or more so, of an over- reaching federal government.

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They were wary of BOTH.

But you have to think about the milieu they lived in. Then, most people were small farmers and small businesses. MOST people worked for themselves. Income distribution was MUCH flatter than today. Corporations, such as they were, were firmly under the heel of the state. The biggest concentration of power and wealth, and therefore the biggest problem of the day, was was an intrusive, at times brutal, tax-happy monarchy. The battle cry of the day was "No taxation without representation ... and therefore when they formed a government they were forced to create a system of representation (a goal several FF weren't happy with!) They spent more time talking about government because that was the problem of the time. The fact that some of them them talked about corporations and banks AT ALL tells me that they were looking ahead to the NEXT concentration of power... one that might not occur for centuries. In fact, I read quotes from a book The Founding Fathers (The latest edition is called The Founding Fathers Reconsidered www.amazon.com/Founding-Fathers-Reconsidered-R-B-Bernstein/dp/01953383
24) that several FF said, in so many words: This all works as long as people have free land to move to, and each person can have authority over their own livelihood. They seemed to understand that political democracy only works in the context of economic equality.

So anyway, here we are in 2010, and the question is: What would the FF think now? Well, considering they were a disparate group... some were lawyers, some were slaveholders, some were businessmen and others independent farmers... they would probably have a lot of different thoughts on the topic. But I think the first thing they would think is This isn't what we intended. They would likely pick out five or six things where they felt we'd gone seriously wrong:

Foreign adventurism. They'd look at our military presence around the world and likely think- WTF are you doing??? You've turned into King George!

Banks. They'd look at how the USA issues its currency and most likely think- You can't POSSIBLY think that the government can follow an independent line of policy if its balls are held by another entity!

Corporations. They'd look at our current business forms and prolly have another "WTF??" moment. They'd likely be thinking... Hey, we threw out the East India Company! Now you're ruled by its progeny!

Debt. I suspect they would look at our debt and say: You've gotten yourselves into a shitload of trouble. W

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SignyM:

Government takes input in the form of a vote.

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Oh, it takes input, but at the end of the day, it's even more likely to do what ever the hell it wants.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Oh, it takes input, but at the end of the day, it's even more likely to do what ever the hell it wants.

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And business is better???

An active public WILL have its way in government, Rappy. I know you're unhappy about the HCR vote (so am I, but for a different reason) but your view is a MINORITY view. SO don't feel that your views weren't listened to. They were. They just didn't carry the day.

And don't forget that, as far as business is concerned, it is even MORE guilty of imposing itself on people. Not only does it not have ANY mechanism for peaceful evolution, it's entire mandate is to GET RICH... perforce, impoverishing most people.

Anyway, as you can see we cross-posted more than once, so if you scroll up you'll find a lot more in my previous post.

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I'm unhappy at the Gov't ignoring the will of the people on HCR.

My view is NOT the minority view. Sorry. This is not a mob rule democracy. Nor should it be.

I'm unhappy at Bush ignoring the will of the people when it came to immigration.

I'm unhappy at the Gov't for a lot of reasons, Dem or Repub, seems to make no difference.


But with business, I have a choice. Not so w/ my Gov't.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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I'm unhappy at the Gov't ignoring the will of the people on HCR.

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Me too. The will of the people was for a PUBLIC OPTION.

Poll after poll after poll showed that it had far greater support than the weasely, private-insurance-based Senate plan! Your views were in the MINORITY. Sorry Rappy, but that is a fact. You can mentally run and you can mentally hide, but it doesn't change reality.

But if you will notice a pattern, where the government deviates from "the will of the people" it is to the benefit of BIG BUSINESS. Since big business seems to be your patron saint... what's your problem?

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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I'm unhappy at the Gov't ignoring the will of the people on HCR.

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Me too. The will of the people was for a PUBLIC OPTION.

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No, it wasn't. That was just the will of the extreme, very far Left. Thankfully, we're not that country.

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Poll after poll after poll showed that it had far greater support than the weasely, private-insurance-based Senate plan!

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No such polls exists. Couched questions and misleading comparisons aren't really relevant to the issue anyways. When fully explained, on what SHOULD be done and what ObamaCare does, most Americans would opt out of the latter.

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Your views were in the MINORITY. Sorry Rappy, but that is a fact. You can mentally run and you can mentally hide, but it doesn't change reality.

But if you will notice a pattern, where the government deviates from "the will of the people" it is to the benefit of BIG BUSINESS. Since big business seems to be your patron saint... what's your problem?

