Real World Event Discussions

Students, professors to protest education cutbacks

POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 6, 2024 14:05
VIEWED: 9750
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NIKI2

Thursday, March 4, 2010 8:27 PM

Berserkely is at it again, as usual. This has been an ongoing problem since the Govenator considered the education budget his own private playground:

Quote:
The media was out in full force in anticipation of today’s “Day of Action”: There were about as many news cameras as there were demonstrators at the intersection of Bancroft and Telegraph this morning as today’s protests against cuts to California public education got underway at UC Berkeley.

Crowds grew as the morning wore on, until Sather Gate was completely blocked by protesters chanting “No cuts! No fees! Education must be free!” and “Layoff Yudof,” referring to the deeply unpopular president of the UC system.

Picket lines were in effect at the Sather Gate, North Gate, and West Gate entrances to campus, and around California Hall, and are expected to remain until noon, when protesters plan to march from UC Berkeley to Oakland for a rally at Frank Ogawa Plaza, at 14th and Broadway.

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/92510/archives/2010/03/04/protest-underw
ay-at-uc-berkeley

At least they're not alone:

Quote:
A movement born of $1 billion in budget cuts to California's state university system has blossomed into a nationwide protest, as students and professors in 33 states will challenge administrators and state lawmakers to ante up.

Most of Thursday's demonstrations will focus on cuts to state-funded colleges and universities, which supporters say drive up tuition, limit classes and make higher education unobtainable to many.

A blog called Student Activism said in a Twitter update that 122 events are slated from coast to coast -- most on campuses, and some at state capitals.

Dissatisfaction, anger and an uncertain future have led professors and students to call for a day of action to defend education.

(more at http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/04/us.day.of.action/index.html?hpt=T2

Interactive map of states participating in protests across the nation today at http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/04/us.day.of.action/index.html?hpt=T2

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

MINCINGBEAST

Thursday, March 4, 2010 8:39 PM

my heart goes out to these kids. seriously.

but amidst all of the protests, and anger, i do not detect an alertnative to the cuts. the message seems to be: cutting education sucks and is evil. ok. but what can we cut instead, and what are other ways to make up the short fall?

absent some other solution, the financial reality is that educational funding is being cut to the bone. protests, while emotionally satisfying, do not "move the needle." might as well protest being broke.

NIKI2

Thursday, March 4, 2010 8:52 PM

They are working on other stuff, this is just what gets media. OUR problem is the govenator--he's put us in such a position that education funding now has to be cut, but if he hadn't had his finger in the till on it all along, we wouldn't be as bad off.

Education has to be a priority, to me. How about cutting some salaries outside education, like bureaucrats? Unworkable I know, but I'm allowed to dream. There are I'm sure many programs that, if they went through the budget, could be cut to produce funds...anyone ever see "Dave"? Okay, so I like to imagine fantasies as possible, but don't lump me with the wind who thrives on TV and move heroes, please!

Arizona:

Quote:
Ted Ferris said he'll be open to anything when he leads a panel to recommend alternatives to higher-education cuts as Arizona faces a $3 billion budget deficit for the coming fiscal year.

That's why the Arizona Board of Regents assembled the Fiscal Alternative Choices Team, said Ferris, former head of the Arizona Sports and Tourism Authority - to offer ideas.

"The regents just want to make sure, for the sake of higher education and education generally in this state, to include as many creative ideas as possible," Ferris said in a telephone interview Monday.

Nationwide:

Quote:
Already, 27 states have announced education cuts. In California, a state that teeters on the edge of bankruptcy, Governor Schwarzenegger has slashed $2.5 billion for K-12 education. New York is gutting $2.5 billion from public universities and colleges.

State leaders warn they have no choice. But cuts are not the only option. Rather, cuts are the policy demanded by big business in this situation. Over the past period, big business has fought for tax breaks and bailouts, inevitably paid for with cuts elsewhere, like in education

California:

Quote:
An economic recession, even a severe one, need not mean we are doomed to endure spending cuts in education and other services. It’s time to recall that it was in the middle of the worst of economic times—the Great Depression of the 1930s—that Americans were able to win the most expansive increase in social programs by going into the streets to demand a reordering of social priorities.

If social programs could be established and funded in the Great Depression, they certainly can be now. California, like the nation as a whole, has enormous wealth. Unfortunately over the course of the last 30 years much of that wealth has been flowing upwards from working and middle class families to the corporations and the wealthiest 10 percent of the population. Recent Congressional Budget Office reports indicate that in 2005 the income of the wealthiest 3 million Americans was approximately equal to that of the bottom 166 million.

It's a start...

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:19 PM

Unfortunately, their protests are not going to produce much. California has more problems than probably any other state......gigantic budget deficit, un-funded union pension deals for eternity, energy shortages, bankrupt health system, bankrupt cities, a declining tax base, and out of control illegal immigration. And now the Legislature, in its' infinite wisdom, has come up with a great new plan....Make cursing illegal, and issue fines to people for bad language! I'm not joking, there is a measure in the Captol now to do just that. In many ways it's a look into the possible future of America.

MINCINGBEAST

Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:25 PM

i have friends, berzerklers, at the protests, and their suggestion is basically: RAISE TEH TAXES ON TEH CORPORATIONS! so, not really an alterantive, though i recognize they don't speak for the larger protests.

and granted, i generally think that protests are not necessarily the most persuasive tools.

the anti-cursing stuff is part of a large phenomenon of commemorative legislation. you know, the process that brought you national avocado day, and trans-gender-appreciation-awareness-and-guilt week. now we have talk like a school marm week! this stuff is popular, because it 1) involves glad handling 2) allows for pious bloviating and 3) costs no money. whats worse, is that the anti-cursing legislation is in part inspired by a high school student's crusade against colorful language. the little bitch.

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:27 PM

You owe Arnold $10!

MINCINGBEAST

Thursday, March 4, 2010 9:44 PM

in other news, california's funding short fall was solved today by the state's new anti-cursing legislation.

"i can't fucking beleive that the goddamn state of California sent me a bill for 5 billion fucking dollars," said mincingbeast. "Might as well try to squeeze jizz from a stone, assholes. I would like to invite all Californians, collectively, to kiss my goddamn ass."

Mincingbeast later specified that he was reffering to "the bad part of his ass."

RUE

Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:08 PM

California is largely a victim it's constitution - and a Ronald Reagan mindset.

By constitution, California isn't allowed to retain a meaningful surplus from the good years to tide it over in the bad ones. Bad move, there.

The constitution REQUIRES a supermajority to pass the yearly budget. Every single year. (California. A constitutional provision dating back to 1933 requires a two-thirds vote for general fund appropriations for purposes other than public schools)

The constitution allows for the proposition process. It was that process that gave it mind-numbingly bad Prop 13, benefiting large landholders (railways, utilities, refineries, commercial real-estate holders) who will NEVER see their property taxes go up - as property taxes are only revalued on sale.

That same proposition process created term limits for legislators - Prop 140 in 1990. That guarantees that only the best funded (read business-supported) newcomers will gain seats. Bad idea if you're looking for a legislature to represent the people.

It's that self-same constitution that allows bond measures to be put on the ballot. And they are ALWAYS pitched as 'something for nothing' b/c, as they ALWAYS proclaim - WITH NO NEW TAXES !

BTW - that Ronald Reagan mindset causes many problems. The idea that somehow taxes are the big evil, instead of a necessary function to pay for common infrastructure.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

MINCINGBEAST

Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:22 PM

fair points rue. taxes are the price we pay for civilization: this is not a new idea. in california, we seem to believe that civilization is something that we need not pay, nor work for, so long as we are californian enough.

californians generally evidence an absolute sense of entitlement, complete naivety, and stubborn belief that we can have all of the warm-and-fuzzy services that we desire, without paying for them. sort of the worst impulses of conservatives and liberals conspiring to produce a failed state.

