Screw 'em if they hate us
POSTED BY: 6ixStringJack
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 09:13
VIEWED: 19860
PAGE 12 of 30
Quote:Haven't been following all the thread, but want to pitch in a few things...
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Just stop painting the picture that everywhere but here and Iraq is paradise. (Oh... and Mexico too)
First, I am a bit of a traveler. Been to every corner of the US except the deep south. I've spent time in the Caribbean (and not at resorts - had work projects. Yeah, that sucked.
), Canada, western Europe, the Middle East, Turkey, parts of the ex-Soviet Union, and New Zealand. Again - these were mostly work trips, and involved spending a lot of time with the locals. One thing I can tell you 6ix, is that all these people I've met spend a lot less time talking and thinking about the US than you seem to believe. In fact, they'd ask me questions about America more to be polite than because they really cared. They were much more interested in talking about their own home countries.
And when foreigners visit here - my company holds meetings where we bring folks from Euroope, Central Asia, China, and the Middle East to the states - they may marvel at our nice pavement and are thrilled to go to WalMart and buy cheap clothes to take home. But believe me, they are more than happy to go home. Oh yes they are! They LOVE their countries, flaws and all. Even if it is no paradies - and believe me, I've seen these places and in ways they are indeed far from paradise - they still LOVE their own ways of life. They look at all our wealth and "fancy ways" and say "Hmm. Interesting." And then they go home and forget about it, except for having a few stories to tell about how American is, same as you would tell stories about how China is or whatever.
This includes folks from poor and unstable countries. Even if many things are a challenge to them, they tend to focus on fixing their own country rather than: "I really wish I was in America." Or "I really wish we were just like America." Nope. Uh-uh. Not even a bit. To them, America is just a place over there, a distant country with a big ego and superiority complex. They think we're weird more than they envy or hate us.
It would do you good to travel. You might realize that the only people who put America on a mighty pedestal are Americans. Most of the rest really don't care.
The other thing I want to say: I do love my country. I have had opportunity to relocate - had a job offer in Europe that had the standard (for them) 35 hour work week and 5 weeks of vacation. (This was someone way up the thread meant by Americans working too much!) I turned it down because when I visited I just didn't feel at home there. There are things the states offer that I can't give up.
The reason my pride in my country doesn't display itself more often is that, since about 2002, the rightwing Bush propaganda machine - including folks on these boards - has redefined patriotism to mean In Support of Bush. For a while there, a wave of the American flag meant one thing: "I support Bush whole-heartedly no matter what he chooses to do." Anyone who argued against Bush was assumed to hate this country, which is absolute bullshit. It's been a battle to win the definition of patriotism back, to give it a more general definition again, so that we all can own it no matter our political affiliations.
My point is - instead of accusing people of not loving America, maybe you need to broaden your idea of what love of America means.
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Nice post, Citizen. I'm not sure what you mean here, though, since it's a bit ambiguous:
Quote:Did you mean "if, once he gets into office, Obama drops his insistence [...]", or did you mean "if Obama would just drop his insistence [...]"? Either way, I'm not sure that'd be a good thing to do, since he'd be going back on a (big) campaign promise, and apart from that, if he reneges on this pledge of his, I think there'd be a lot of unhappy people around the world and it'd be a very bad start to trying to repair America's image internationally.
That's why, if Obama drops his insistence to pull out of Iraq the moment he gets into office, he's the closest candidate you've got to one capable of repairing America's international image.
Btw, as far as I know, he plans to have a phased troop withdrawal over 16 months, perhaps longer if necessary, so it wouldn't be an immediate pull-out anyway.
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This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.
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Khyron:
I mean that on the whole Obama is the most credible candidate, with the only approach that has any chance of repairing America's image, but withdrawing troops from Iraq, even phased over 16 months, would be pretty disastrous. The American Army is between Iraq and chaos, much like the British army was between Iraq and chaos in the 1920's/30's, and we know where that ended up.
Point is if America withdraws, Iraq goes to shit, and everyone blames America. That's Obama's policy, and, IMHO it's toadying to an American public that's got bored of a protracted conflict.
