South Ossetia: Defense against ethnic cleansing, or invasion? (Turns out, Georgia fired missiles first. it was self defense)
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, August 23, 2026 15:28
VIEWED: 18520
PAGE 6 of 28
Quote:Goddamnit Geezer, do you HAVE to put words in my mouth? For someone who cries strawman! at every convenient oppty you sure manage to do a lot of it! To quote YOU from another thread: patooie! patooie!
Longing for the good old days of the Soviet Union, are we?
My point was simply that we do not know the full story. We weren't given the full story about Hungary in 1956 and the only reason why I know more of it is because I know someone who lived through it. We weren't given the full story about Afghan mujahideen, a term conveniently translated for us as "freedom fighters". And we certainly DON'T know the full story here, and we're not likely to hear it either.
One strategy to winning elections and bumping popularity is to create a crisis and then paint yourself as the savior. It worked for Ronald Reagan, who said We will not negotiate with terrorists while he paid Iran to hang on to the hostages until after he won the election. And then he invaded Grenada after a bunch of Marines got killed in Beirut (and the shuttle blew up). It worked for Maggaret Thatcher. The terror alert levels were a great tool for Bush, until people got bored with them. (When was the last time you heard an alert level? Do you REALLY think we're safer now than before?)
The fact is that most people in South Oessetia see themselves as Russians- not Georgians- and have done so for the past 150 years. But in addition, there are maneuverings going on behind the scenes, just as there were before.
Quote:
John McCain's top foreign policy adviser, Randy Scheunemann... was Georgia's top lobbyist in Washington until earlier this year. He has taken leave from his lobbying firm, Orion Strategies, but he is still listed as president of in the firm, which has received nearly $900,000 from the Embassy of Georgia since 2004.
So, hell, if you can't have a REAL war because the military is stretched thin, how about cooking up an event? Just prod the Georgian President, give him an endless string of promises and utterances of support, point him in the direction of the Russian bear and tell him to go poke it in the snoot. Then backpeddle away from doing anything real while using it as a backdrop for your campaign.
I just hope that McCain doesn't get his publicity stunt confused with reality, like Bush did.
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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Quote:ooOOO, TALK ABOUT INCONVENIENT TRUTHS- Signy, this little fact is likely to draw fire from many who worship Reagan as our greatest President and someone who could have had NO role in Iran-Contra...
Originally posted by SignyM:
It worked for Ronald Reagan, who said We will not negotiate with terrorists while he was negotiating with terrorists. He paid Iran to hang on to the hostages until after he won the election.
Justsaynoisall
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Doing a little more digging, it turns out that McCains chief foreign policy advisor, Randy Scheunemann, is not only Georgia's chief Washington lobbyist, he's also a Rumsfeld devotee, a neocon, a member of PNAC, and was ONE of the instigators of the invasion of Iraq
Quote:http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/barry-tom3.html
One of the most successful neocon groups was the U.S. Committee on NATO, directed by Bruce Jackson. Other board members included Randy Scheunemann, Julie Finley, and Gary Schmitt, who like Jackson have been tangled with three other organizations: the Project on Transitional Democracies, the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, and the Project for the New American Century. Both the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq and the Project on Transitional Democracies were PNAC spin-offs.
(This was written in 2004, so it's not new news or a convenient rewrite of history. All I did was google: Randy Scheunemann + PNAC.
So the McCain campaign is just another cover for the same neocons as before.
It's beginning to look as if the necon strategy is to pick an easily manipulated idiot and ride him into the White House.
Four more years indeed!
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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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bump for geezer
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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Quote:I heard it said Geezer likes bumps......
Originally posted by SignyM:
bump for geezer
Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Goddamnit Geezer, do you HAVE to put words in my mouth?
"The Hungarian uprising was in part fomented by the VOA's constant barrage of propaganda. The people who took part in it were not only students, but also con-men, ex-nobility, and leftover fascists from WWI. Hubby recalls several "moles" in the uprising's side who were hung from lamposts and killed by razor-blade cuts. (The old fascists really knew how to make people suffer.) Many people were glad to see the Russians roll in."
Soviets as saviors? Your words.
Quote:
And we certainly DON'T know the full story here, and we're not likely to hear it either.
From either side. Do you consider the Russians to be more honest? Really?
And did you wait until all the facts were in before condemning the liberation/invasion of Iraq?
Quote:
One strategy to winning elections and bumping popularity is to create a crisis and then paint yourself as the savior.