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My PROBLEM is that, unlike with big business, I can't opt out of the Gov't intruding into my life. I can choose another company to do business with, or not do business with any , if I so choose, but where do I go when the Gov't is forcing me, under threat of imprisonment and w/ the force of a gun, to do what it says.

You're quite happy being meddled with, being told what to do, what to think, as long as it's by YOUR brand of master.

Me? Not so much. Don't reckon that's likely to change any time soon, either.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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No, it wasn't. That was just the will of the extreme, very far Left. Thankfully, we're not that country.

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Except 51+% of us, which.. last time I checked... is called a majority.
Poll: Majority of Iowans favor public insurance option
http://iowaindependent.com/28532/poll-majority-of-iowans-favor-public-
insurance-option

Poll: Majority in N.C. favors public option
www.wral.com/news/local/story/6329551/

Public option gains support: CLEAR MAJORITY NOW BACKS PLAN
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/19/AR20091019024
51.html

Support for Public Options Remains Strong, Polls Show
www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-5401123-503544.html

I could go on an on, but if you notice, this info is from state and local polls as well as national. Wherever you're getting your info is seriously wrong. And I'm gonna ask you: Who benefits from the current HCR?

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or not do business with any, if I so choose

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Oh yeah? Good luck with that!

So, for the foreseeable future... don't use any electricity, natural gas, water, gasoline, or diesel. Don't communicate. Don't use any software. Don't watch TV or listen to radio. Don't buy any food. Don't get medical care. Don't buy any cars, furniture, appliances ... or anything else, for that matter. Don't use currency. Don't bank. For God's sake, DON'T trade stocks, corporate bonds, or anything else! Don't work for a big business.

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I'm unhappy at Bush ignoring the will of the people when it came to immigration.

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Gonna drill down on this for the moment: Who benefits from illegal immigration, again?

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Again, polls are meaningless when they're asking the wrong questions and misleading the issue.

Drum up 1000 different polls, if you want, I'm not buying it. No amount of opinion polls can convince me that the Gov't has the right to a piece of my life so as to give to another person. That's what this is all about.

And you set up a false premise when you say...

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don't use any electricity, natural gas, water, gasoline, or diesel. Don't communicate. Don't use any software. Don't watch TV or listen to radio. Don't buy any food. Don't get medical care. Don't buy any cars, furniture, appliances ... or anything else, for that matter. Don't use currency. Don't bank. For God's sake, DON'T trade stocks, corporate bonds, or anything else! Don't work for a big business.

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That is simply beyond absurdity and has no part in the discussion at hand. I have to take, from what I see YOU say, that all these things should be provided by 1 source, that being the Gov't., right ?




Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Translation: polls are meaningless when they say something Rappy's desperately trying to live in denial about.

I wish I had options as to who to get internet from. At my last address I called every company I could find in the phone book, they told me flat out: we CANNOT provide you service because Comcast owns your neighborhood.

Free market? Whatever.

Sygnym - thanks for the info about the FF and their ideas about corporatism. I hadn't known any of that. Makes me sad, to see how the corporations have slowly inched their way in until they very nearly own our govt. You're completely right - the only way we can fix this mess is through govt, if we can just break it free. The corporations will never change themselves. Rappy's just whacked (but we already knew that, huh?)


-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Again, polls are meaningless when they're asking the wrong questions and misleading the issue.

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Here's one Iowa question:

Would you favor or oppose the national government offering everyone the choice of buying into a government administered health plan insurance- something like Medicare coverage that people 65 or older get- that would compete with private plans?

Really, the question is about as clear as you can get!

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Other than the fact that Medicate is a unmitigated disaster ?

Adding that finer point into the question might make some choose differently.

But I'm clearly bought and paid for by Big Insurance, right ?

Sure, you can ASK if folks want free puppies, ponies and a life time supply of gummy bears, but at what price? Once it's explained to them .....oh, never mind. American Idol's on soon, and I need to go update my Twitter feed.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Here again you are trying to have a reasonable discussion with Crappy?

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Drum up 1000 different polls, if you want, I'm not buying it.

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Come ON...if that's not "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts", what is?

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Polls are meaningless when they say something Rappy's desperately trying to live in denial about.

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Listen to the man; he's right.

Why you waste time trying to get through, Sig, I will never understand. Even tho' I've not been here long, I get that doing so is useless. He lives in another world, and will never dare peek at the real one; he'd probably implode.

What a waste of your valuable time! It's your time, of course, but there are so much more interesting things to talk to REAL PEOPLE about...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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