GINOBIFFARONI

Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:44 PM

Perhaps the school needs to spend its money more wisely...

Maybe eliminate some programs that may not lead to employment opportunitys for the graduates, perhaps other programs with similar themes should be merged together...

http://grad.berkeley.edu/programs/list.shtml

African American Studies
Asian Studies¹
Buddhist Studies¹
Ethnic Studies¹
Folklore¹
Jewish Studies¹
Near Eastern Religions
Rhetoric

If someone want to have a degree in basket weaving that is well and good... but public money needs to go to programs that have some public benefit...

STORYMARK

Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
And now the Legislature, in its' infinite wisdom, has come up with a great new plan....Make cursing illegal, and issue fines to people for bad language! I'm not joking, there is a measure in the Captol now to do just that. In many ways it's a look into the possible future of America.

Next they'll tell you to use the three shells!

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

AURAPTOR

Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:56 PM

Quote:

School fires entire teaching staff

ASSOCIATED PRESS
Last Updated: 10:50 PM, February 24, 2010
Posted: 1:44 PM, February 24, 2010

CENTRAL FALLS, R.I. — A Rhode Island school district has voted to fire all the teachers at an underperforming school.
The Central Falls School Committee voted Tuesday evening to fire every educator at Central Falls High School at the end of the school year.
It's the only school in the tiny, impoverished city north of Providence. Only about half its students graduate, and only 7 percent of 11th-graders were proficient in math in 2009.
The plan was developed because of a federal effort to makeover failing schools.
The Central Falls Teachers Union says it is reviewing legal options and hasn't decided what action to take.
Education Secretary Arne Duncan applauds the decision and says "when schools continue to struggle we have a collective obligation to take action."

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/all_teachers_fired_at_underperfo
rming_X3nqPRBXONpxFpMSNritAN#ixzz0hFeHWuLk

They should stop their bitchin' and remember their place.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

RUE

Thursday, March 4, 2010 11:11 PM

"Next they'll tell you to use the three shells!"

How do you load a shotgun with three ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

RUE

Thursday, March 4, 2010 11:26 PM

"... public money needs to go to programs that have some public benefit..."

I disagree with your very narrow definition.

In your example, education should stop at high school. Everything you need to know to get a job you can learn in high shcool, if the curriculum is structured correctly.

Or maybe you think college is necessary for SOME jobs that need higher learning. In that case colleges should only graduate engineers, doctors, people with learning that has PRACTICAL application. Theoretical mathematics ? Gone. Physics ? Poof ! Theoretical chemistry ? Erased.

Or maybe you concede that SOME higher learning that doesn't have immediate application should be allowed. After all, how can society make technological progress without people pushing the boundaries of the known ? But then you have created idiot savants, people who know what to do and how to do it - but not why, or if, in fact, it should be done. As long as the money is good and someone is willing to pay, is as far as the logic goes.

Well, maybe it might be OK if SOME people learned history, logic, and rhetoric. Oooey gooey soft stuff that addresses things like - what are we assuming ? How did we get here ? Where should we go from here ?

Or maybe, just maybe, a population that is truly educated is a better, more thoughtful, more aware society.

***************************************************************

BTW - this is from a person whose every degree is scientific.

STORYMARK

Thursday, March 4, 2010 11:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Next they'll tell you to use the three shells!"

How do you load a shotgun with three ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Not the reference I was makin'.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

RUE

Thursday, March 4, 2010 11:34 PM

I was joking - I guess it was pretty lame.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

KWICKO

Thursday, March 4, 2010 11:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Next they'll tell you to use the three shells!"

How do you load a shotgun with three ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Saiga 12 gauge with drum magazine.

Only three? But it's got room for 30!

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

RUE

Thursday, March 4, 2010 11:45 PM

After all - why settle for one bird when you can get the whole goddamn flock !
Signed

Burt Gummer

That was pretty lame too, hunh ? OK, I'll go away now.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, March 5, 2010 2:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"... public money needs to go to programs that have some public benefit..."

I disagree with your very narrow definition.

In your example, education should stop at high school. Everything you need to know to get a job you can learn in high shcool, if the curriculum is structured correctly.

Or maybe you think college is necessary for SOME jobs that need higher learning. In that case colleges should only graduate engineers, doctors, people with learning that has PRACTICAL application. Theoretical mathematics ? Gone. Physics ? Poof ! Theoretical chemistry ? Erased.

Or maybe you concede that SOME higher learning that doesn't have immediate application should be allowed. After all, how can society make technological progress without people pushing the boundaries of the known ? But then you have created idiot savants, people who know what to do and how to do it - but not why, or if, in fact, it should be done. As long as the money is good and someone is willing to pay, is as far as the logic goes.

Well, maybe it might be OK if SOME people learned history, logic, and rhetoric. Oooey gooey soft stuff that addresses things like - what are we assuming ? How did we get here ? Where should we go from here ?

Or maybe, just maybe, a population that is truly educated is a better, more thoughtful, more aware society.

***************************************************************

BTW - this is from a person whose every degree is scientific.

I agree where you think I disagree

theoretical sciences, research, practical engineering... all have very real public benefits

some of the other things might be good as a class, but is ridiculous as a degree program.

And if there is a place for it as a degree program, private donations and interest groups should foot the bill.

A BA in Jewish Studys ?

I'm all for people having a well rounded view of the world, I would argue that you do not get that rounded in school...

but if you are cutting back course because you can't pay for things...

Keep the things that have immediate value, if and when you can afford the basket weaving stuff.. sure why not. But to allow it to interfere with putting out doctors, chemists, engineers, etc

I think that is irresponsible

RUE

Friday, March 5, 2010 2:48 AM

I kind of agree ... and kind of disagree.

FWIW, at this point in time the majority of graduate students in the 'hard sciences' come from overseas. After all, the prevailing US attitude is - why work really, really hard at something if it doesn't make you rich ?

And then, many of the new-minted chemists I work with are depressingly narrow-minded techno-drones. Their attitude seems to be - I worked really, really hard to learn how to do this narrow field - now show me the money.

While I can understand the feeling that people should economize in tough times, I think ditching what we used to call 'fluff' classes, or even majors, would simply drive those above trends further. Those who will not go into the sciences or different types of engineering will go into business, and those who go into science or engineering will become even more myopic than now.

FWIW I came up through the 70s, when universities were tightly attuned to society due to the Vietnam War and the hippie movement. New degrees never seen before like 'Women's Studies', and 'Environmental Studies' were being offered. I even took those classes - they were interesting and helped me broaden my outlook. Otherwise I would have remained a provincial geek. And it didn't seem to hurt our generation any to have them.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, March 5, 2010 2:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
And now the Legislature, in its' infinite wisdom, has come up with a great new plan....Make cursing illegal, and issue fines to people for bad language! I'm not joking, there is a measure in the Captol now to do just that. In many ways it's a look into the possible future of America.

Next they'll tell you to use the three shells!

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

Somebody watched Demolition Man recently

John Spartan: [whispering to Lenina] Look, I don't know if you guys know it, but uh... you're out of toilet paper.
Alfredo Garcia: [confused] Did... did you say toilet *paper*?
Lenina Huxley: Um... they used handfuls of wadded paper back in the 20th...
[Lenina, Alfredo, and Erwin all laugh]
John Spartan: I'm happy that you're happy, but the place where you're supposed to have the toilet paper, you've got this little shelf with three seashells on it.
Erwin: He doesn't know how to use the three seashells!
[Erwin continues to laugh, then calms down]
Erwin: I can see how that could be confusing.