True. Or for justifying military actions. Putin and Medvedev have done a fine job of this.
Quote:I didn't think we were in danger before.
The terror alert levels were a great tool for Bush, until people got bored with them. (When was the last time you heard an alert level? Do you REALLY think we're safer now than before?)
Quote:
The fact is that most people in South Oessetia see themselves as Russians- not Georgians- and have done so for the past 150 years.
Since this you say this is a fact, you must have cites to back it up.
Quote:
But in addition, there are maneuverings going on behind the scenes, just as there were before.
Yep. Russia issuing Russian passports to citizens of another country, then claiming it had to protect those 'Russians', for example.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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The revolt in S. Ossentia was manufactured by Russia. Russia has been fomenting dissent in that region for a while, among which is providing military and monetary aid to Soviet separatists groups and granting Russian citizenship to Georgian citizens of those regions. This whole conflict was manufactured by Russia as part of a 19th century style foreign policy.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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GEEZER- what YOU said was:
Quote:What I said was
Longing for the good old days of the Soviet Union, are we?
Quote:Not me. Not "we". Others. Is is possible for me to tell you what others said w/o you imputing it to me? Apparently not.
Many people were glad to see the Russians roll in.
So, since I'm a little busy right now. let me get you that cite you seem to need so desperately. It's from that bastion of Russian propaganda, the BBC news:
Quote:You can read the rest here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/3797729.stm
As the Russian empire expanded into the area in the 18th and 19th centuries, the Ossetians did not join other peoples of the North Caucasus in putting up fierce resistance. Some fought alongside the Russians against neighbours who had long been rivals, while others made the difficult journey south across the mountains to escape.
By tradition, the Ossetians have had good relations with Russians and were regarded as loyal citizens, first of the Russian empire and later of the Soviet Union. They sided with the Kremlin when Bolshevik forces occupied Georgia in the early 1920s and, as part of the carve-up which followed, the South Ossetian Autonomous Region was created in Georgia and North Ossetia was formed in Russia.
FINN
Quote:Just the slightest googling would have turned up thi. But, you only see what you want to see. As usual.
The revolt in S. Ossentia was manufactured by Russia
Quote:www.opendemocracy.net/democracy-caucasus/south_ossetia_4100.jsp
On Sunday 12 November 2006, South Ossetians went to the polls to vote in a referendum confirming the region's independence from Georgia. The result was an overwhelming "yes" to independence, with a turnout above 95% from those among the territory's 70,000 people who were eligible to vote. There was a similar vote in favour of a new term for South Ossetia's president, Eduard Kokoity. Neither outcome came as a surprise, but the chances are that nobody in the international community will take the slightest bit of notice of the results.
If the USA were so interested in "democracy" surely they would have taken account of this vote?
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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Quote:The dissent in S. Ossetia was still manufactured by Russia. Just because a region votes for independence doesn’t mean there is a majority of people willing to go to war to accomplish that independence. The majority of people in S. Ossetia would likely have preferred autonomous rule granted by Georgia as in Abkhaz over Russian or Separatist violence. And just because a region votes for independence doesn’t mean that the US should support Russian invasion. Contrary to what you seem to think, Russian invasion has rarely if ever resulted in democracy of any kind. So maybe you need to do a little more “googling” before you start telling people what to think on the issue.
Originally posted by SignyM:
If the USA were so interested in "democracy" surely they would have taken account of this vote?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Finn, Geezer, et al: Just do some googling and background yourself on the issues, okay? From the very same BBC News article that I cited (which you, Finn, apparently didnt' even bother to read:
The dissent in S. Ossetia was still manufactured by Russia.
Quote:Do I need to tell you how little I think of your ability to find the truth?
In the twilight of the Soviet Union, as Georgian nationalist Zviad Gamsakhurdia came to prominence in Tbilisi, South Ossetia too flexed its separatist muscles. Soviet forces were sent to keep the peace in late 1989 following violent clashes between Georgians and Ossetians in the capital, Tskhinvali. Violence flared again as South Ossetia declared its intention to secede from Georgia in 1990 and, the following year, effective independence.
The collapse of the USSR and Georgian independence in 1991 did nothing to dampen South Ossetia's determination to consolidate the break with Tbilisi. Sporadic violence involving Georgian irregular forces and Ossetian fighters continued until the summer of 1992 when agreement on the deployment of Georgian, Ossetian and Russian peacekeepers was reached. Hundreds died in the fighting.
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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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