Real World Event Discussions

Screw 'em if they hate us

POSTED BY: 6ixStringJack
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 09:13
VIEWED: 19860
PAGE 11 of 30

6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:57 AM

Canada is just the quiet smart kid in class who doesn't need to be starting anything because they got nothing that anybody really wants and with the bully of the west right next store they have the privilege of keeping a low profile and living minimalistic lives. Nothing bad there, but you're comparing apples to oranges.

You mention many other countries further up the scale on all the good things in life. I'm just wondering if I'm talking to a world traveler or I'm talking to someone who has read a lot of books that agree with their own pessimistic viewpoint.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 21, 2008 12:46 PM

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[]b]Canada is just the quiet smart kid in class who doesn't need to be starting anything because they got nothing that anybody really wants and with the bully of the west right next store they have the privilege of keeping a low profile and living minimalistic lives. Nothing bad there, but you're comparing apples to oranges.

At least you see that we're a bully. So why don't you ask the question Do we HAVE to be The Bully of the West? What, exactly, will fall apart if The Bully is gone? I think you should think long and deeply about that question, because if you come up with an honest answer you'll uncover some assumptions that underly your thinking... assumptions so deep you don't even know they exist. And in my book, invisible assumptions are the enemy of clear thought.

But second, what do you mean by "leading minimalistic" lives? I have a couple of close Canadian friends and their lives are anything but "minimalistic"! They work hard. She's a neuropsychiatrist with a private practice (Yes, private practices thrive under Canada's "socialized medicine") and he's a QA manager for an international pharma. They work hard, travel extensively, are close to their families, and have rewarding lives so... ??? He had also lived in the USA for a number of years, and they both look at our country and shake their heads. The difference is that when he got lymphoma ten years ago, he got the full treatment including an autologous bone marrow transplant and didn't have to worry about running out of insurance.

The only thing "minimal" about Canada is their military budget IMHO. Now, if you want to talk about people being forced to live minimal lives, you should visit Mexico. For the average Mexican, the only "full" part of their lives is uncertainty and stress.

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You mention many other countries further up the scale on all the good things in life. I'm just wondering if I'm talking to a world traveler or I'm talking to someone who has read a lot of books that agree with their own pessimistic viewpoint.

Not a world traveler myself (except Mexico and Canada) but ny SO has close friends who vacation in Europe at least once every two years (This year it's a biking holiday in Germany.) and relatives who live in Hungary. What they notice is that people are not as stressed in Europe.

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Let's party like it's 1929.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, June 21, 2008 1:13 PM

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Originally posted by 6: Canada is just the quiet smart kid in class who doesn't need to be starting anything because they got nothing that anybody really wants and with the bully of the west right next store they have the privilege of keeping a low profile and living minimalistic lives. Nothing bad there, but you're comparing apples to oranges.

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Originally posted by SignyM: At least you see that we're a bully. So why don't you ask the question Do we HAVE to be The Bully of the West? What, exactly, will fall apart if The Bully is gone? I think you should think long and deeply about that question, because if you come up with an honest answer you'll uncover some assumptions that underly your thinking... assumptions so deep you don't even know they exist. And in my book, invisible assumptions are the enemy of clear thought.

I've said that 1,000 times in this board Signy. This is nothing new. It's not as if I've been Rap and suddenly had a revelation. So don't talk to me like I am because I happen to disagree with less than half of what you're saying. My history speaks for itself and I feel no need to go into details about it.

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But second, what do you mean by "leading minimalistic" lives? I have a couple of close Canadian friends, and like Rue I've visited Canada often (tho not as often as her.) Their lives are anything but "minimalistic"! They work hard. She's a neuropsychiatrist with a private practice (Yes, private practices thrive under Canada's "socialized medicine") and he's a QA manager for an international pharma. They work hard, travel extensively, are close to their families, and have rewarding lives so... ??? He had also lived in the USA for a number of years, and they both look at our country and shake their heads.

Good for them. My step sister is a doctor and her husband is a neuro-surgeon. I don't even talk to them much but I can't imagine they wouldn't be living the high life too... Unfortunatly, most of us aren't THOSE kinds of people. But do we spend like we're not THOSE kinds of people? Don't we..... really?

Go ahead and blame it on Capitalism Signy, but the majority of us (see: a vast majority of the 99% not in the top 1% of wealth in the country) spend beyond our means. Is that the government's fault too? Should they have coddled us and told us all how to live our lives the last 50 years? Maybe they could have gotten that done successfully by wiretapping all of our phones since WWII?

I

smoke and I'm told that it's my choice and I should have to deal with the consequences. Fair enough. What about a country addicted to debt? Are you going to blame your Government for that one too? Are you going to blame them for a majority of people getting themselves so deep in a hole that they become puppets and yes-men?

When does personal accountability come into play?

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The only thing "minimal" about Canada is their military budget IMHO.