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, March 5, 2010 3:03 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, March 5, 2010 3:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I kind of agree ... and kind of disagree.

FWIW, at this point in time the majority of graduate students in the 'hard sciences' come from overseas. After all, the prevailing US attitude is - why work really, really hard at something if it doesn't make you rich ?

And then, many of the new-minted chemists I work with are depressingly narrow-minded techno-drones. Their attitude seems to be - I worked really, really hard to learn how to do this narrow field - now show me the money.

While I can understand the feeling that people should economize in tough times, I think ditching what we used to call 'fluff' classes, or even majors, would simply drive those above trends further. Those who will not go into the sciences or different types of engineering will go into business, and those who go into science or engineering will become even more myopic than now.

FWIW I came up through the 70s, when universities were tightly attuned to society due to the Vietnam War and the hippie movement. New degrees never seen before like 'Women's Studies', and 'Environmental Studies' were being offered. I even took those classes - they were interesting and helped me broaden my outlook. Otherwise I would have remained a provincial geek. And it didn't seem to hurt our generation any to have them.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

As a class, sure

But to take it as a degree?

Women's Studies... I think belongs as part of a social sciences program, not as a stand alone field...

cross field applications should be encouraged, but still be useful

Environmental Studies and chemistry

physics and engineering

hell business and any science degree

all these have niches that could make you rich, particularly if it was your passion

RUE

Friday, March 5, 2010 3:22 AM

I think we are mis-communicating. I don't think the individual purpose of education should be to get rich (money). I'm not decided about measuring the social benefits and costs of education. Should they be measured in money ? Is there a better measure ?

Anyway, I'm open to more discussion, but I'll have to leave it for another day.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, March 5, 2010 4:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I think we are mis-communicating. I don't think the individual purpose of education should be to get rich (money). I'm not decided about measuring the social benefits and costs of education. Should they be measured in money ? Is there a better measure ?

Anyway, I'm open to more discussion, but I'll have to leave it for another day.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Education should lead to something employment wise, shouldn't it ?

Otherwise we have people with educations partly paid for by society, then having to pay them unemployment... or coffee house employees with degree making minimum wage...

Maybe money is the wrong measure, I would say usefulness should be it, but that translates into money as well...

I thing degree programs should have applicable value, or be paid for %100 by whatever private interests that desire them...

KWICKO

Friday, March 5, 2010 4:27 AM

So, no taking classes just for knowledge's sake? Hell, there goes about 80 hours of my course load... (all paid for by ME, thank you very much).

I often took classes "just because" - just because I was interested (but not because I wanted a job in that field - I knew I wasn't going to be a particle physicist or an astronomer, or a history or government professor). Some of those classes even led me off into different fields of study, which I'd have never been exposed to if I was ONLY going to school to find out what my job was supposed to be.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

STORYMARK

Friday, March 5, 2010 4:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
And now the Legislature, in its' infinite wisdom, has come up with a great new plan....Make cursing illegal, and issue fines to people for bad language! I'm not joking, there is a measure in the Captol now to do just that. In many ways it's a look into the possible future of America.

Next they'll tell you to use the three shells!

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

Somebody watched Demolition Man recently

Thank you!

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, March 5, 2010 6:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So, no taking classes just for knowledge's sake? Hell, there goes about 80 hours of my course load... (all paid for by ME, thank you very much).

I often took classes "just because" - just because I was interested (but not because I wanted a job in that field - I knew I wasn't going to be a particle physicist or an astronomer, or a history or government professor). Some of those classes even led me off into different fields of study, which I'd have never been exposed to if I was ONLY going to school to find out what my job was supposed to be.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

the point I'm trying to make

taking classes good, even just for fun

taking a degree program that leads nowhere bad

plus Mike, you paid the course fees... I'm guessing the school also received supplemental funding from state and federal sources which kept those course fees low enough to be almost reasonable ...

and that is really the money we are talking about,

But if you racked up three or four years ( or more ) of student loans, grants, etc to get a degree in Jewish Studies, or Rhetoric, or Folklore... then you graduate... then what are you going to do?

Classes good, but not the whole shot...

I have friends who did similar things...

then defaulted on their loans, worked crap jobs trying to get enough money together to take the classes they should have at the start...

its ugly

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

RUE

Friday, March 5, 2010 3:59 PM

Gino

Your question is very philosophical, but incomplete. Useful for what ? Productive to whom ?

Let me propose a hypothetical society. For lack of a better term I'll call them Karalians. Everyone who can works enough to meet their needs and have a measure of security, and to support those who are too young, too old or too infirm to work. No one is very rich or powerful, but no one is very poor and powerless either. These Karalians love art, music and dance. They lovingly pour much time into teaching their children to sing and play the traditional songs, to dance the group dances, and to create beautiful art to give away to those they love and like. It even may be a society you would like to live in, if you had the chance. So, after years of this effort, the children are grown. Should the parents now be asking - but are they useful ? Are they productive ? Why did we waste our time on them this way ?

In societies of artificial dearth like ours, your questions make one kind of sense. But in the range of possibilities, they are unnecessarily restrictive.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

PIRATENEWS

Friday, March 5, 2010 5:09 PM

If govt would quit stealing $70-trillion/year from govt CAFR "pension" funds, nobody would have to pay taxes nor tuition of any kind. Govt has kept 2 sets of books since the 1950s, based on billionaire Al Capone's successful model in Chicago.

This proves how stoopid students and teachers are, who never heard of CAFRs, which are a censored topic for all degree programs.

Comprehensive Annual Financial Report for govt, a/k/a Annual Financial Report for universities
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5823209513192072459
http://cafr1.com
http://cafrman.com

Search your local CAFRs
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS346US346&aq=f&sourceid=ch
rome&ie=UTF-8&q=cafr

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, March 5, 2010 5:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Gino

Your question is very philosophical, but incomplete. Useful for what ? Productive to whom ?

Let me propose a hypothetical society. For lack of a better term I'll call them Karalians. Everyone who can works enough to meet their needs and have a measure of security, and to support those who are too young, too old or too infirm to work. No one is very rich or powerful, but no one is very poor and powerless either. These Karalians love art, music and dance. They lovingly pour much time into teaching their children to sing and play the traditional songs, to dance the group dances, and to create beautiful art to give away to those they love and like. It even be may be a society you would like to live in, if you had the chance. So, after years of this effort, the children are grown. Should the parents now be asking - but are they useful ? Are they productive ? Why did we waste our time on them this way ?

In societies of artificial dearth like ours, your questions make one kind of sense. But in the range of possibilities, they are unnecessarily restrictive.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

This is my point " Everyone who can works enough to meet their needs and have a measure of security, and to support those who are too young, too old or too infirm to work. "

Some of these programs produce at a cost, people who are not too young, or old, or infirm who still cannot meet their own needs, have a debt load due to their share of their education cost, have no security, and are unable to contribute to the security of others...

If these people REALLY need to go to that place, non government funded ways should be available to them...

Once again, Engineers who take art classes is a good thing

Chemists who study dance is a good thing

Lawyers who take cultural studies course is a good thing

taking a degree in folklore, defaulting on your student loans because the only job you can find after graduation is in a coffee shop is a bad thing

Bad for the person, who set themselves back years for an education that doesn't meet their own need for security or support. Bad for the government who invested in that education, likely bad for that persons family who threw money in as well, only to witness their " student " enter poverty as a result.

