Nasty people

POSTED BY: rue
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 17:07
VIEWED: 4650
PAGE 1 of 1

RUE

Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:58 PM

TOWNHALL.com
Sunday, November 12, 2006

(banner ad at the top of the webpage)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KERRYHATESTHETROOPS.COM

Would you like to let John Kerry know what you think ?

SEND HIM A FAX RIGHT NOW !

Tell Senator Kerry to stop trashing our troops !
Tell him to stop aiding enemy propaganda !

Let him know you remember his long history of treason !
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(and as part of the suggested FAX)

And now your latest atrocity.

Senator Kerry, your apologies are worthless. You are acting like a propagandist for the enemy.

RUE

Sunday, November 12, 2006 10:08 PM

Anyway, so much for reasoned discussion from the right.

GEEZER

Sunday, November 12, 2006 11:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Anyway, so much for reasoned discussion from the right.

As opposed to the reasoned discussion from the Left at http://www.impeachbush.org

But that would be stereotyping folk, wouldn't it?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

RUE

Sunday, November 12, 2006 11:18 PM

Slick,

I HOPE people click on the link. I looked at it closely and at length trying to find what was wrong. Maybe they will point out to me what is the equivalent of the radical, personal, and frankly unhinged ad in ToonHall - I mean, TownHall.

Just to make it super easy - here's that link again http://www.impeachbush.org

SIMONF

Sunday, November 12, 2006 11:34 PM

Makes you wonder how much nicer politics would be with out the Internet. I'm sick of the crackpots on both sides of the politcial spectrum using their blogs and websites to holler at the top of their voices and preach hate.

RUE

Sunday, November 12, 2006 11:39 PM

I'm curious. Did you click on the link ? Was there anything you saw that called Bush a traitor, treasonous, a propagandist for the enemy etc? I'm curious b/c I looked at it and didn't see anything amiss. It seemed a fair summary of the items for which Bush could be impeached. I'm hoping you can tell me what is the problem with the site.

THANKS !

RUE

Sunday, November 12, 2006 11:53 PM

Also something that might be of interest (edited for length)

""The more you are bombarded by ads, the more you are going to be affected by that," Iacoboni said. "It's even philosophical — how much of free will do we have?""

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061103/ap_on_sc/political_ads_science

Scientists track effects of negative ads

By SETH BORENSTEIN, AP Science Writer
Fri Nov 3, 6:34 PM ET

WASHINGTON - The grainy black-and-white images appear on television, while ominous music plays in the background. It's another in a blizzard of negative political ads and before you consciously know it, the message takes hold of your brain. You may not want it to, but it works just about instantly.

In fact, the ad's effects on the brain "are actually shocking," says UCLA psychiatry professor Dr. Marco Iacoboni.

Iacoboni's brain imaging research from the 2004 presidential campaign revealed that viewers lost empathy for their own candidate once he was attacked.

Scientists around the country are logging the emotional and physical effects of negative political ads. Iacoboni tracked parts of the middle brain that lit up in brain scans when people watched their favorite candidates get attacked. Other scientists hooked up wires to measure frowns and smiles before the meaning of the ads' words sunk in. Mostly, researchers found that negative ads tend to polarize and make it less likely that supporters of an attacked candidate will vote.

"Everyone says, 'We hate them, they're terrible,'" said psychology professor George Bizer of Union College in Schenectady, N.Y.

However, he added, "They seem to work."

"The more you are bombarded by ads, the more you are going to be affected by that," Iacoboni said. "It's even philosophical — how much of free will do we have?"

Negative ads make supporters of the attacker more likely to vote and followers of the victimized candidate depressed and less likely to vote, said Stanford University communications professor Shanto Iyengar, co-author of the book "Going Negative: How Political Advertisements Shrink and Polarize the Electorate."

These ads do not get people to switch sides, Iyengar said. "You can't get them to vote for you, but maybe you can get them to stay home."

What makes these ads work, Iyengar said, are "emotional triggers."

Those triggers reach into our brains faster than words, ideas and rational thought, said Williams College political science professor George Marcus.

Bizer said his studies, which used fictional candidates, showed that when people form opinions based on negatives instead of positives, they are less likely to change their minds.

GEEZER

Monday, November 13, 2006 12:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Slick,

I HOPE people click on the link. I looked at it closely and at length trying to find what was wrong. Maybe they will point out to me what is the equivalent of the radical, personal, and frankly unhinged ad in ToonHall - I mean, TownHall.

Just to make it super easy - here's that link again http://www.impeachbush.org

Nothing more wrong there than at http://kerryhatesthetroops.com/
The site notes some of Sen. Kerry's more egregious anti-soldier quotes from the past 35 years and calls him on them. Not sure if that's unhinged, or just a reaction to Kerry's stated beliefs. People can make up their own minds by checking the site above.

So the point that there are extremes on both sides was just totally lost on you, huh?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

RUE

Monday, November 13, 2006 12:10 AM

For the record, this is what Slick said was at the site:

WHAT HE SAID
"The site notes some of Sen. Kerry's more egregious anti-soldier quotes from the past 35 years and calls him on them."

And this is what was actually at the site, right up on top in LARGE type:

WHAT THE SITE SAYS
AIDING ENEMY PROPAGANDA and
HIS LONG HISTORY OF TREASON

and further down
your apologies are worthless
You are acting like a propagandist for the enemy

--------------------------------------------------

This is not a mere 'noting' of comments or a 'calling him on them'.

