Real World Event Discussions

South Ossetia: Defense against ethnic cleansing, or invasion? (Turns out, Georgia fired missiles first. it was self defense)

POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, August 23, 2026 15:28
VIEWED: 18520
PAGE 10 of 28

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 3:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But OOC Finn, when was the last time you tried to understand MY point of view?

The abortion discussion, or there after, was probably the last time; when we spent a week or more hashing out the issue of abortion. I spent hours and hours explaining myself in detail about my views on abortion, working out every detail until you understood it. And then what did you do? You started accusing me of wanting to murder people, just because your pathetic self-righteousness couldn't allow you to accept that any view different from yours could exist without contradiction. That was the last time I spent any real time trying to understand you. I still read your posts. You’re an intelligent person with an interesting point of view, and it’s a shame that you have such a narrow perspective of other views, because you could offer some insight. I just don’t know how much of what you say can be taken seriously and how much is just the verbal chess game designed to demonize people for not seeing things your way, so there’s not a lot of incentive for me to spend a lot time on your posts trying to find insight that might be nothing more then manipulation.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 3:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Is that your objective here now?

Let me know when you’re ready to have a discussion about Bush that doesn’t include equating him to Darth Vader, then we’ll find out.

SIGNYM

Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:24 PM

Quote:
I spent hours and hours explaining myself in detail about my views on abortion, working out every detail until you understood it.

What you were explaining at the time was how a fertlized egg is like a train: it has a destination, a goal, a purpose, an ideal (human being) which defines it. (Typical Artistolelian concept BTW.) Basically, your rationale for why a fertilized egg is a human being despite the lack of human features or the certainty that it will arrive at its destination (given the stochastic nature of fetal development).

I got that.

I don't agree with it, but I got it.

What I don't understand is how you can have such passionately protective feeelings about humans at their merest flicker of possibility... and be so callous to actual people, that they can be casually disposed of on your way to some greater idea.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
What I don't understand is how you can have such passionately felt protective feeelings about human life at its merest flicker of possibility... and be so callous to actual people, that they can be casually disposed of on your way to some greater idea.

This is my point. This is the way you justify, not agreeing with me - by painting me as uncaring of human life. Basically hating me or thinking of me as evil is the only way you can justify in your mind, me not seeing things your way. This taints every view of me you have - it makes it impossible for you to understand anything I say.

CHRISISALL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Let me know when you’re ready to have a discussion about Bush that doesn’t include equating him to Darth Vader, then we’ll find out.

I've never equated the two; Vader is intelligent. And he was a good guy, in the end.

Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Basically hating me or thinking of me as evil is the only way you can justify in your mind, me not seeing things your way.

Finn, I personally really want to get where you're coming from, and at times I think I'm close, but this idea that a half million Iraqi civies dead to topple Saddam's regime being an acceptable loss towards that victory just does not compute....this is the thing, when juxtaposed with your stance on abortion, that gets Signy (I believe) & me all turned around. Your definition of acceptable human termination seems quite fluid in it's application.

T-1000isall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Basically hating me or thinking of me as evil is the only way you can justify in your mind, me not seeing things your way.
Finn, I personally really want to get where you're coming from, and at times I think I'm close, but this idea that a half million Iraqi civies dead to topple Saddam's regime being an acceptable loss towards that victory just does not compute....this is the thing, when juxtaposed with your stance on abortion, that gets Signy (I believe) & me all turned around. Your definition of acceptable human termination seems quite fluid in it's application.

Well this is nothing new. The Anti-War Philosophy has always been one that is prone to hateful fanaticism. This is the reason why hippies spat in the face of soldiers coming home from Vietnam. You don’t agree with the Iraq War, which is a perfectly reasonable position to take, but then you take people that you think feel that the Iraq War was necessary and you paint them as feeling that way to satisfy from need for killing or uncaring of human life, because you don’t want to accept their point of view, which is completely unreasonable.

PARTICIPANT

Sunday, August 17, 2008 5:10 PM

Adding to another Neocon conspiracy

Quote:
Retired US Lt. Colonel tells it like it is re: Georgian-Russian conflict
In particular note what he says about Blackwater, Izzy troops, and US troops in Georgia.