MINCINGBEAST

Friday, March 5, 2010 5:34 PM

education is getting cut. there is absolutely no way around this short term, and there is plenty of blame to assign. nobody disagrees that cutting education hurts, but if any positive effect comes from the protests, it will merely be venting frustration with the economic reality we face. of course, i'd be frustrated too if the funding that puts students in seats was slashed, while administrators and other worthless bureucrats continue to receive lucrative salaries.

i'm with gino on this one. i don't not beleive that classes in say, jewish studies or african american studies are valueless. these classes, and majors, represent important areas of knowledge that are worth developing. but, as a fellow who earned a BA with very little applicability or carry over for a job, i can not agree that a degree in Literature is as socially valuable as a degree in Engingeering. while there are certainly "soft" benefits in having people exposed to these degrees, the fact is, certain classes are low hanging fruit.

EDIT: "taking a degree in folklore, defaulting on your student loans because the only job you can find after graduation is in a coffee shop is a bad thing"

crap, which i would've read that before posting my incoherent reply. excellent point! and the sad thing is, this hypo describes the majority of people that I know that came out of the UC system. it would've described me, too, had I not sold out and learned to enjoy the taste of blood.

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, March 5, 2010 5:45 PM

Another point...

back in high school I remember having to contend with teachers with education degrees

and no experience or background with anything else...

I had a math teacher I cornered one day while working on some problems, and I asked " How do you apply this ? "

She didn't have a clue as to any practical use for what she was trying to teach... She was repeating what was in the book with no real understanding of it at all...

Education Degree, ten years teaching math... = Fail

Someone set a trashcan on fire in the hallway, and she didn't even know how to work an extinguisher...

Later, I went through Math Courses taught by engineers and designers... and my grades were higher.. I had a much better understanding of the material as when I asked " How do you use this " the answer would be something I could picture and relate to... which is how many people learn.

So even with both a education degree, and a decade of experience... was this teacher living to her potential, or did her education fail her even though it provided security...

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, March 5, 2010 5:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
education is getting cut. there is absolutely no way around this short term, and there is plenty of blame to assign. nobody disagrees that cutting education hurts, but if any positive effect comes from the protests, it will merely be venting frustration with the economic reality we face. of course, i'd be frustrated too if the funding that puts students in seats was slashed, while administrators and other worthless bureucrats continue to receive lucrative salaries.

i'm with gino on this one. i don't not beleive that classes in say, jewish studies or african american studies are valueless. these classes, and majors, represent important areas of knowledge that are worth developing. but, as a fellow who earned a BA with very little applicability or carry over for a job, i can not agree that a degree in Literature is as socially valuable as a degree in Engingeering. while there are certainly "soft" benefits in having people exposed to these degrees, the fact is, certain classes are low hanging fruit.

EDIT: "taking a degree in folklore, defaulting on your student loans because the only job you can find after graduation is in a coffee shop is a bad thing"

crap, which i would've read that before posting my incoherent reply. excellent point! and the sad thing is, this hypo describes the majority of people that I know that came out of the UC system. it would've described me, too, had I not sold out and learned to enjoy the taste of blood.

2 friends come to mind

the first took a degree in political science

defaulted on her loans after trying to pay them and live on minimum wage for a year... moved to Korea to teach English... last I heard from her

Another guy took a communications degree, sold computers for Dell for the next five years scraping by, paying his loans

He lucked out marrying a nice girl who works doing something computer related in the banking industry...

NIKI2

Friday, March 5, 2010 5:56 PM

Rue, you nailed it perfectly about California, on every point. Prop 13 is a mess, and one of the largest reasons for our problems. Well to go back, REAGAN was a mess, and one of the largest reasons for our problems. Good old "trickle down"...

Prop 13 does help the elderly who stay put--we bought in 1975 and our property taxes are puny compared to today's values. If we sell, because of our age we can buy in county and the property taxes will not be raised on what we buy! It's lovely for a very few (and all those you mentioned), but it's been bankrupting the state for years.

The 2/3 majority is also a major problem, and why our budgets EVERY YEAR are late, people suffer, etc. We sometimes have good ideas in CA--other times we are just the crazies people think we are. I blame Reagan.

Mincing, while I agree with some, I've never seen any sense of entitlement in any of the Californians I know. Mostly I see a stronger willingness to raise taxes to pay for good things--like our high recycling rate, etc. Maybe that's just No. Ca., 'cuz I saw the same thing in the Santa Clara valley and SF. So maybe it's my OWN naivte talking...

Gino, I take your point, but happen to believe those courses ARE important. People need to be more “rounded” and not just turned out as working drones. Rue covers it for me, all the way down the line. I agree with you in principle, for what you’re saying, but I will continue to hold the belief that people need to be more well rounded and have the opportunity to explore their possibilities. I cam out of the junior college system; I took lots and lots of interesting classes, but I also took about four “business” classes. Those classes helped me gain a job as a file clerk, and I went up from there. A degree in anything BUT business would have gotten me there a bit faster, I dunno, but I treasure all the other classes I took far above the business ones. So I guess we come from two different places. For me, in today’s working world, it’s not as important what your degree is IN as what classes you TAKE. Tons of people with prefectl valid degrees can’t get jobs and have to start from the bottom and move up, despite their fancy degrees. I guess I’m in favor of expanding the human mind, as opposed to narrowing it. Just my opinion.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

RUE

Friday, March 5, 2010 6:02 PM

"... who still cannot meet their own needs ..."

As I tried to point out, we live in a society of artificial lack. People who do ANY job 40 hours a week are net productive in society. They ARE contributing more than they are taking. That we continue to suck value out of them to give to the already obscenely wealthy and powerful is a fault of our system, not of them.

But the system has corroded our humanity.

There IS no such thing as being poor, but wise. Poor, but talented. Poor, but inventive. Money is the only measure of our worth.

If you believe that, then yes, people with degrees that don't MAKE SOMEONE MONEY are a waste of human flesh. If you don't, then you will think otherwise.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

RUE

Friday, March 5, 2010 6:06 PM

"... Prop 13 does help the elderly who stay put ..."

That only happens b/c the major landholders - and I mean millions of square miles of land - will NEVER see an increase in their property taxes. If they were proportionally paying taxes comparable to the average homeowner, your taxes would not need to go up so drastically on resale.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NIKI2

Friday, March 5, 2010 6:09 PM

Oh, I fully agree. Was just mentioning how it does benefit people like us, given this IS the situation we live in. Just a teeeny little "aside", if you will.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

MINCINGBEAST

Friday, March 5, 2010 6:11 PM

Gino: My experience is skewed because I was a literature creep,as were most of my peers, but I honestly do not know anybody from the UC system that came out of my dept., and went on to working with their degree. We're talking baristas with a $30,000 piece of paper and a "broadened mind." had a good time in undergrad, and now face the reality of a cold hard world that doesn't give a damn about how well they know foucault. quite disappointing. if anything good comes of the current crisis, perhaps it would creating less of these unfortunates.

Rue: Prop. 13 has been a disaster for our state, and our schools. My impulse is to connect it to what I consider the Californian sense of entitlement. "I shouldn't have to pay property taxes that fund schools, but I am entitled to the best schools possible for my kids."

RUE

Friday, March 5, 2010 6:22 PM

Prop 13 passed b/c, like most propositions on the ballot, it benefitted a group with power (in this case VERY large landholders) and b/c Californians are EASILY duped over the issue of taxes. All you have to do is whisper the word and people will rally to your cause - without bothering to figure out who really benefits and who really pays, in the end.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, March 5, 2010 6:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"... who still cannot meet their own needs ..."