SIGNYM

Monday, November 13, 2006 12:10 AM

2+2=4 is an "extreme" position, is it?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

GEEZER

Monday, November 13, 2006 12:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
For the record, this is what Slick said was at the site:

WHAT HE SAID
"The site notes some of Sen. Kerry's more egregious anti-soldier quotes from the past 35 years and calls him on them."

And this is what was actually at the site, right up on top in LARGE type:

WHAT THE SITE SAYS
AIDING ENEMY PROPAGANDA and
HIS LONG HISTORY OF TREASON

and further down
your apologies are worthless
You are acting like a propagandist for the enemy

--------------------------------------------------

This is not a mere 'noting' of comments or a 'calling him on them'.

I could pull nasty quote tidbits from the Impeachbush site as well, but what's the point? Both sites advocate rather extreme fringes of the left/right spectrum. However, we got links to both sites posted. Why not let people read them and make up their own minds?

The point is that there are fringes on both sides, but this does not mean that "reasoned discussion" cannot occur between the reasonable people on each side.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

RUE

Monday, November 13, 2006 12:48 AM

Slick,

I hope you WILL pull nastly quotes. Why not?

I looked and couldn't find any. To make it easy on you, here's that link again. http://www.impeachbush.org

GINOBIFFARONI

Monday, November 13, 2006 1:30 AM

Hey, come on now... lets find some middle ground

Most people I know think neither Bush or Kerry could Captain a rowboat without alienating one or both of the oarsmen.

Perhaps as your constitution is evolving to limit personal freedoms, it should also evolve to limit the executive powers you presently allow. If any new law designed to stop a rampaging Bush would also work to stop a rampaging Hillary Clinton... Would that not work for everyone ?

RUE

Monday, November 13, 2006 1:34 AM

That would be nice. But it seems to be that as the power of the 'unitary executive' goes up citizen liberties go down, ....

CHRISMOORHEAD

Monday, November 13, 2006 1:37 AM

Rue, don't take this as an aggressive line of questioning, but do you really believe that the liberal left hasn't done just as much harm to this country as the conservative right? I have a hard time understanding how anyone can defend either party so fervently.

[IMG]
Place my body on a ship and burn it on the sea,
Let my spirit rise, Valkyries carry me.
Take me to Valhalla where my brothers wait for me.
Fires burn into the sky, my spirit will never die.

RUE

Monday, November 13, 2006 1:38 AM

What has the 'liberal left' done that was so destructive?

CHRISMOORHEAD

Monday, November 13, 2006 2:03 AM

The general indifference to illegal aliens. This isn't just a redneck-patriot sentiment. The effect that this is having on our country, amongst other things, is the death of the middle class. If middle class people are forced to compete with slave wages, then you have all of middle America fall in to poverty. At that point, we live in soviet Russia. There's a ruling class, and an impoverished working class. That's not what this country's about.

Double standards, making things easier for minorities. It's not helpful to them. It's detrimental to tell people that we expect less from them because of their race, gender or creed. America thrives on a competitive market.

A host of other things. Neither party is interested in representing the people anymore, only in repaying special interest groups, and appealing just enough to any given class of American to get their vote. Confidence men.

But y'know, asking what the left's done that's destructive really betrays your true heart. You're not interested in discourse or reasoning, because you're already convinced that you're on the right side of things, that somehow your chosen party has got it all figured out.

And if that's not what you believe, then you asking me what they've done was just you trying to get me to say something so that you could take issue with it. If that's what your intention was, it's a dirty trick.

I think any reasonable person, here or anywhere else, realizes that no "wing" has a monopoly on good or bad ideas and actions. If you're one of them and I'm just mis-understanding your words and intent, then I apologize. I wont say another word if that's the case, because we're on the same side.

If, however, you're truly convinced in the infailability of the left, or even that it's noticeably better than the right, then I also have nothing more to say to you, because I know people like you are unwilling to compromise even the slightest detail of their opinions. As long as people like you make up the majority of either side of the political system, this country will continue to suffer. There are more than just the two sides to every issue.

[IMG]
Place my body on a ship and burn it on the sea,
Let my spirit rise, Valkyries carry me.
Take me to Valhalla where my brothers wait for me.
Fires burn into the sky, my spirit will never die.

GEEZER

Monday, November 13, 2006 2:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Slick,

I hope you WILL pull nastly quotes. Why not?

I looked and couldn't find any. To make it easy on you, here's that link again. http://www.impeachbush.org

Click on "NY Times Ad" at the top of the page, and get:

Quote:
President George W. Bush, Vice President Richard B. Cheney, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of Defense Donald
H. Rumsfeld, and Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales have committed violations and subversions of the Constitution of the United
States of America in an attempt to carry out with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes and deprivations of the
civil rights of the people of the United States and other nations, by assuming powers of an imperial executive unaccountable to law
and usurping powers of the Congress, the Judiciary and those reserved to the people of the United States.

About matches the tone of the anti-Kerry retoric, don't you think?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

RUE

Monday, November 13, 2006 2:36 AM

CHRISMOORHEAD

I TOOK THIS OUT OF CONTEXT IN ORDER TO REPLY to this one thing. "You're not interested in discourse or reasoning ..."

