The Root of all Evil : The God Delusion

POSTED BY: Calhoun
UPDATED: Thursday, December 17, 2015 06:12
VIEWED: 49488
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CAUSAL

Thursday, May 24, 2007 2:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
I prefer to accept theories or information in general based on scientific evidence or factual data.

And therein lies your own set of unprovable beliefs.

Who says scientific data is the only kind of data that has evidentiary quality? Surely this is nothing more than epistemological imperialism. Much stock is given to the idea that only things that are empirically verifiable count as knowledge. But curiously, there's no way to empirically verify that idea!

Furthermore, the idea that only material things exist is also an unprovable hypothesis. Universal statements like that reduce to the form, "Given any X, X is physical." But that sort of universal is impossible to prove because to prove it, you'd have to have access to every X that currently exists, and ever did exist and ever will exist, and then you'd have to have a way to test all those Xs to see if they really were purely physical. And of course, it's ludicrous to think that we could ever gather all Xs for examination, and it's doubtful whether we're equipped to examine them all.

I guess the main point is that a purely scientific worldview rests on unprovable hypothesis, just like religion does. Its foundations rest on certain metaphysical and epistemological commitments which, though they be so widely repeated and so widely accepted as to appear to be beyond doubt, are really nothing more than the fruits of philosophical inquiry. To quote John Stuart Mill, "The truths which are ultimately accepted as the first principles of a science are really the last results of a metaphysical analysis."

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

MEG1448

Thursday, May 24, 2007 3:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Quote:
Originally posted by meg1448:
Actually, the Thirty Years War had a death toll of about 7 million. I only named a few of the well known ones. Also, think about all the religious martyrs. I'm not only talking about christianity, I'm talking all religions. Think about the constant terrorist attacks in the middle east....it's really not that hard, counting all religions since the beginning of time, for the death toll to rise into the hundred millions. I'm done now, this conversation will just raise my blood pressure.

So the "hundreds of millions" figure was just pulled out of thin air, then?

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

*sigh*

"Give me religion and a lobotomy."
Beulah Land-Tori Amos

TRUEBLUE

Thursday, May 24, 2007 3:16 AM

Religion is easily used as a tool of violence.

When you remove the need for logic and take it on "faith" you can justify to yourself/others illogical and obscene actions.

"Because God wants you to" sentiment has caused much pain and grief. God, him/her/itself is not the root of it, but it is an efficient and easy vehicle. Sadly one that has often been employed.

Without organised religion there may have been drastically less problems (it certainly would have made the destruction/death/pain more difficult), but maybe not. It is all hypothetical.

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I will think of a signature later. It will be so stunningly brilliant your entire life will pale into insignificance when compared to the few words that will be written here.

CALHOUN

Thursday, May 24, 2007 4:51 AM

Quote:
Causal wrote:
Wednesday, May 23, 2007 16:50
Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Calhoun:
I prefer to accept theories or information in general based on scientific evidence or factual data.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And therein lies your own set of unprovable beliefs.

Who says scientific data is the only kind of data that has evidentiary quality? Surely this is nothing more than epistemological imperialism. Much stock is given to the idea that only things that are empirically verifiable count as knowledge. But curiously, there's no way to empirically verify that idea!

Furthermore, the idea that only material things exist is also an unprovable hypothesis. Universal statements like that reduce to the form, "Given any X, X is physical." But that sort of universal is impossible to prove because to prove it, you'd have to have access to every X that currently exists, and ever did exist and ever will exist, and then you'd have to have a way to test all those Xs to see if they really were purely physical. And of course, it's ludicrous to think that we could ever gather all Xs for examination, and it's doubtful whether we're equipped to examine them all.

I guess the main point is that a purely scientific worldview rests on unprovable hypothesis, just like religion does. Its foundations rest on certain metaphysical and epistemological commitments which, though they be so widely repeated and so widely accepted as to appear to be beyond doubt, are really nothing more than the fruits of philosophical inquiry. To quote John Stuart Mill, "The truths which are ultimately accepted as the first principles of a science are really the last results of a metaphysical analysis."

Judging from the frequency and verbosity of your posts i'm starting to think that you're either a religious fanatic yourself or that you just like the sight of your own text.

CALHOUN

Thursday, May 24, 2007 4:53 AM

I was kinda hoping Citizen would weigh in a little more than he has.. I always enjoy his perspective.

CALHOUN

Thursday, May 24, 2007 4:57 AM

For anyone interested in downloading the torrent and checking it out here are some links http://isohunt.com/torrents/root+of+evil?ihs1=12&iho1=d&iht=1

CAUSAL

Thursday, May 24, 2007 12:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TrueBlue:
Religion is easily used as a tool of violence.

When you remove the need for logic and take it on "faith" you can justify to yourself/others illogical and obscene actions.

"Because God wants you to" sentiment has caused much pain and grief. God, him/her/itself is not the root of it, but it is an efficient and easy vehicle. Sadly one that has often been employed.

Without organised religion there may have been drastically less problems (it certainly would have made the destruction/death/pain more difficult), but maybe not. It is all hypothetical.

I think that maybe if there were no institutional religion, people would just find other things to justify their wars with. My basic assertion is that while it is true that religion has been the direct cause of much violence, it's probably less than is commonly suspected. Take the Thirty Years' War. It definitely started over religion. But by mid-way through the war, France (a Catholic country) was allied with Sweden (a Protestant country) because France felt threatened by the Hapsburg-dominated Spanish and Germans and Sweden wanted to face off with the Spanish. So it wasn't religiously motivated at that point--it was about shifting the European balance of power.

You're right that religion is easily used as a justification for violence, but so was Hitler's pseudo-scientific eugenics program. I think that one thing that's common to all the various instances of violence is that people perpetrate them. It's not that if we just removed the source of strife (be it religion for Dawkins or private property for Marx) the natural goodness of humanity would burst forth and we'd all march hand-in-hand into utopia. It's that we're hopelessly wretched creatures who always have and always will find excuses to brutalize one another.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

CAUSAL

Thursday, May 24, 2007 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
Judging from the frequency and verbosity of your posts i'm starting to think that you're either a religious fanatic yourself or that you just like the sight of your own text.

Judging from your response to my post, I'm starting to think that you're an anti-religious bigot or that you can't stand to listen to people who disagree with you.

I'm trying to discuss the questions at hand. I actually really enjoy talking about this stuff, hence the "frequency and verbosity" of my posts. And yes, I am a religious believer, but I'm also a philosopher, and as such I take exception to people who claim that I'm inherently irrational. If you'd bothered to read my last post, you'd see that that was the issue that I was trying to address. Science is founded on certain unprovable assertions no less than religion is. I suppose you can't be bothered to read, understand and respond to that though. Much easier to insult me. Plus if you can conveniently label me a "fanatic" it gives you a good reason to not have to listen to what I have to contribute to the conversation. In which case, you're being every bit as close-minded as the religious people you hold in such contempt.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

KHYRON

Thursday, May 24, 2007 1:22 PM

Causal, just to let you know, I'm not ignoring your question, I'll respond to it on the weekend. Only got time to post unfunny wisecracking one-liners at the moment.

Questions are a burden to others. Answers are prison for oneself.

KANEMAN

Thursday, May 24, 2007 4:48 PM

"It was quoted that surveys show around 45% of all americans believe the universe to be only 10,000 yrs old.."

I have a hard time believing that number, surely this can't be true. I know so many people and none of them would agree with that. That question must have been posed in a crazy religious area of the country........Well, I hope so.........

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