As I tried to point out, we live in a society of artificial lack. People who do ANY job 40 hours a week are net productive in society. They ARE contributing more than they are taking. That we continue to suck value out of them to give to the already obscenely wealthy and powerful is a fault of our system, not of them.

But the system has corroded our humanity.

There IS no such thing as being poor, but wise. Poor, but talented. Poor, but inventive. Money is the only measure of our worth.

If you believe that, then yes, people with degrees that don't MAKE SOMEONE MONEY are a waste of human flesh. If you don't, then you will think otherwise.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Go down to a soup kitchen and see how many people have degrees and debt with no hope of employment that would give them security...

I knew several people who needed to feed themselves out of the food bank, with degree similar to this, and this was during a boom, not a recession...

the guy I mentioned who worked for Dell, worked 60 or so hours a week, living in a rooming house where he shared a toilet down the hall with the other folk living there up to the point he met his wife... was he happy... no ( not being snarky, I know of one suicide attempt )

Maybe it is the system, or society

But I see the waste of potential, the misery and the hurt

" There IS no such thing as being poor, but wise. Poor, but talented. Poor, but inventive "

Drop by a homeless shelter and I'd bet money you would find examples of all three

Talent, Inventive, Wise... just no hope

RUE

Friday, March 5, 2010 6:36 PM

Gino

During the Depression well educated men were reduced to trying to sell apples on the street. Skilled workers were begging handouts.

Is your answer to keep people from investing in education or skills ? Or do you think the problem lies elsewhere ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

HERO

Friday, March 5, 2010 6:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
my heart goes out to these kids. seriously.

But not your wallet.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, March 5, 2010 6:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Gino

During the Depression well educated men were reduced to trying to sell apples on the street. Skilled workers were begging handouts.

Is your answer to keep people from investing in education or skills ? Or do you think the problem lies elsewhere ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

With limited resources why train people in skill sets that statistical studies would reveal to be not in demand ?

If you need 50 doctors, why train 30, and 20 people in folklore... then complain about the shortage of doctors, the lack of spaces in medical programs, the lack of funding for programs, the taxes paid into education, the lack of social assistance for the 15 of the 20 folklore guys living on the street...

Target education funding and design programs which produce people with a better chance of success... And by success I mean to at a minimum be able to provide for themselves to a degree that offsets the investment made in their education.

Like I said, some people suffer for their educational choices even during boom times

Lean times, people need all the chances they can get...

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

MINCINGBEAST

Friday, March 5, 2010 7:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
my heart goes out to these kids. seriously.

But not your wallet.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

my heart is as empty as my wallet, and i, as a grad student on the verge of graduation, am similarly situated.

RUE

Friday, March 5, 2010 7:54 PM

"If you need 50 doctors, why train 30, and 20 people in folklore... then complain about the shortage of doctors ..."

You seem to think that economic supply and demand are forces of nature. They are not. Supply and demand are driven by what we chose to value, what we chose to withhold, what we chose to reward. They are all choices.

Since you mention doctors specifically, in 2007 in the US there were 2 applicants for every spot in medical school. Some people see this as a problem - perhaps the pool is too shallow. Other people see this as a bonus - surely there are more than enough applicants to fill all the places. Either way, the number of doctors isn't limited by the availability of applicants.

So why is there a doctor shortage ? If the 'laws' of supply and demand worked the overabundance of applicants and the shortage of doctors would work itself out quickly. But that's not the case.

Let's take another example: PhD chemists. This is certainly a demanding field, something which you would expect would produced relatively low numbers of people. And there is definitely a need - for materials chemists, biopharmaceutical chemists, petroleum chemists etc. Yet the going rate for job applicant PhD chemists with some experience in these fields is barely above minimum wage - largely due to the heavy use of contract and temporary work.

If the 'laws' of supply and demand held, you would not expect this result.

Now let's look at a hypothetical. There are 100 nursing jobs available. Every single person who goes to school gets a nursing degree. Does that make more nursing jobs available ?

In the big picture there are more than enough qualified people to do any job. There are more than enough OVER qualified people to do any job. What you are proposing is that people give themselves better weapons in this Roman arena we call an economy. And in the short-term, some people will do better. But by going that route you guarantee that overall, in the long run, everyone loses.

What I am saying is that there are other answers. Yes, they involve a major rethinking of what we assume. But the first thing is to not discount education - ANY education - as being somehow useless to society. If it produces more thoughtful people, then society has benefited.

***************************************************************

And now I have to leave. I expect to be back next week, and look forward to more discussion - if not on this topic, then on some other.

Good luck to all.

SIGNYM

Friday, March 5, 2010 7:59 PM

Quote:
With limited resources why train people in skill sets that statistical studies would reveal to be not in demand ?

WHAT limited resources?

Sure we're short of food, water, trees, wildlands, clean air and clean ocean. But we're not short of people. People train people. People learn from people. THAT we have plenty of!

HERO

Friday, March 5, 2010 8:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
WHAT limited resources?

Sure we're short of food, water, trees, wildlands, clean air and clean ocean. But we're not short of people. People train people. People learn from people. THAT we have plenty of!

Actually people do not train people. People learn from trained employees (professors, doctors, teachers, etc). Employees drawing a salary and benefits train people. Employees sitting in rooms with electric lights and chalk boards...perhaps computers or other essential equipment train people.

So lots of people. Little money for salary, benefits, buildings and support services all of which are essential for training people...unless you're training people to be unskilled workers. That you can do with the resource you describe (people).

You can have all the people in the world available to teach computer programming...but if your resources are limited to people and perhaps some sticks and dirt, your future computer programmer is going to end up picking fruit to earn a living.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

RUE

Friday, March 5, 2010 8:58 PM

Just a quick reply and then gone - but all those THINGS you point to as an example of resources - electricity and light bulbs, buildings and clean halls, computers and chalk, and invention - are a result of - somebody's effort. Iron is just a rock in the ground until somebody mines it, somebody transports it, somebody smelts it, somebody designs it, somebody machines it ... Those 'things' don't grow on trees ready to be plucked. They aren't found in nature. They are the crystallized work of many people. It still comes back to the 'resource' of people.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Friday, March 5, 2010 9:02 PM

The "things" you need to teach people are trivial in relation to the required time and skills (people).

GINOBIFFARONI

Saturday, March 6, 2010 3:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The "things" you need to teach people are trivial in relation to the required time and skills (people).

Then I guess they do not really need the cash those in the first post were complaining about

Much to do about nothing

problem solved Signy

GINOBIFFARONI

Saturday, March 6, 2010 3:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Just a quick reply and then gone - but all those THINGS you point to as an example of resources - electricity and light bulbs, buildings and clean halls, computers and chalk, and invention - are a result of - somebody's effort. Iron is just a rock in the ground until somebody mines it, somebody transports it, somebody smelts it, somebody designs it, somebody machines it ... Those 'things' don't grow on trees ready to be plucked. They aren't found in nature. They are the crystallized work of many people. It still comes back to the 'resource' of people.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

and that effort is rewarded with cash

without it, cho wouldn't get no effort for long lady...

GINOBIFFARONI

Saturday, March 6, 2010 3:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
With limited resources why train people in skill sets that statistical studies would reveal to be not in demand ?
WHAT limited resources?

Sure we're short of food, water, trees, wildlands, clean air and clean ocean. But we're not short of people. People train people. People learn from people. THAT we have plenty of!

Tax money to pay said people....

or will they work for free

SIGNYM

Saturday, March 6, 2010 5:42 AM

And where does that shortage of money come from, Gino? Is there an absolute lack of money??? Not enough dollar bills floating around?