Actually, I really wanted to know. I have a laundry list of destructive things the Bush administration, and the republican congress before him, have done. And so I really wanted to know what's so bad about the democrats - in detail. Not just arm waving and 'they're all the same ... there's no difference' over and over.

You seemed like you had something in mind so I was hoping you could tell me. Draw me the big bad picture. You needn't go into huge detail - just enough to focus on each thing you see as an issue.

RUE

Monday, November 13, 2006 2:43 AM

Slick would have you believe that the follwing site had these words:

Quote:
President George W. Bush, Vice President Richard B. Cheney, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of Defense Donald
H. Rumsfeld, and Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales have committed violations and subversions of the Constitution of the United
States of America in an attempt to carry out with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes and deprivations of the
civil rights of the people of the United States and other nations, by assuming powers of an imperial executive unaccountable to law
and usurping powers of the Congress, the Judiciary and those reserved to the people of the United States.

FOR THE RECORD the site had no such language.

GEEZER

Monday, November 13, 2006 3:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Slick would have you believe that the follwing site had these words:
Quote:
President George W. Bush, Vice President Richard B. Cheney, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of Defense Donald
H. Rumsfeld, and Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales have committed violations and subversions of the Constitution of the United
States of America in an attempt to carry out with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes and deprivations of the
civil rights of the people of the United States and other nations, by assuming powers of an imperial executive unaccountable to law
and usurping powers of the Congress, the Judiciary and those reserved to the people of the United States.
FOR THE RECORD the site had no such language.

Try http://www.impeachbush.org/site/DocServer/NYT_IMPEACHBUSH_FINAL_3.pdf?
docID=121

It's a link to another page of the site, shown at the top of the impeachbush.com homepage, as I noted above.

You're not usually this sloppy. Are you OK?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Monday, November 13, 2006 3:56 AM

I looked at both sites.

I'm not gonna attribute this quote, but it's an incorrect exxaggeration:
"The site notes some of Sen. Kerry's more egregious anti-soldier quotes from the past 35 years"

It quotes exactly 3 items, one from 1971, one from last December, and the bad joke from last month. I thought it was gonna quote item after item, each with date and specific content, from a 35 year long career of constant treason. Three items isn't much to build a 35 year career on.

Impeachbush has a long list of relativelty specific charges, some of them inflated, presented in fairly objective legal terms-- "Bush and Cabinet did this": " Bush and cabinet did that"; "Bush said so and so."

These are charges, accusations, open to being argued, proved or disproved. Some of them are true. Some of them *M*I*G*H*T* be sufficiently " high crimes and misdemeanors" to require impeachment. Like " lying to Congress"-- Bill Clinton *W*A*S* impeached for lying to Congress about his sex life, a private matter of proper concern only to himself, his wife, and Monica.

Would lying to Congress, in such a manner as to cause a war; kill thousands of American soldiers and 10's of thousands of Iraqi civilians; waste billions of American tax dollars; and violate international laws, be a concern of sufficient public degree to allow consideration of impeachment?

RUE

Monday, November 13, 2006 3:59 AM

The SITE contains no such language.

Almost contains, kind of contains, implying it contains - does not mean it contains such language.

BABYWITHTHEPOWER

Monday, November 13, 2006 4:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
You're not usually this sloppy. Are you OK?

People tend to get sloppy when they blindly buy into everything a particular side of an argument force feeds them and they defend it with no solid backing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll be in my bunk.
http://www.myspace.com/babywiththepower
http://members17.clubphoto.com/michael809717/guest-1.phtml

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

RUE

Monday, November 13, 2006 4:48 AM

KERRYHATESTHETROOPS.com

Would you like to let John Kerry know what you think ?

SEND HIM A FAX RIGHT NOW !

Tell Senator Kerry to stop trashing our troops !
Tell him to stop aiding enemy propaganda !

Let him know you remember his long history of treason !

Senator John Kerry has trashed our fighting men and women once again. He was so out of line that even his fellow Democrats told him to shut up and go away until after Election Day.

But he needs to hear from you! Fax him a message right now to his Senate office in Washington, D.C., and to his home office in Boston.

Here's how to do it. Simply fill out your name, address and e-mail address in the space below, along with payment information on our secure server. For just $1.99, we'll send an individual fax in your name to Senator Kerry's office in Washington, D.C. For just another $1.00, we'll send the same fax to his home office in Boston - just to make sure he sees it.

To support our wounded troops, we will send half the proceeds to Fisher House, a charity that helps America's military forces and families in time of need.

SEND A FAX TO JOHN KERRY!
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Dear Senator Kerry:

As a supporter of our fighting forces in Iraq, I am writing to tell you that your continued attacks on our people are despicable.

On October 30, you told college students in Los Angeles, "You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework, you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq."

If it was a botched joke aimed not at the troops but at our wartime president, why didn't you say so when it mattered?

You have a lifelong pattern of trashing our warfighters while they are battling the enemy.

In 1971, after your Winter Soldier conference funded by Jane Fonda, you compared our troops in Vietnam to Genghis Khan, one of history's most notorious barbarians. You testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that American forces "raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot civilians, razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan."

Last December, after your colleague Senator Dick Durbin compared our people to Stalin and the Nazis, you told the world on CBS "Face the Nation" that American troops in Iraq were acting like terrorists. You said that "young American soldiers" were "going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children."