My point exactly. Wouldn't it be nice to be the smart kid who slides by under the radar with little worries when the bully is right next door drawing all of the attention? With 11 aircraft carrriers (see: bloody behemoth death-machines of the sea).... and two more updated ones under construction now?

WITHOUT THE US, IF ANYTHING EVER WERE TO HAPPEN, CANADA WOULD BE ROLLED IN 5 SECONDS.....

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Now, if you want to talk about people being forced to live minimal lives, you should visit Mexico.

Who said anything about forced? I respect Candadians for living within their means. I didn't talk down about their standard of living. When you have a level head and separate your wants from your needs it's not too difficult to make a decent living and save a nest egg up (see: the means to personal freedom). Good for Canada for doing it.

This all comes down to personal accountability and your general person there compared to their fiscal counterpart here is wiser with their money simply becuase of th

6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, June 21, 2008 1:31 PM

Just because I truly believe that Our Country is much better in many regards to most other countries in many aspects does not make me a tunnel-visioned die Hard Rightist O'Rielly zombot.

So sue me. I belive that. You going to help me make other people in the world believe that like they used to, or are you going to join the world mob and stone a country that's veered off it's path to death for not being perfect?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 21, 2008 1:58 PM

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I've said that 1,000 times in this board Signy. This is nothing new. It's not as if I've been Rap and suddenly had a revelation. So don't talk to me like I am because I happen to disagree with less than half of what you're saying. My history speaks for itself and I feel no need to go into details about it.

So... what makes it so necessary that we continue to be The Bully of the West? What would happen if we were to collectively have a revelation and decided to change our foreign policy? You haven't come up with an answer.

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Good for them. My step sister is a doctor and her husband is a neuro-surgeon. I don't even talk to them much but I can't imagine they wouldn't be living the high life too... Unfortunatly, most of us aren't THOSE kinds of people.

My SO and I have similar professional lives. But WE spend our time trying to figure out how to insure our daughter once we're gone. Because the USA doesn't have universal health care, with our daughter's medical history it would be impossible for her to even buy medical insurance. So in order to ensure her care, we have to do all kinds of contortions just to make sure that she gets on the Medicare/ Medicaid roll. It's stressful and stupid and our system is wasteful and corrupt.

But, to go back to our friends... their families are not like they are. His dad was a train maintenance guy, his mom was a stay-at-home. They had four kids to support. "She" never knew her dad, but her mom is a certified nutcase. Their parents, siblings etc are not exactly international jet-setters, but their lives are also not "minimalist"! But he recalls, to this day, the day Canada went to universal health insurance. (He was a kid at the time) He said the stress level in his family went way down.

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But do we spend like we're not THOSE kinds of people? Do we really? Go ahead and blame it on Capitalism Signy, but the majority of us (see: a vast majority of the 99% not in the top 1% of wealth in the country) spend beyond our means. Is that the government's fault too?

No, it's capitalism's fault.

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I smoke and I'm told that it's my choice and I should have to deal with the consequences. Fair enough. What about a country addicted to debt?

6ix for god's sake get some education in economics! Capitalism is addicted to debt! It can't possibly exist any other way! That was Keynes' brilliant solution to the problem of the Great Depression!

Once you have sucked profit out of the "lower classes" ... how are they going to buy your products??? The only way to prevent the economy from collapsing is to put money back into the hands of that vast majority of people who do the vast majority of buying. It's supposed to work that way. Is it unstable? Will it lead to a greater collapse later? Well, it depends on how sustainable that cash flow is. If it's based on credit (like a housing bubble) it'll eventually fall apart. NOBODY SAID CAPITALISTS WERE SMART.

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Are you going to blame your Government for that one too?

Well, yes, I am. The government itself has gotten deeply into debt, and THAT is a direct cause of the falling dollar. So, you tel me...

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Are you going to blame them for a majority of people getting themselves so deep in a hole that they become puppets and yes-men?

Puppets? You're a puppet 6ix. AFA getting into a hole: About half of personal bankruptcies are due to medical costs. HALF. Now, I don't care how well-prepared, independent and frugal you think you are, a medical disaster will ruin your life.

As for the rest: You should read Nickel and Dimed

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Bringing funds all for unexpected expenses, approximately $1300, she leaves her home and her middle-class existence, with a few personal items and her car, for a few months of low wage work.

Starting off in her backyard, Ehrenreich searches for lodging and a job in neighboring Key West, Florida. After securing jobs at two restaurants and flirting with a one-day

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BIGDAMNNOBODY

Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:17 PM

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Originally posted by SignyM:
And THAT is capitalism doing what it does best: impoverishing people.

Why are we not all communist then?

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:40 PM

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Why are we not all communist then?

Turn it arouind... Why are we not all capitalists then?

Most of the world lives in an economic system which is not like the USA. More than 1.5 billion (that's with a "b") live under nominal communism (China, Russia) another half billion under tightly regulated production, which includes Japan, S Korea, Taiwan, Singapore etc. (Did you know that half of Taiwan's industries are nationalized?) Another half billion or so live under socialism (the EU). About 2.5 billion (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, most of Africa, and parts of South and Central America) live on farms in peasant, primitive, or plantation economies.