Why do we have jobs that need to be done - like teaching- AND unemployment?????

There are more than enough people to do everything that needs to be done, and more. The only thing that is keeping us from being able to do that is those who control the money control US.

MAL4PREZ

Saturday, March 6, 2010 2:41 PM

Gino: I really enjoy many things you have to say, but you've lost me here. Rant to ensue, sorry for the rantiness. I mean no disrespect.

My understanding: communist china worries quite a bit about how many people are doing the important jobs. Over there, according to much I've read and heard from Chinese friends, you train for and do what the govt tells you to do. Myself, I'd prefer to major in the wrong thing and change my field later, even if my mistake costs me some misery along the way (as it did).

As for what it costs the students: the high price of education in general is to blame, not a few particular majors you happen to dislike.

As for what these "wasted" degrees cost the economy: I imagine that if everyone studying those "useless" subjects quit, the universities would go belly up. The institutions need that tuition money, even if most of it comes through loans. Go after the loans and costs, not the majors.

As for the unimportance of knowledge: no one is God, and no one knows what education will serve a person later in life, even if it was gotten through a major they moved away from. Primarily, it may serve them through happiness, which I put a higher value on than income. You seem to dismiss the importance of "happiness" without a second throught. What's wrong with someone having a damned good time obtaining knowledge they love? It's not something you have an opportunity to do later in life, might as well when you're 20. Sure, puts you in debt. Again, blame the costs, not the knowledge.

As for combining majors: I can't speak for the other pairings you mentioned, but combining physics and engineering is ridiculous. Sure, for one you need some of the other, but to build a useful level of expertise you have to focus not just on one topic, but on a narrow part of it, exclusively. Either that or stay in school for 20+ years. I took 11 years for me to learn my general topic and specialty, and that barely scratched the surface.

Finally, the whole idea of removing the possibility of failure from anything creeps the hell out of it. The basis of the American Dream (not real one, not this corporate/advertising/lawsuit bullshit that's taken over) is that you make your own choices, even if they're bad ones. That's freedom, and that's a free market. If enough people want to study basket weaving, the market will be there to train them and that's as it should be. These students can fulfill their dreams, find out that their dreams were idiotic, than go off older and wiser and better able to find something useful to do.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

NIKI2

Saturday, March 6, 2010 6:16 PM

Well said, Mal. Wasn't Russia like that, too, at least at one time? I'm not knowledgeable on the subject, but I seem to have seen that in movies. I found it really scary. Creating automatons for the work force, irregardless of the PERSON inside.

And I love how you explained it:

Quote:
As for the unimportance of knowledge: no one is God, and no one knows what education will serve a person later in life, even if it was gotten through a major they moved away from. Primarily, it may serve them through happiness, which I put a higher value on than income. You seem to dismiss the importance of "happiness" without a second throught. What's wrong with someone having a damned good time obtaining knowledge they love? It's not something you have an opportunity to do later in life, might as well when you're 20. Sure, puts you in debt. Again, blame the costs, not the knowledge.

What I'd LIKE to say, if I had the communication skills you showed.

Human beings are more than fodder for the work force, they are complex creatures with talents and imagination. I wish we would foster that rather than only let them study what's useful to the rest of human society.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NIKI2

Saturday, March 6, 2010 8:20 PM

I just had a long discussion with my husband. Always starts out with me saying how amazed I am by this place, the variety of positions and beliefs, how much more knowledgeable people are here than I and how much I learn from both them and from looking up arguments I want to make or believe in, ending up spending hours on the internet and learning from that as well.

We got into education, and the debate between liberal arts being valuable versus just taking classes in a major.

He got his degree from San Jose state, and explained about the best course he ever took. The professor had them do nothing but read: Anything they wanted to read, as long as they could justify it. They then wrote a report on what they read, and gave him a 3x5 card with information about the book to add to his library.

Jim was a business major, and ended up Vice President of the Round Table Franchise...he never went anywhere outside business. But he states flatly that he is a big proponent of liberal arts for many reasons, among them the widening of horizons, the chance to explore, and the possibility of stumbling across something that intrigues the student and makes them change their direction.

Now that professor would well be considered a kook and not worth his salary to many who advocate not having anything but "useful" classes available. His experience and beliefs make the case a number of us are making, in my view.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

GINOBIFFARONI

Saturday, March 6, 2010 8:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Gino: I really enjoy many things you have to say, but you've lost me here. Rant to ensue, sorry for the rantiness. I mean no disrespect.

My understanding: communist china worries quite a bit about how many people are doing the important jobs. Over there, according to much I've read and heard from Chinese friends, you train for and do what the govt tells you to do. Myself, I'd prefer to major in the wrong thing and change my field later, even if my mistake costs me some misery along the way (as it did).

As for what it costs the students: the high price of education in general is to blame, not a few particular majors you happen to dislike.

As for what these "wasted" degrees cost the economy: I imagine that if everyone studying those "useless" subjects quit, the universities would go belly up. The institutions need that tuition money, even if most of it comes through loans. Go after the loans and costs, not the majors.

As for the unimportance of knowledge: no one is God, and no one knows what education will serve a person later in life, even if it was gotten through a major they moved away from. Primarily, it may serve them through happiness, which I put a higher value on than income. You seem to dismiss the importance of "happiness" without a second throught. What's wrong with someone having a damned good time obtaining knowledge they love? It's not something you have an opportunity to do later in life, might as well when you're 20. Sure, puts you in debt. Again, blame the costs, not the knowledge.

As for combining majors: I can't speak for the other pairings you mentioned, but combining physics and engineering is ridiculous. Sure, for one you need some of the other, but to build a useful level of expertise you have to focus not just on one topic, but on a narrow part of it, exclusively. Either that or stay in school for 20+ years. I took 11 years for me to learn my general topic and specialty, and that barely scratched the surface.

Finally, the whole idea of removing the possibility of failure from anything creeps the hell out of it. The basis of the American Dream (not real one, not this corporate/advertising/lawsuit bullshit that's taken over) is that you make your own choices, even if they're bad ones. That's freedom, and that's a free market. If enough people want to study basket weaving, the market will be there to train them and that's as it should be. These students can fulfill their dreams, find out that their dreams were idiotic, than go off older and wiser and better able to find something useful to do.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

I wasn't suggesting combining majors or any crap like that, we were talking about taking non related classes

People can be free to fulfill idiotic dreams, that is well and good...

but does government have a role in helping people fulfill idiotic dreams is my point...

If enough people want to study basket weaving, they can have at it... just not supported by tax revenues

As for " universities would go belly up "

there is a waiting list a mile long, kids who can't get into programs that lead to something down the road... why not expand enrollment for them ? Make those programs more available ?

Go ahead, make bad choices... you are still free to do so. Why should I have to help pay for that ?

NCBROWNCOAT

Saturday, March 6, 2010 10:19 PM

Just an example of you never know what you'll get when you select a major. The CEO of the bank where I work is an Agricultural Sciences major from NC State.

Yet he has successfully guided a small eastern NC bank for the past 25 years, through expansions to most of the eastern part of the state from one branch in a very small town and now through the minefield of the banking crisis that we're now in. All the while staring at Bank of America, Wachovia (now bought by Wells Fargo) and other big mega banks right across the road.

I've also heard him say that he doesn't care what you majored in, just the fact you graduated proved to him that you could LEARN. And most of the original employees (many are still with the bank and have corporate level jobs) have a generalized business degree or in one or two cases just a high school diploma.