And now your latest atrocity.

Senator Kerry, your apologies are worthless. You are acting like a propagandist for the enemy. Stop sniping at our warfighters, and start helping them win the war.

Sincerely,

YOUR NAME

This site is sponsored by SecuretheHomeland.org. Produced by BlackFlagMedia, LLC. Fisher House is an independent charity that is not affiliated with SecuretheHomeland.org or BlackFlagMedia, and is not responsible for the content of this websit

RUE

Monday, November 13, 2006 4:55 AM

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RUE

Monday, November 13, 2006 5:00 AM

I see no difference at all between the two sites.

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Monday, November 13, 2006 5:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
KERRYHATESTHETROOPS.com

( snipped all content)

This site is sponsored by SecuretheHomeland.org. Produced by BlackFlagMedia, LLC. Fisher House is an independent charity that is not affiliated with SecuretheHomeland.org or BlackFlagMedia, and is not responsible for the content of this website. Signatories to the letter to Senator Kerry consent to receive email correspondence from SecuretheHomeland.org, BlackFlagMedia and their associates.

I picked up on this disclaimer when I viewed the site. I wondered who the people behind it were? What was their background?

THen I saw this. " we aren't responsible. We could be lying, cheating, defrauding. but it's not our fault. We don't have the courage to identify ourselves and to stand up and stand behind our attack

RUE

Monday, November 13, 2006 5:41 AM

Yeah, I was going to try to track that down, but I have some things I need to do for tomorrow AM.

BABYWITHTHEPOWER

Monday, November 13, 2006 5:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
The SITE contains no such language.

Almost contains, kind of contains, implying it contains - does not mean it contains such language.

What he wrote is a direct quote off of one of the pages on the SITE you defend so vehemently. Open your damn eyes and read before you shoot off at the mouth and make yourself look like a fool.

To make it easy on you, here's that link again: http://www.impeachbush.org/site/DocServer/NYT_IMPEACHBUSH_FINAL_3.pdf?
docID=121

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll be in my bunk.
http://www.myspace.com/babywiththepower
http://members17.clubphoto.com/michael809717/guest-1.phtml

RUE

Monday, November 13, 2006 6:03 AM

Oh, is that accessed by a LINK? No wonder the text didn't show up on the web page. HOW ABOUT THAT ! It wasn't there !

Look, I have things to do. Unless you have something better to say, I won't be responding.

SIGNYM

Monday, November 13, 2006 6:22 AM

Oh dear.

Well, jumping in with both feet... let me get my waders first...

Quote:
In 1971, after your Winter Soldier conference funded by Jane Fonda, you... testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that American forces "raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot civilians, razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan."

Yeah, and....? Kerry's testimony was unfortunately all too true. I don't know how many of you are old enough to clearly remember the Vietnam war... prolly most of you aren't... but I do. VERY clearly. It was a dirty war, and killing civilians was the norm, not just in massacres like My Lai but thru liberal use of carpet bombing, napalm, and Agent Orange, which dumped thousands of pounds of dioxin and contaminated our troops as well. Progress, such as it was, was measured in body counts. So before you go shooting off your mouths and look like fools, you might want to watch "Hearts and Minds" http://www.criterionco.com/asp/release.asp?id=156 put together from newsreel footage of the time where you get to see US Marines kicking bound prisoners and shoving them to their deaths out helicopter doors.

Quote:
You said that "young American soldiers" were "going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children."

That is also true. And while I'm not sure that the Iraq war is as "dirty" as the Vietnam War (the Pentagon learned from Vietnam to control war news is all directions) the latest and most robust estimate of Iraqi dead is 650,000.

I fail to see how 2+2=4 is an extremist statement. Only people who are trying to hide from truth would find it so.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

RUE

Monday, November 13, 2006 8:00 AM

Since I read ToonHall every blessed day, I think I'll just post a selection of those hate-filled rants as they come my way. For all the right-wing-nuts on the board.

BABYWITHTHEPOWER

Monday, November 13, 2006 9:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Oh, is that accessed by a LINK? No wonder the text didn't show up on the web page. HOW ABOUT THAT ! It wasn't there !

Look, I have things to do. Unless you have something better to say, I won't be responding.

Well, it wasn't on the front page, but it was on the site. Don't get into semantics with me, if you were too lazy to read the site that's your own problem. And you arguing against it without haveing read the site just shows that you are either a)lazy, b)ignorant, c)foolish, or d)all of the above. Thanks for coming out.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Since I read ToonHall every blessed day, I think I'll just post a selection of those hate-filled rants as they come my way. For all the right-wing-nuts on the board.

Because they're any worse than you and your band of radical leftists. Frankly both groups make me sick. Most of you, and by 'you' I'm refering to both the extreme left and the extreme right, have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and just eat up the mounds and mounds of

your parties force feed you without doing any kind of research that isn't slanted or biased.

Rather than point fingers at one party or another and blame them for all these problems, why don't you get off your asses and do something to better this country? This isn't a pissing contest, stop acting like children. You're not going to accomplish a damn thing by making yourself look like a fool on a message board. So, why not put your money where your big mouth is and make a change instead of waiting for others to make them for you.

