The Root of all Evil : The God Delusion

POSTED BY: Calhoun
UPDATED: Thursday, December 17, 2015 06:12
VIEWED: 49488
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CITIZEN

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
So Hitler was not using Christianity as a tool of violence but rather as a tool to dishonestly assuage the fears of a Christian nation that would never have willing accepted Hitler’s atrocities. While Hitler himself was clearly not a supporter of Christianity, unless he was using it to tell the Germans of his religiously tolerant policies.

I totally agree, however my original comment was toward the assertion that Religion played no part in Hitlers plans or those of the Nazis, when plainly it did.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

CAUSAL

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Ah, the RWE gang rolls in to disrupt our nice civil discussion.
I'm afraid, Casual, considering I didn't attack you, nor conduct myself in anything but a civil manner you don't get to blame me for any 'uncivil discourse' here. Especially when it is you who attacked me, I ask you, was this attack on me necessary? Or am I forbidden from having an opinion here?

Did you not see the big smiley face I put next to that comment? Or perhaps you began your reply before I had time to edit mine. In any event, that was meant as a bit of fun at your expense. Sorry that didn't quite come across.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

CAUSAL

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Ah, the RWE gang rolls in to disrupt our nice civil discussion.
I'm afraid, Casual, considering I didn't attack you, nor conduct myself in anything but a civil manner you don't get to blame me for any 'uncivil discourse' here. Especially when it is you who attacked me, I ask you, was this attack on me necessary? Or am I forbidden from having an opinion here?
Quote:
Hitler killed Jews because of his understanding of nationalism and Social Darwinism, with a little eugenics thrown in to boot.
Hitler killed the Jews because he was psychotic and lusted for power. He justified it with some psuedo-science, nationalism AND Catholicism.
Quote:
He didn't kill them because as a "Christian" it was his duty to kill Jews.
I never said he did. You said that Hitler, and the Nazis had nothing to do with religion, that is obviously not the case. They had tanks being blessed, Hitler played to the popular support of Catholics, the reasons for this (the fact they were the dominate group) are obvious, but the fact that HE didn't believe in Christianity, that HE didn't believe what they were doing was for the Christian god, does not remove the fact that many of his followers did.

I was merely pointing out that where you claim Hitler and Nazis 'had nothing to do with religion' isn't entirely the whole story.
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They cast the struggle as Aryan vs. Jew, not Christian vs. Jew.
They also cast it as building a Christian empire, that was what got a great deal of the population 'on side'.
Quote:
As well, I know that the Catholic church was silent, but complicit?
The Catholic church is known to have helped Nazis escape the Allies, the Pope used to be a member of the Hitler youth, the Catholic church holds more complicity than merely silence, but I was more thinking of the Catholics of Germany. Having said that, if Rome had not been so silent it's possible that Hitler wouldn't have gained that popular Catholic support.
Quote:
Hitler "couldn't have done it without them?" Those are claims in need of justification.
Really? You think saying "without the support of the largest group in Germany Hitler couldn't have done what he did" needs clarification?
Quote:
And if you're fond of pinning the blame for evil on religion, then why did Stalin, an atheist, slaughter (by some estimates) 10 million of his own countrymen? Or why did Pol Pot kill so many Cambodians?
You're making sweeping statements. Some evil acts being non-religious doesn't indicate there are no evil acts that are.

Furthermore, you're dragging me into a debate that I didn't comment on. I commented on one specific, that you seem to want to shoe horn into a generalisation I did not make.
Quote:
Sometimes religion makes a great cover for a power grab, but I'd submit that most of what is commonly taken as purely religious violence is really just a power grab dressed up pretty (which is what I think Hitler was after: popularizing his Anti-Semitism by dressing it up, rather than it being genuine religious conviction).
So Hitler not believing in Religion, not using that as his motivation, means his followers didn't? Does a cult leader not believing what he preaches mean cults aren't to blame for kool-aid incidents?

See? And this is why I don't like RWE discussions. My point with Hitler: religion wasn't the cause of the Holocaust. That's all.