What Has Really Been
Occurring In The
Russian-Georgian Conflict
A First-Hand Report By An American In Russia
By Byron J. Richards, CCN
NewsWithViews.com
8-15-8

Note: This article was written by a retired Lt.-Col. in the U.S. military, who is currently residing in Russia. His article here helps clear up much of the misinformation people have been fed by the sadistic folks in Washington who are trying to promote WWIII. -ed

In 1991, South Ossetia was promised independence from the Soviet Union, and the Georgian Republic. However, when Georgia became independent it saw an opportunity to grab some land, and the terminals for two major oil pipelines. Since Georgia is essentially bankrupt and an economic basket case, they saw this as a viable option.

It should also be understood that contrary to the 30 years old CIA report that is being circulated, Georgia is now over 60% Moslem, with Moslems controlling the government, and South Ossetia - which is surrounded on three sides by Georgia - is over 80% Orthodox Christian. This is something else that amazes me about Bush's choice of "allies."

They essentially invaded South Ossetia and installed a rather brutal military government. The South Ossetians did not want to be grabbed and they fought back, and in the fighting some Russian cities were damaged just across the border and there were a number of civilian casualties. Russia essentially said "Quit damaging our cities" and sent Russian troops to see that no more Russian cities were damaged. They became the main component in a small international (with Azerbaizhan and Tdjikistan) peacekeeping force in the region.

Comes last Thursday and the Georgians attack the Russians in South Ossetia. Once again, they are trying to isolate and grab those two oil terminals. As a preparatory move to this, they began shelling the Russian forces stationed in the area as peacekeepers...and once again overshot and hit two small Russian towns across the border.

The Russians come in to evacuate the Russian wounded and put fresh troops in place to keep the Georgians and South Ossetians from tearing up Russian cities and killing more Russian civilians in their own country. They also intended to stop a relentless Katucha rocket bombardment and standard artillery bombardment of the South Ossetian capital (which has no military significance) and has already reduced it to a pile of gravel and fine white powder -- with over 2,000 known civilian casualties, mostly the elderly and children.
The Russians tried to send in relief supplies (for all parties) and the Georgians tried to sink the unarmed, civilian transport ship. A Russian Krivak class frigate that was on a routine patrol out of Sevastopol picked up the SOS and responded. An 120 ft. missile boat is not much of a match for a Krivak class frigate... enough said. The result was splinters and an oil slick but not before the freighter had been seriously damaged and sustained numerous casualties.
The UN is sending in supplies, and no one stops them.

Because there is strong reason to believe that the US has been aiding the Georgians in the fight (just over 1,500 "advisors" on the ground from "Blackwater" that are demonstrable, and massive shipments of US arms and ammunition for the past 18 months) the Russians are suspicious of US aid, especially when it comes aboard military ships and airplanes. Comes the day the US sends aid via civilian vessels, the Russians will have no objections and have made it clear that such aid would be welcomed by all parties.

The French president is involved in hammering out a ceasefire that seems to be holding because the Russians and the Georgians and the South Ossetians all feel that he can be impartial because "he ain't got no dog in this fight." Still the Georgians have not completely ceased their offensive. They recently began shelling

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CHRISISALL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 5:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Well this is nothing new. The Anti-War Philosophy has always been one that is prone to hateful fanaticism.

Yes, peeps that hate the taking of lives for no seemingly useful reason can get a little...radical.

Quote:
This is the reason why hippies spat in the face of soldiers coming home from Vietnam.

Those self-righteous zealots needed to be slapped, IMO.

Quote:
You don’t agree with the Iraq War, which is a perfectly reasonable position to take, but then you take people that feel that the Iraq War was necessary and you paint them as feeling that way because they want to kill people because you don’t want to accept their point of view, which is completely unreasonable.

This is where you lose me: explain to me please how a half million Iraqi civies dead to topple Saddam's regime is a good trade off...I will paint you and others as indifferent to human life if you can't offer anything better than 'he would have become the new Hitler' or any of that nonsense...see, decisions about the economy, education, infrastructure all pale next to military decisions- if you're going to cause deaths, it HAS to be a GOOD REASON, not merely a differing 'belief'.
To send peeps to their next existence because yeah, well, everyone was SAYING he had WMD, I swear... just ain't good enough, by any reasonable standard.
Death is kinda final, see, so it provokes a stronger reaction than closing a school or something.

Struggling Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 5:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by participant:

US troops are currently landing in Georgia. Estimates are at least one "brigade strength" infantry unit with full equipment. They are joining the
Blackwater and Israeli troops (about 4,000 total) already present. The Bush Naval task force with yet more "aid" is supposedly in route. Whether it will be unchallenged when it enters Russian territorial waters remains to be seen.

Sounds like the poopy is about to impact the blades of the cooling unit, if this report is true...

Hides under deskisall