Now, unless any of you have anything constructive to add to this discussion (I refrain from using the term 'argument' because that implies a level of candor and intelligence that seems fleeting in this thread) I think it should be laid to rest.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll be in my bunk.
http://www.myspace.com/babywiththepower
http://members17.clubphoto.com/michael809717/guest-1.phtml

RUE

Monday, November 13, 2006 10:25 AM

babywiththepower

"Rather than point fingers at one party or another and blame them for all these problems, why don't you get off your asses and do something to better this country? So, why not put your money where your big mouth is and make a change instead of waiting for others to make them for you."

Just because I come to this site every few days, why do you PRESUME that I don't actually, you know, DO anything? Let's see ... my JOB is making a better environment. Donated lots of time to the city recyling commission. Donate lots of $$ - tithe actually - to people trying to preserve the environment. Take care of family. Union steward (unpaid). All in all I work HARD at trying to make this a better world.

And what do YOU do ?

If you don't answer I'll take it you do - nothing. Except of course personally attack posters here based on nothing more than your own crappy ASSumptions.

BABYWITHTHEPOWER

Monday, November 13, 2006 11:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Oh let's see ... my JOB is making a better environment. Donated lots of time to the city recyling commission. Donate lots of $$ - tithe actually - to people trying to preserve the environment. Take care of family. Union steward (unpaid). All in all I work HARD at trying to make this a better world for the next generation.

And YOU ? What do YOU do ?

I don't know what your job is, but the environment is being raped the world over. You may help preserve your little patch of land, and for that I am truely grateful, but globaly I doubt you're company is having much effect.

Recycling anything but metal is actually hurting the environment more than it's helping it. True it helps the economy (i.e. more jobs, comunity funding, etc) but the waste created from recycling projects, bleech waste from recycling paper, for example, have to be dumped somewhere, and no matter ho safe a company claimes to be, that stuff will be in our water supply or poison our soil before long. Entire forests are grown simply to make paper, we are not in a position of running out. Same can be said about the sand needed to make glass. Doubt we're going to run out of sand ever.

If your money is going to organizations like Green Peace and PETA, you're wasting your time and hard earned money. I don't have it readily available, but you should look up the founder of Green Peace and read all the reasons he's given for leaving the organization. It's very educational. And PETA openly supports ecoterrorism.

As far as what I do, well, for starters I served this country in the US Army until an injury forced me out. In the scheme of things I was one soldier among many, but I did everything I could do to ensure the freedoms you enjoy so much. I'm working on organizing a petition to institute a vote in Illinois to refuse to accept the Real ID because it's a violation of countless civil rights. I'm an avid supporter of groups like the NRA that constantly go to bat protecting our Second Ammendment rights. I'm going to start getting actively involved in groups that want to start inhibiting all the handouts given to illegal aliens. To name a few.

You might be trying to save the world, and good on you for that. What I said in my post was "why don't you get off your asses and do something to better this country?" The key word there being country. The rest of the world can do what they want, American's need to start worrying about America. All you have done in your ranting here is talk alot without really saying anything. You've simply talked about what evil people the group in opposition to you are with nothing but one site showing what extreme followers of that group have to say. You made a hasty generalization that was unfounded and completely unfair, and people responded negatively to that.

What Kerry said was shitty, whether you believe it to be a joke or not. He is a worthless piece of shit and I hope someone makes him choke on his words someday. What he said was a venomous remark to myself and any other American that stood up and had the strength of character needed to put on that uniform, and personally he can take his appology, if he ever makes one, and shove it up his ass. I've got no use for him. And it has nothing to do with the fact that he's a Demoncrat, I hate both parties equally, so don't put words into my mouth and say that I'm just another one of those "right-wing-nuts" as you so ignorantly put it earlier.

Edit: (7:45am CST) I just noticed how much your post changed after I wrote this one. Interesting that you'd log on to change it but not respond to this one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll be in my bunk.
http://www.myspace.com/babywiththepower
http://members17.clubphoto.com/michael809717/guest-1.phtml

SIGNYM

Monday, November 13, 2006 12:32 PM

Quote:
What Kerry said was shitty, whether you believe it to be a joke or not. He is a worthless piece of shit and I hope someone makes him choke on his words someday. What he said was a venomous remark to myself and any other American that stood up and had the strength of character needed to put on that uniform, and personally he can take his appology, if he ever makes one, and shove it up his ass. I've got no use for him. And it has nothing to do with the fact that he's a Demoncrat, I hate both parties equally, so don't put words into my mouth and say that I'm just another one of those "right-wing-nuts" as you so ignorantly put it earlier.

Baby- you're so hate-filled it's bleeding through your post and drippping all over my keyboard. You don't even make sense... all I get from your post is that you're mad as hell. Just bc you served in the armed forces doesn't give you a "pass" on being a rational human being. What makes you so very very angry?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

GEEZER

Monday, November 13, 2006 1:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
The SITE contains no such language.

Almost contains, kind of contains, implying it contains - does not mean it contains such language.

Brush up on your geek-speak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_site

The site does contain that language, on one of its pages. Saying something is not on a site just because it isn't on the home page would be like saying this thread isn't on fireflyfans.net because the entire address at the top of the page isn't http:/fireflyfans.net

"Keep the Shiny side up"

BABYWITHTHEPOWER

Monday, November 13, 2006 1:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Baby- you're so hate-filled it's bleeding through your post and drippping all over my keyboard. You don't even make sense... all I get from your post is that you're mad as hell. Just bc you served in the armed forces doesn't give you a "pass" on being a rational human being. What makes you so very very angry?