And yes, on Thursday he left early (around 4:45-he usually works way beyond every one else) to go home to plant his spring broccoli.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

SIGNYM

Saturday, March 6, 2010 10:22 PM

It seems to me that a government- particularly a democratic government- has an interest in a generally well educated population. And in my view, knowledge is never wasted.

Nobody knows what knowledge will do someone good. Maybe they learn about themselves or their family. Maybe they learn how to make pretty things. Maybe they learn about history. In my hubby's case, he's a polymath. His degree is in philosophy. But what that degree did was teach him how to think, and from that he became an expert in both analog and digital electronics and machine-level programming, and has spent the past 30 years designing advanced research instrumentation for research chemists who need to measure things that have never been measured before.

I supervise 12 people (soon to be 13) and I encourage them all to get as much information as possible, even if it's not directly job-related. And from that my peeps have gotten involved in programming, policy, economics... makes them much more effective.

MAL4PREZ

Saturday, March 6, 2010 11:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Well said, Mal. Wasn't Russia like that, too, at least at one time?

Certainly. I think of little girls with good feet and bendy backs that got pushed into the Kirov. Made for some great ballerinas, but not for a lot of choice in lifestyle.

I thought of China first because I recently read a Pearl S. Buck novel about Chinese women raised in America going back in the 50s and 60s. Definitely a story about freedom of choice and what happens when you don't have it. The Chinese govt saw humans as cogs in their machine, and placed them for the good of the country. Absolutely stifling.

And thank you for the compliment! If I'm being eloquent, blame the painkillers. Broken bone last week - got it set yesterday. Ouchy. I'm having a lazy druggy day. :)

Gino: You confuse me. You brought up women's studies and said it shouldn't be a standalone major, but combined with something else. Then you immediately listed a bunch of other topic combinations. You really just meant taking some broad range of classes? Um... isn't that what people do, in undergrad at least? It's kind of required, at least at every school I've experienced.

Anyway, I'd like to see some stats on how much of our tax money actually goes to what you'd deem "worthless" education. I bet it's less than you think. Doesn't the govt mostly loans that get paid back? Sucks for the loanees with the debt, but that part is not coming out of your pocket in a permanent way. As for any money that might be fully given away as grants, perhaps it is a shame that you can't choose the recipient. I sure as hell wish I could get back all of my money that went, and is still going, to Halliburton and Blackwater. That was a helluva lot more than what all the Philosophy and Literature and Arts majors cost us!

And at least we get something back from education. Look what ignorance gets us - George Bush and Sarah Palin. Our only hope is to get people into school so they'll stop voting for idiots. You may not like folk's choice of major, but at least they're attempting to learn to think. That's never a bad thing. Unless you're George or Sarah or Dick.

But besides all that, I come back to the idea of the government controlling our ability to choose. I think it's completely whacked to hand over that power, even if it makes you feel better about paying your taxes. I wouldn't feel at all good about giving a dime to a govt that would tell us what to do with our lives, because being a useful cog and earning top dollar is more important than any personal goals. (Do you really think that? Or am I misunderstanding your point?)

I do heartily agree with what you said about yoru math teacher. I teach with many who did all those education degrees but have no idea about applied knowledge. Of course I'm biased, but it seems so much more useful to learn how to actually do shit before you teach. I may not know the catch phrases for various teaching techniques, but I can bring up cool real-life examples of just about anything, and that's what kids really respond to.

I mean, some teachers will argue all day about multiple choice versus true/false. How important is that, really?

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

GINOBIFFARONI

Sunday, March 7, 2010 1:26 AM

The topic of the thread ( where it all started )

was protests to the state gov for cutting back on the funding they put to the university

if it isn't that much money, then it isn't that big of a deal... problem solved

My point over the womans studies, is taking a class or two in it good... taking a full degree program in it bad

you say it is important to have the freedom to do it anyway... that is fine, but do it on your own dime or better... have the interest groups that support such programs kick in cash. You want Jewish studys, perhaps a rabbi school is the place for you, etc...

Halliburton and Blackwater, useless wars, pork barrelling politicos

all useless, but not the subject at hand...

state gov education funding... with the state in question almost bankrupt yet pinned by its own rules and unable to change its circumstances ( the super majority crap )

until that changes... what do you do

put what cash you have to where it does the most good...

Rue and Signy want to change society, and that being well and good is short term unrealistic... without a bloody revolution anyway, and even then I suspect they would lose.

Federal issues aside, the state needs to get its house in order, and providing services is top on that list. Roads need fixing, cops need to be paid, etc

I further say to stretch what funding goes into education at this time needs to be targeted

" Anyway, I'd like to see some stats on how much of our tax money actually goes to what you'd deem "worthless" education. "

I'd love to see that too

plus I'd also want to see employment stats for grads in said programs going back say ten years...

did they find work related to their field of study, were they able to repay their loans, where they are related to the poverty level, etc

those stats I think would settle this, in addition entry student should be made aware of those stats when choosing programs...

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, March 7, 2010 1:51 AM

I was certainly made aware of job stats when I started college. You think students aren't? This information is readily available. Again, what you don't seem to realize is that not everybody goes to college in search of the highest paycheck possible. And that's not a bad thing.

Back to CA: before the state went bust it was known as a damned fine university system to work for. That environment brought in a lot of good people, which led to some fantastic research that brought in tons of federal funding and got the whole explosion of Silicon Valley started.

What bankrupted CA was not the education system, and the fact that it's on the chopping block now just shows tremendous short-sightedness. The giveaways to business and utilities are where Arnold should start, except that business and utilities have the govt and court system by the balls.

So, Gino what you're after with cutting out whatever schooling you don't like may be fun to fantasize about, but it wouldn't save anything. It'd be like me "fixing" my own budget by buying regular coffees rather than lattes every morning, never mind that I'm paying out a lease on a new sports car and rent on a fancy downtown apartment. (Hypothetically speaking, of course. I have none of these things!)

Worse, your solution as you've presented in previous posts would destroy some pretty basic freedoms.

ETA: A better analogy would have been me eating at McD's every day to save money. Would save relatively little compared to my other expenses, and also would leave me fat, unhealthy, and covered in zits. Much better to invest in being healthy! Yes, I think education makes people healthier. Mentally.

ETA2: The fact that you don't find women's studies or Jewish studies worth a full major is another can of worms I'm trying very hard not to open.... can't resist... So you think that only research that very specifically relates to *you* should be supported by our government? What are you, PN?

(And where's Niki with a cuckoo!cuckoo! emoticon when I need one?)

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NIKI2

Sunday, March 7, 2010 6:18 PM

Quote:
It seems to me that a government- particularly a democratic government- has an interest in a generally well educated population. And in my view, knowledge is never wasted.

It's also been proven again and again that raising the level of education in a country raises the quality of life and improves the country in question.

Quote:
Look what ignorance gets us - George Bush and Sarah Palin. Our only hope is to get people into school so they'll stop voting for idiots. You may not like folk's choice of major, but at least they're attempting to learn to think.

BINGO! The biggest thing education does is widen one's horizons and hopefully help one learn to think, reason, wonder, question.

Right here Mal:

--take your pick!

Sympathies on broken bones, poor baby; whadya break? How bad? What's recovery time? I sympathize deeply, trust me; gone through two operations and loooong recovery on a bad wrist break/ligament tear...and after all of that, it will still never be the same! Hope yours were clean and heal well, and hey, enjoy those drugs!!

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10uorw]

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, March 7, 2010 7:49 PM

Broke a bone in my foot. Luckily not near my ankle, so I should be at least able to hobble soon. But the pin in the bone is not the funnest.