6ix- Let me make this as clear as possible. You say that if people stop being addicted to debt and live w/in their means then our problems will be over. I've been saying for well over a year... ask Fletch2... that capitalism is unsustainable and depends on debt ot keep it going.

Now, you yourself have said that the vast majority... 99%... spend more than we earn. What would happen to the economy if everyone were forced to live within their means?

Well, that is exactly what's happening because of the "credit crunch": people are being forced to live w/in theri means. And yanno what? The economy's collapsing as predicted.

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Let's party like it's 1929.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:53 PM

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Originally posted by SignyM:
More than 1.5 billion (that's with a "b") live under nominal communism (China, Russia)...

And where do you suppose the average Chinese/Russian person rank themselves on your standard of living scale?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
About 2.5 billion (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, most of Africa, and parts of South and Central America) live on farms in peasant, primitive, or plantation economies.

And this is better in your eyes than capitalism?

CITIZEN

Saturday, June 21, 2008 4:11 PM

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Originally posted by SignyM:
So... what makes it so necessary that we continue to be The Bully of the West? What would happen if we were to collectively have a revelation and decided to change our foreign policy? You haven't come up with an answer.

A lot of the people America's foreign policy has pissed off in the last fifty-sixty years will be turning around for pay back, sig. It would be like if Imperial Rome stopped sending the legions to the frontier. In fact that did happen, and the Romans started employing contractors like the Visigoths, who then turned around and sacked Rome. If American's want to change their foreign policy, it can't be done in one fell swoop, you'll have to do it gradually, and it'll be a hell of a lot of hard work. It's very easy to make enemies, and very difficult to lose them.

American's do sometimes seem to have this victim complex, perhaps it's just something that happens to the top dog; there was something similar in British sentiment of the 19th century, people always thought someone was about to invade the home islands. From the Revolutionary French under Napolean, the Second French Empire (again under a Napolean, the nephew this time), to the Prussians, there wasn't a decade when the British, who ruled a quarter of the world and were the unquestioned masters of the sea, weren't worried about someone invading. But back to the point, American's have often lamented why everyone hates them. And, back in the day it wasn't actually true, there was much in the way of nationalist jokes, usually along the lines of how all Americans are fat and stupid, but nothing you wouldn't find American's doing to other nationalities. But now, now things are different, people do actually hate America, not just the extremists, but there's growing anti-American sentiment in Europe (not that 'Freedom Fries' America has much of a moral majority to comment there). America had a fair bit of goodwill in Europe and elsewhere, during Clinton's presidency he helped to broker the lasting peace in Northern Ireland, and the somewhat more strained, but nonetheless lasting, peace in the Baltic's. Believe it or not, whatever you guys think of your last president, internationally he was somewhat respected, and did America's world image and reputation a world of good. By working for peace, by working with the UN, rather than against it, he showed that America wanted to be a part of the international community, not ride roughshod over it.

Then ya'll had to go vote for the drooling Texan cowboy wanna be didantchya. The guy that embodies just about every terrible national stereotype the world has of American's. The guy who thinks peace can only be attained at the end of a smart missile, the guy who only has interest in working with the international community, when they're doing what they're told to do. The arrogant, swaggering, lone star, ignorant cowboy hick: you put him in charge, and it's going to take a lot of Clinton's to get the good faith and respect that that chump has pissed away, back.

It's not going to be as simple and as easy as pulling out of Iraq, staying in Iraq as you our is bad, just pulling out is worse. It's not going to be a matter of pulling troops in from overseas. It's not going to be a matter of bending over for the UN. Though with American's being used to bending over most of the rest of the world and shafting them, letting them stand and pull their trousers back up may seem like just that, largely to the American Nationalists, Neo-Cons and War hawks I imagine.

It's going to take hard work, and a willingness to not get your own way all the time in order to rebuild your image America. Because half of international politics is compromise, and not getting your own way all the time, that's just how it is kiddies. America will have to show some contrition, not saying "yeah, we were wrong and everything is our fault since the dawn of time!!111!!", which is the spin geezer will no doubt attempt to put on my words, but by admitting that: you know what, yeah America

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 21, 2008 4:11 PM

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And where do you suppose the average Chinese/Russian person rank themselves on your standard of living scale?

Russia's experiment with laizzes faire capitalism (1990-2000) was a complete and unmitigated disaster. Comparing one to the other, Russians did better under their version of communism, as rigid and inefficient as it was. They are now heading back towards some version of a nationalized economy. China is expanding fast. The local joke (I know someone who spends at least three weeks a year in the Chinese hinterland) is that the national bird of China is the construction crane.

But I'm not a big proponent of nominal communism, just as I'm not a big proponent of primitivism. I think we should be heading in the EU direction. If I had my 'druthers tho, my vote would be for "economic democracy".

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Let's party like it's 1929.