What about that portion of post you quoted was irrational? Did you hear what Kerry said? It didn't matter what he intended by it, what he said was very disrespectful to those serving, and I'm sorry, but once something is said it can't be unsaid. He can dance around it all he wants and say that it was intended as a jab at Bush, but that's not how it came across. There are other reasons I have zero respect for the man (quoting an article from The Onion as fact durring his campaigning in Wisconsin, for example) but I don't feel like going into all of them. My statement was angry, yes. But in no way was it irrational. Personally I'm glad in a way that Kerry made that comment. I think alot of people got to see him for what he really is. The rest, well, they can think whatever they want. That is, afterall, their right. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll be in my bunk.
http://www.myspace.com/babywiththepower
http://members17.clubphoto.com/michael809717/guest-1.phtml

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

SIGNYM

Monday, November 13, 2006 4:08 PM

Baby- here it is:

Quote:
... but the environment is being raped the world over. You may help preserve your little patch of land, and for that I am truely grateful, but globaly I doubt you're company is having much effect.

whihc implies that environmetnal efforts that are less than worldwide are ineffective followed by

Quote:
You might be trying to save the world, and good on you for that. What I said in my post was "why don't you get off your asses and do something to better this country?" The key word there being country. The rest of the world can do what they want, American's need to start worrying about America.

So, which is it? Isolationism? Creating local parks, saving our greenery, or acting globally? Either way it doesn't seem like that's what you want. Also,

Quote:
What Kerry said was shitty, whether you believe it to be a joke or not. He is a worthless piece of shit and I hope someone makes him choke on his words someday. What he said was a venomous remark to myself and any other American that stood up and had the strength of character needed to put on that uniform...

You DO know that he served in one of our dirtiest wars ever, right? And he wasn't sitting in some AC'd office on Saigon or being a Texas flyboy, he was actually getting shot at. So while you're wrappping yourself in the righteous indignation of one who has served, you might want to save a little piece of that wrap for Kerry. Unless, of course, YOU want to bash "the troops" too?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

SIGNYM

Monday, November 13, 2006 4:12 PM

Geezer, I still fail to see how 2+2=4 is an "extremist" statement. Each statement has to be plumbed for truth. Some statements may be true. Others may be false. For example, I know what Kerry said about Vietnam is true and is not an extremist statment. Calling him a traitor for speaking an uncomfortable truth is IMHO false.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

RIGHTEOUS9

Monday, November 13, 2006 4:43 PM

It is crazy that to these people telling the truth is denegrating the troops...

or that, when they can even go to an original transcript of a speech, that proves to them that Kerry's latest fopa was not an attack on the troops but a screwed up joke, they still let it be used for propaganda...

and that they would equate the position many of us liberals take, that bush should be impeached for things we already know, for lies we know of, for breaking the supreme laws of the land, to extremism.

Apparently, they don't hold the truth sacred, they don't hold the rule of law sacred, they don't hold lives of Iraqis or American Soldiers sacred...

the only thing they care about is their own egos. all that concerns them is that the 'reality' they've manufactured for themselves remain unburst by the needling truth, because they don't like to feel scared, and finding out everything they believed in is a lie is a kind of death after all, and may be too much to ask.

"you won't. There is nothing left to see." - Operative

GEEZER

Monday, November 13, 2006 5:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, I still fail to see how 2+2=4 is an "extremist" statement. Each statement has to be plumbed for truth. Some statements may be true. Others may be false. For example, I know what Kerry said about Vietnam is true and is not an extremist statment. Calling him a traitor for speaking an uncomfortable truth is IMHO false.

Huh? I make no claims about the truth or falseness of either site. Both sites are, in my opinion, reasonably extreme examples of their ends of the political spectrum. I doubt that most Democrats actually want to impeach the entire upper level of the Bush administration, and I doubt most Republicans want to send an insulting fax to Sen. Kerry. Impeachbush was just the first I found on the Left. There may be more extreme ones out there, as there may be more extreme ones on the Right.

The point is: non-fringe people from both sides of the political divide CAN hold reasoned discussions. Add one inflexible extremist from either side, and things go downhill. A corollary is that the inflexible extremist usually doesn't realize that they are. They consider their viewpoint the only logical one and will not compromise on it.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Tuesday, November 14, 2006 12:56 AM

oops

SIGNYM

Tuesday, November 14, 2006 12:57 AM

Quote:
I doubt that most Democrats actually want to impeach the entire upper level of the Bush administration, and I doubt most Republicans want to send an insulting fax to Sen. Kerry. Impeachbush was just the first I found on the Left. There may be more extreme ones out there, as there may be more extreme ones on the Right. The point is: non-fringe people from both sides of the political divide CAN hold reasoned discussions. Add one inflexible extremist from either side, and things go downhill. A corollary is that the inflexible extremist usually doesn't realize that they are. They consider their viewpoint the only logical one and will not compromise on it.

But what if ONE side is truthfully and factually correct and the other side is just malicious hot air? Is the person who is correct supposed to defer to a troll?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

ERIC

Tuesday, November 14, 2006 1:02 AM

Speaking of Nasty people (i.e, couldn't find a better place to post it):

FBI Arrests Right Wing Conservative Terrorist

http://www.rawstory.com/showoutarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.msnbc.
msn.com%2Fid%2F15692306%2F

Quote:
"WASHINGTON - A California man suspected of mailing threatening letters containing a suspicious white powder to celebrities and U.S. politicians has been arrested and could face federal charges on Monday, the FBI said.