McCain's policy is no better. McCain's policy is to keep going as it is, with a slow burning civil war killing at a higher rate than Saddam's death squads, destroying what's left of America's image and basically keeping with the same arrogant "do as we say, not as we do" policy that's caused America to take a lot of ill will.
Obama's idea is one extreme, McCain's is another. The only way to save Iraq, it's people and America's image (not to mention her credit rating) is to find another way. Part of that, is to my mind holding up your hands, admitting going into Iraq with little plan, and the way it was handled was a mistake. Then asking, not demanding, for help. But not just help with man power and money, handing over administration and decision making to an international body, which includes Iraqi's and their neighbours as at least equal partners. Obama could even keep something like that on plan, making the handover a gradual plan over the course of 16 months...
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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You got an answer for everything Signy.
Why don't you move then?
Obviously America isn't for you.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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If Obama wins we'll just be a seat at the UN in 4 years, we will lose the right to bear and cigarettes will cost 20 bucks a pack. That won't bother him though, because when he wants to smoke he can just dip into that book money and buy a pack.
Yeah... Obama smokes. Good luck getting a picture of it though. He's already a liar in my eyes. "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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It's funny, how we got the cigarette nazis from the crowd that wanted to 'legalize it' (pot) , back in the 60's.
That conundrum has always intrigued me.
I don't smoke, cigs or pot, but have no real problem with either. I grew up around smokers, so I sorta feel immune to the whole thing. Even sympathetic to them. ( As long as I'm not getting smoke blown in my face, mind you )
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:Quote:
My point is - instead of accusing people of not loving America, maybe you need to broaden your idea of what love of America means.
I've already done that. If you're accusing my patriotism as mindless love of Bush, you've obviously never read any of my posts in here.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:Let me adjust:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
If Obama wins we'll just be a seat at the UN in 4 years, we will lose the right to bear and cigarettes will cost 20 bucks a pack.
Though if you want an American hegemony, slowly turning more insular and paranoid as it becomes isolated from the world community, until the point it collapses under it's own Imperial overstretch, there's always John McCain, I hear he's not planning to do away with guns, Cigarettes or Alcohol, so that should please Oasis, it depends what you think is more important.
At any rate, he won't take guns and cigarettes away, he's black, man. He does need to give Rednecks anymore of an excuse :p.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:I'm older than dirt, I've been through a lot, and I've thought about it. I think that entitles me to have a few more ideas in my head than average, wouldn't you say?
You got an answer for everything Signy.
Quote:Because I love my country. DUH.
Why don't you move then?
Yanno Jack, mebbe you wouldn't feel so sick and tired if you just stopped defending.
You're a smart guy. Apply that brainpower.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:I mean much more than that, if you'll just put some effort into listening and thinking about it. Did you? At all? I'm thinking not, and let me explain why.
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:Quote:I've already done that. If you're accusing my patriotism as mindless love of Bush, you've obviously never read any of my posts in here.
Originally posted by mal4prez:
My point is - instead of accusing people of not loving America, maybe you need to broaden your idea of what love of America means.
I have a friend who was in Tiananmen Square when the shit went down. She spent all her cash on the very long bus ride to get there and risked life and limb and personal freedom in order to protest a government she didn't agree with. Afterward, her family begged her to go to school in the US, partly because she was brilliant and could get into any school she wanted, but mostly because she was never going to sit back and keep her mouth shut, never going to play the game and act like she loved the government. She hated the system in power, though she did and still does love the culture and people of China. She has been in the states for over a decade now, living apart from her family and home because she feels unsafe voicing her critical opinions there.
6ix, just a few posts ago, you said: "You got an answer for everything Signy. Why don't you move then? Obviously America isn't for you." Obviously, your idea of patriotism is to make America much like communist China, where people who disagree with too much must leave.
Pardon me for thinking you have a mind sorely in need of stretching. I would ask if you've considered that love of country means hating the aspects of it that drag it down, but several people have suggested that concept and you don't seem to get it.
Your attitude - that seeing flaws means a total absence of love, that Signy should leave because he doesn't toe your line - is something I very much hate. But I'm glad as hell that in this country you can say such things without any consequences. Well, other than making yourself sound like a complete asshole.
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