I just plain disagree with you, that's all.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

CAUSAL

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
So Hitler was not using Christianity as a tool of violence but rather as a tool to dishonestly assuage the fears of a Christian nation that would never have willing accepted Hitler’s atrocities. While Hitler himself was clearly not a supporter of Christianity, unless he was using it to tell the Germans of his religiously tolerant policies.

Yes, I think that’s about right. I’ve just gotten done with a history course at university during which we spent some time studying the Holocaust. The professor spent lots of time working with the ideas of fascism and nationalism and eugenics, and didn’t mention any religious motivations on Hitler’s part. Hitler was, though, masterful at manipulating people to get them to do what he wanted. Manipulating their religious affections must certainly have been part of that, but that does not mean that religion was what was motivating the man.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

CAUSAL

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:36 PM

Mmm...double-post-y goodness...

CITIZEN

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Did you not see the big smiley face I put next to that comment? Or perhaps you began your reply before I had time to edit mine. In any event, that was meant as a bit of fun at your expense. Sorry that didn't quite come across.

I don't remember it being there when I replied.

Quote:
See? And this is why I don't like RWE discussions. My point with Hitler: religion wasn't the cause of the Holocaust. That's all. I just plain disagree with you, that's all.

Since I didn't say Religion was responcible for Hitlers thinking I'm not sure how you're 'disagreeing' with me

.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

CAUSAL

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Since I didn't say Religion was responcible for Hitlers thinking I'm not sure how you're 'disagreeing' with me .

See? See? You're bringing out my RWED instincts!

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

FREDGIBLET

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Furthermore, it ignores the violence perpetrated in the name of atheistic philosophies, such as Communism and Fascism, which far exceeds the violence perpetrated in the name of religion.

The mistake you are making here is that you are equating violence done in the name of a philosophy that includes atheism with violence done in the name of atheism. By this same logic all violence done in the name of theistic philosophies (which have outnumbered atheistic philosophies since the dawn of time) would be done in the name of theism. I'll grant the first point if you will grant the second since that still means that religion gets the higher body count.

MEG1448

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Quote:
Originally posted by meg1448:
Ludicrous? Really? It's been said before but I'll say it again....more people have died in the name of god than any other. Hundreds of millions have been the victims of religious persecution. The reason why we're still around is because we keep repopulating and because there are, thankfully, many rational people around. Religious extremists are really the problem. Not only do they believe whole-heartedly that what they preach is the only right way, some of them also wield enormous power. Unfortunately, they tend to give most religious people a bad name. To say that the violence perpetrated by atheists outweighs the violence perpetrated by people of faith is completely false and, well, fairly ridiculous. Atheists make up the vast minority of most cultures.

I'd like to see your sources on the "hundreds of millions" statistic.

I'd also like to see your sources on the notion that atheists are in the majority. Most cultural studies I've seen assert just the opposite. For instance, the CIA World Factbook ( https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/index.html) lists the percentage of Americans claiming no religion at all as 10%. And according to a 2002 Pew Research Poll ( http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html), only 1% of respondents claimed to be atheists! Hardly the majority you claim.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

Ummm, actually, I said that atheists were the vast MINORITY not majority.

Hundreds of millions isn't that big of a number when you consider the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Protestant Inquisition, the Thirty Years War, etc....not to mention human sacrifices and the like.

"Give me religion and a lobotomy."
Beulah Land-Tori Amos

CALHOUN

Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:00 PM

Quote:
Finn mac Cumhal wrote:
Wednesday, May 23, 2007 04:19
The title of this thread was not invented by the author of the thread. The author of this thread should have posted a link or cited some source. It is the name of a documentary, which seeks (to my understanding) to justify in some way the position that religion is root of all evil.

I thought the opening post made it quite clear that the title was from a documentary......

One of the main points of the documentary was that to believe in god one must cease all rational thought processes. Disregard all empiric and scientific evidence regarding the world and universe and just accept some words written in an old book to be the way of things.

It was quoted that surveys show around 45% of all americans believe the universe to be only 10,000 yrs old..

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