Investigators identified Chad Castagana, 39, of Woodland Hills, California, as the person suspected of sending more than a dozen threatening letters to media outlets and the homes of public figures in various cities, the FBI said in a statement on Sunday evening.

According to a federal search warrant, among those who received threatening letters were Jon Stewart of Comedy Central’s “The Daily Show;” talk show host David Letterman; Keith Olbermann of MSNBC; Rep. Nancy Pelosi of California, who is set to become Speaker of the House of Representatives, and Sen. Charles Schumer of New York, both Democrats."

And, surprise surprise, he's a Freeptard!

http://sadlyno.com/archives/4268.html

GEEZER

Tuesday, November 14, 2006 3:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But what if ONE side is truthfully and factually correct and the other side is just malicious hot air? Is the person who is correct supposed to defer to a troll?

Quote:
A corollary is that the inflexible extremist usually doesn't realize that they are. They consider their viewpoint the only logical one and will not compromise on it.

QED

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Tuesday, November 14, 2006 6:14 AM

Quote:
But what if ONE side is truthfully and factually correct and the other side is just malicious hot air? Is the person who is correct supposed to defer to a troll?- Signy

A corollary is that the inflexible extremist usually doesn't realize that they are. They consider their viewpoint the only logical one and will not compromise on it.-Geezer

Geezer, I specifically didn't point out either "side" as correct or incorrect. I gave a couple of examples. For the sake of balance, I'll point out that calling Bush a "war criminal" is not correct because he hasn't been tried and convicted. In fact, I think that ALL statements need to be plumbed for truth... that means on BOTH sides. But what if one side says 2+2=4 and the other says 2+2=22? Is the correct answer somewhere between 4 and 22, or is it incumbent on us not to reach a "compromise" but to find the TRUTH?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

GEEZER

Tuesday, November 14, 2006 1:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But what if one side says 2+2=4 and the other says 2+2=22? Is the correct answer somewhere between 4 and 22, or is it incumbent on us not to reach a "compromise" but to find the TRUTH?

But it's not "...one side says 2+2=4 and the other says 2+2=22." It's a few people on one side saying 2+2=2 and a few people on the other side saying 2+2=22. You can't have a reasoned discussion with these people. Ignore them, or at least don't try to change their minds, since they won't change. Look for people on the other side who are willing to lok for solutions, not arguments.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Tuesday, November 14, 2006 2:11 PM

Geezer, you're making about five or six different points (What I think of as the birdshot approach).

Quote:
It's a few people on one side saying 2+2=2 and a few people on the other side saying 2+2=22.

Yes, that's always a possibility. But as you yourself said I make no claims about the truth or falseness of either site . You called these sites "extreme" not because you've examined their statements in detail and found them BOTH to be incorrect but because they don't seem representative of the typical opinion to you. But until/unless we look at their statments and premises in detail, we can't automatically say WHICH side is wrong. More likely BOTH sites contain some truth and some falsehood, but one site may on balance be more correct than the other.

Quote:
You can't have a reasoned discussion with these people.

This is a different point. After years of wrangling with people on this board I've come to realize that you can have a "reasoned discussion" with ANYONE provided that you both follow the rules: stick to the point, be logical, don't deliberately lie etc etc. I haven'tr actually tried to discuss anything with the originators of the sites. It's possible that both are open to reasoned dsicussion.

Quote:
Ignore them

That's the option you chose. It certainly closes off the possibility of figuring out if either side is correct or of learning anything new.

Quote:
or at least don't try to change their minds, since they won't change.

This is a different point. I'm not necessarily going to try and change EITHER side because, as I've said, one side may be reasonably correct and I might be in danger of throwing out the baby with the bath water, so to speak.

Quote:
Look for people on the other side who are willing to lok for solutions, not arguments.

This is yet another point. But to be reasonable about this, unless we already agree what the problems are and the CAUSE of the problems it's going to be hard to look for "solutions" that we can agree on. What if the source of our problems really is "lack of will" and all we need to do is get behind the troops for a concentrated five-year push, at the end of which our problems with radical Islamic fundamentalism will be gone?

EDITED TO ADD: Until two parties come to the nub of a disagreement... fundamental a priori assumptions which cannot be proved or disproved... both sides fully understanding the other's viewpoint, and either sway, be swayed, or agree to disagree then I don't consider the discussion closed. Unfortunately I find few people willing to track a discussion that long.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

RUE

Tuesday, November 14, 2006 6:31 PM

"Edit: (7:45am CST) I just noticed how much your post changed after I wrote this one. Interesting that you'd log on to change it but not respond to this one."

Then someone has access to my login, b/c your post showed up AFTER I turned the computer off and went to bed. I was waiting for you to reply, then gave up ....

RUE

Tuesday, November 14, 2006 6:44 PM

For the record:

There are OBVIOUS differences between the two sites.

-----------------------

ONE SITE is SPECIFICALLY set up for a PERSONAL attack against Kerry for three things spanning 35 years.

One was telling the truth rather than covering it up in Congressional hearings. One was some remark which went unspecified. And one for was a muffed joke.