Learning how to think... I know very well that most of my students won't use the particulars of my class again. What I hope sticks is the basic approach to problem solving: what do I know, what do I need to know, how do I get there, and how do I know if I'm wrong? It's shockingly hard to get them to think in these terms, but it's worth trying. Who knows what it'll help them get through in the future.

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NIKI2

Monday, March 8, 2010 2:16 AM

Ouch, ouch and double ouch! I sympathize with the pin; they put this metal "claw" in my wrist, and it was awful. It's almost lucky they found the torn ligament, 'cuz it meant they had to go back in, and in doing so, it was healed enough they could remove the claw. I don't know how I would have lived with that thing, it was damned painful!

Hope you recover soonest, and your students are VERY lucky. Too many teachers/professors don't give a damn...too many teachers have class sizes that are too big and classes with unmanageable students; I think you're probably in the minority. Nonetheless: YES! That's one of the most important things about education; if we're lucky, it teaches us to think, question and learn different ways of being.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

MAL4PREZ

Monday, March 8, 2010 2:36 AM

Claw? Eh! Sounds awful! Ligament damage is the worst. I'm actually pretty lucky with this one - clean break and all.

The circumstances at my school are pretty good. I'm able to care more than many teachers can. Which is why it confuses me that we need to cut back on education spending and not defense. Speaking of stats I'd like to see: how many teachers can we hire by building one less F16 or 1 less U-bomb? How much would class sized be decreased if we hadn't invaded Iraq?

I know, obvious hippy talking points. And yet, still so relevant.

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NIKI2

Monday, March 8, 2010 4:59 PM

Hah! Silly person, what a question! America put education ahead of military might? Poor baby; have you seen someone about those delusions? Yeah, you MUST be one of those damned hippies Wulf hates so much! Shees...

I'm glad your school is like that, it's always really a good feeling to hear about one that is, so few are (or are able to be!).

As to the ligament, yes, I agree. It will always be malformed and always hurt, I've finally accepted that. My only wish is that it had been the left...sigh. Sux. But it, and other things, could be SO much worse, I can't complain.

Last two years: did physical therapy for that, now been in PT for seemingly AGES for achilles tendonitis, with a short break in the middle to try PT for degenerative disc disease--which made it TEN TIMES worse so I quit and went back to the tendon.

Pfffft...getting old SUXXXXX!!!

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 3:15 AM

Well... big caveat that I teach at a private school. The parents pay a lot for the attention their kids get. It's a shame. Every school, public or private, should be able to do this: I feel reasonably informed about every kid I teach. Not just academics, but their social and home lives. Enough that I understand why they might be having hard times so I can work with them.

I wish it didn't take a big tuition to make it happen. I can imagine what a difference it would have made for me if I'd had this kind of support and attention in high school.

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NIKI2

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 6:45 PM

Oh, heavens: AMEN to every word. I wish I knew what we could do to bring our education standards back up aside from big tuitions and private schools. When I was young California had one of the highest educational standards of anywhere; now, it's pathetic.

You keep doing what you're doing, kiddo; we need every one of you we can get to help turn out well-rounded kids who've learned how to learn and how to think!

And take care of that foot, eh?

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

RUE

Tuesday, March 9, 2010 7:32 PM

"America put education ahead of military might?"

Or prisons ? What could we be thinking !!???

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

JAYNEZTOWN

Saturday, January 30, 2021 8:30 PM

Fed Up Parent EXPLODES on VA School Board: "You Should All Be Fired!

https://rumble.com/vdbkft-fed-up-parent-explodes-on-va-school-board-yo
u-should-all-be-fired.html

JAYNEZTOWN

Saturday, October 23, 2021 8:18 PM

Sen. Hawley, other Republicans blast FBI for targeting outspoken parents at school board meetings
https://www.djournal.com/news/national/sen-hawley-other-republicans-bl
ast-fbi-for-targeting-outspoken-parents-at-school-board-meetings/article_71b2c942-4dd0-520a-8db9-30959a7037c5.html

Loudoun County schools boss Scott Ziegler knew of alleged sex assault despite denial: report
https://nypost.com/2021/10/22/loudoun-county-school-boss-scott-ziegler
-knew-of-alleged-sex-assault-report/

Loudoun County schools covered up rape, prosecuted a concerned father to protect transgender agenda
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/loudoun-county-schools-cove
red-up-rape-prosecuted-a-concerned-father-to-protect-its-transgender-agenda

Garland's son in law involved in an education company that sells/provides CRT related cirriculum and books or materials.
https://nypost.com/2021/10/13/critical-race-theory-firm-linked-to-ag-g
arlands-kin-serves-schoolscompany-co-founded-by-ag-garlands-son-in-law-serves-over-20k-schools/

Critical race theory (CRT) is a radical ideology now pushed in schoolsasserting that races can be put into different categories: That white people are the opressor and that jihads or black people and transexual LGBT minorities are always the opressed? Critical race theory seems to reject the core teachings of Dr. Martin Luther King, that people should be judged on the content of their character?? the far-left perverted Loudoun County corrupted prosecutor’s fake office, which would eventually try to throw the book at Smith over his arrest at the school board meeting, insisted they were taking the rape case seriously, the same boy was let back into the school system. Within months, he / she / it had committed another rape.

Loudon County Fiasco Illustrates the Folly of War on School Board Critics
https://www.newsweek.com/loudon-county-fiasco-illustrates-folly-war-sc
hool-board-critics-opinion-1639843

'The DOJ will target you like a domestic terrorist': Tucker Carlson blasts AG Merrick Garland over plans for FBI crackdown on parents
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10064873/Tucker-Carlson-blast
s-AG-Merrick-Garland-crackdown-parents-stand-against-CRT.html

JAYNEZTOWN

Friday, June 10, 2022 8:15 PM

Poll: U.S. veterans oppose student loan debt forgiveness

https://justthenews.com/nation/states/center-square/poll-us-veterans-o
ppose-student-loan-debt-forgiveness

JAYNEZTOWN

Friday, February 10, 2023 6:32 AM

23 Baltimore schools have zero students proficient in math

https://www.foxbaltimore.com/amp/news/project-baltimore/state-test-res
ults-23-baltimore-schools-have-zero-students-proficient-in-math-jovani-patterson-maryland-comprehensive-assessment-program-maryland-governor-wes-moore

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, February 12, 2023 8:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JAYNEZTOWN:
23 Baltimore schools have zero students proficient in math

https://www.foxbaltimore.com/amp/news/project-baltimore/state-test-res
ults-23-baltimore-schools-have-zero-students-proficient-in-math-jovani-patterson-maryland-comprehensive-assessment-program-maryland-governor-wes-moore

Perfect! They'll fit right in with the rest of the Democrat voters.

--------------------------------------------------

Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.

JAYNEZTOWN

Thursday, July 27, 2023 5:26 AM

Concussion May Not Affect IQ in Children
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/994791

public school?
https://twitter.com/2020mediagb/status/1683791990612262912

and Europe becoming Eurabia?

Berlin pool forced to close over sexual assaults by Muslim migrants, Lifeguard Association resident warns “violence against pool staff is everywhere”
https://barenakedislam.com/2023/07/25/germany-after-berlin-pool-forced
-to-close-over-sexual-assaults-by-muslim-migrants-lifeguard-association-resident-warns-violence-against-pool-staff-is-everywhere/

JAYNEZTOWN

Tuesday, August 6, 2024 2:05 PM

Biden Administration Says It Will Finalize Second Attempt at Blanket Student Loan Forgiveness

https://reason.com/2024/08/05/biden-administration-says-it-will-finali
ze-second-attempt-at-blanket-student-loan-forgiveness-this-fall/