It calls him - without basis - a traitor, treasonous, an enemy propagandist and other heinous names. It inflames its readers to engage in personal attacks. And it directs PERSONAL HATE EMAIL to Kerry.

My take: since the group knows there is nothing illegal about anythihng that Kerry did they are doing the extra-legal internet lynching the right has so successfully launched in the past against others.

--------------------

The OTHER SITE calls for legal POLITICAL action. It bases that call on DOCUMENTED FACTS. It's not engaged in extra-legal activities.

--------------------

My take - unfortunately, there are people here who are so hate-filled they have become delusional. And there are other people here who have a vested interest in purposefully propagandizing this board.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:54 PM

Apparently Geezer doesn't want to discuss the specifics of each site. Too bad.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

RUE

Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:19 PM

ChrisM

"... do you really believe that the liberal left hasn't done just as much harm to this country as the conservative right?"

I was sincere when I asked you for a list of all the harm the 'liberal left' has done. I'm still hoping you reply.

RUE

Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:31 PM

Then how can he say whether or not they're 'extreme'?

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Apparently Geezer doesn't want to discuss the specifics of each site. Too bad.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

RUE

Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:34 PM

And speaking of 'nasty people', it lookks like one of the nastiest is being taken to task:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061114/wl_afp/usgermanyprisoners_0611141
74424

International lawyers file suit against Rumsfeld in Germany

by Aurelia End
Tue Nov 14, 12:52 PM ET

BERLIN (AFP) - An international grouping of lawyers filed a lawsuit calling on German prosecutors to investigate outgoing US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld for allegedly sanctioning torture.

The 220-page suit is being brought on behalf of 11 former Iraqi detainees of the notorious Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad and one Saudi currently held at the US prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

The suit was filed to Germany's federal prosecutor Monika Harms at her offices in the southwestern city of Karlsruhe.

German law allows the pursuit of warcrimes cases regardless of where they originate in the world

SIGNYM

Wednesday, November 15, 2006 2:01 PM

Quote:
... do you really believe that the liberal left hasn't done just as much harm to this country as the conservative right?-Chris M

I was sincere when I asked you for a list of all the harm the 'liberal left' has done. I'm still hoping you reply.-Rue

Me too. Nothing ruins a good discussion like a drive-by comment.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, November 16, 2006 12:42 AM

Sorry Rue, I think this is a divisive thread.

RUE

Thursday, November 16, 2006 9:30 PM

DT, Were you around when Ghoulman was posting? Now THOSE were divisive threads ! Ahhh, those were the days ....

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, November 16, 2006 10:29 PM

Sure, but none of it helps.
My must unite against a common enemy, the alliance. Also, anger never helps. get a puppy or something, and chill. One side is not nastier than the other, there is a ton of nastiness out there. Partisan politics is a bitter pointless power struggle. Don't get caught up in the self-feeding anger. It's damaging. Find something less stressful. Kaneman, I assume you are refering to, is a lying troll., there's not really much point to reading his posts. I've taken to not reading citizen's if it's over two or three lines.

just a spot check, imho

divisive headers

Reps Cheated again
Nasty people
Lieberman is a Republican
Left versus Right
PIRATENEWS' illegal Alien Grandfather
Nathan Fillion's boss murdered by illegal alien
Look, I know it's been overdone - but abortion
Women, minorities, bias and affirmative action
Republicans Harass Millions of Voters

undivisive headers

Are we all imprisoned w/in the USA?
How will our beliefs change in 500 years?
Where are the Libertarians?
TODAY WAS A GOOD DAY - How's about yours?
Net Neutrality
2006 US Midterm Election Predictions
What do YOU want the Dems to do?
And now, NOT in the news today!
Guess the October Surprise

SOUPCATCHER

Thursday, November 16, 2006 10:59 PM

I've got to disagree with the statement that one side is not nastier than the other. I am a self-professed liberal. I can turn on talk radio and hear how liberals are traitors. I can hear radio hosts with millions of listeners fantasize about getting rid of liberals and keeping a few in a zoo as an exhibit. I can go to the bookstore and read titles by prominent rightist pundits saying that liberals are the enemy. Titles that sell millions of copies. There are millions of followers in this country who use the word liberal as an epithet.

One side, the right, makes millions of dollars spewing eliminationist rhetoric about a whole class of people.

There are millions of Americans who think that I, and the millions like me, should be killed simply for what we believe.

And that's not nasty?

KANEMAN

Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:13 PM

"Anyway, so much for reasoned discussion from the right."

Ruse, good to see you still up to your old tricks. Do you really believe there is a difference between the right or left? I am referring to the kool-aid drinking extremists in both parties.

KANEMAN

Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:17 PM

"Kaneman, I assume you are refering to, is a lying troll"

Whats up with the dart toss?

RUE

Tuesday, November 21, 2006 5:07 PM

Speaking of nasty people, this is from the right-wing rag TownHall -

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/KevinMcCullough/2006/11/19/why_is_o
bamas_evil_in_rick_warrens_pulpit

Warren is ready to turn over the spiritual mantle to a man (Obama) who represents the views of Satan at worst or progressive anti-God liberals at best in most of his public positions on the greatest moral tests of our time.

-----------

Now THIS is a prime example of demonizing the opposition - a common tactic of right-wingnuts. In fact I chose this one because it so literally does that.