Is a hawk evil when it kills a rabbit?

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 23:32
VIEWED: 6972
PAGE 1 of 1

CHRISISALL

Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:35 PM

I've been wondering, what's wrong with taking what you want, as long as you don't end up in jail?
Isn't the Bush Administration doing what it can do? If you find a twenty dollar bill on the street, don't you take it? We breed and kill innocent animals for tasty meals, don't we. This is a dog-eat-dog world, and if it can be taken, you do, right? So what if people die in wars, they're gonna die someday anyway, right? Who are we to play God and say the Bush Administration shouldn't be doing...ANYTHING??
If any of us were presidents, how do you know we wouldn't be doing exactly what Cheney suggested we do, too?
Christ would be the first one to say forgive Bush!

Bush's Advocate Chrisisall

CAUSAL

Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:41 PM

Been reading the papers again, Chris?

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

CAUSAL

Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:42 PM

Also, for the record: I'm not a huge fan of W. myself, but this whole "Bush is the anti-Christ" thing is just so ridiculous.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

CITIZEN

Friday, May 12, 2006 12:10 AM

A hawk kills just what it needs to survive. Evil is killing because one gains pleasure out of it, but don't need too in order to survive. If a lion kills a gazelle in order to feed it self and it's pride that is not evil, it is the order to things.

If a lion caught a gazelle and proceeded to torture it and play with it (riping limbs off, that sort of thing) gaining pleasure from the act but with no other tangible gain, and then did not eat the carcass then that is evil.

Of course animals don't really indulge in this kind of behaviour, people do.

Greed is where one takes vastly more than is required to survive. We are all guilty of this, do you need that stereo or that computer to survive? But is it evil? I'd say only if it directly adversly effects a great deal of life, for one's own material gain.

Quote:
If any of us were presidents, how do you know we wouldn't be doing exactly what Cheney suggested we do, too?

Depends I suspect on how you view the actions of the GWB. Is a person evil if they decide it would be fun to shoot another to death? Is a soldier evil for doing the same thing (shooting to death, not doing it for fun)? Are soldiers of Nazi Germany, the Soviet republic or any countless other regimes evil for carrying out acts, if the alternative for them is death? Would you have acted differently? Does this mean we should not punish or condemn these things if they are just Human nature?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

CHRISISALL

Friday, May 12, 2006 12:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Also, for the record: I'm not a huge fan of W. myself, but this whole "Bush is the anti-Christ" thing is just so ridiculous.

I never said he was the anti-Christ, just sayin' his administration is up to no good as far as being nice guys goes. My question is do they have to be nice guys in a corrupt world? Why not partake of the benefits of corruption, if not they, someone will. Wars will be fought, with or without Bush, should we not excuse anything he does as just something someone will do? So he gives his pals jobs, and his other pals contracts. So what? Nobody's arrested him, so it can't be too wrong. Why expect him to be a hero?

Damien Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Friday, May 12, 2006 12:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

If a lion caught a gazelle and proceeded to torture it and play with it (riping limbs off, that sort of thing) gaining pleasure from the act but with no other tangible gain, and then did not eat the carcass then that is evil.

Cats 'torture' mice before killing them.
But then I do believe cats are evil...

Unless it's just their DNA in a super-soldier Chrisisall

KHYRON

Friday, May 12, 2006 12:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Cats 'torture' mice before killing them.
But then I do believe cats are evil...

Cats are cute. Torture is fun. Didn't you see 'War Stories', and how much fun Niska had? A great time had by all...

To the topic at hand, politicians in America are elected by the people (in theory, at least), and are done so to serve the people, not themselves. I know there are a whole bunch of complications to this, but that's the basic principle of this idea called democracy.

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

CITIZEN

Friday, May 12, 2006 12:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

If a lion caught a gazelle and proceeded to torture it and play with it (riping limbs off, that sort of thing) gaining pleasure from the act but with no other tangible gain, and then did not eat the carcass then that is evil.

Cats 'torture' mice before killing them.
But then I do believe cats are evil...

Unless it's just their DNA in a super-soldier Chrisisall

House cats are a special case.

I don't like house cats, I kicked my mothers cat off her lap before I was even born...

Maybe some Human traits have rubbed off on the domesticated kind? Tho they play with mice/birds as part of a self training for hunting, I'm not sure they lob the heads of and stick them on the side of their bed...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

CHRISISALL

Friday, May 12, 2006 12:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:

To the topic at hand, politicians in America are elected by the people (in theory, at least), and are done so to serve the people, not themselves.

In the same way that a certain number of rats is tolerated on a large cargo vessle, isn't it reasonable to expect a certain amount of 'self serving' to be done while having all that power and influence? Wouldn't it be super-human to avoid playing the game, a little (or even a lot)?

Chrisisall (Boy, this is hard...)

CHRISISALL

Friday, May 12, 2006 12:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

I don't like house cats, I kicked my mothers cat off her lap before I was even born...

More we have in common

No Cat Fancy Chrisisall

KHYRON

Friday, May 12, 2006 12:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Of course animals don't really indulge in this kind of behaviour, people do.

I think I saw a documentary film once that had a pair of killer whales playing with a seal by throwing it back and forth between each other until the seal was dead.

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

KHYRON

Friday, May 12, 2006 12:56 AM

How can you people not like cats...

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

KHYRON

Friday, May 12, 2006 1:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
In the same way that a certain number of rats is tolerated on a large cargo vessle, isn't it reasonable to expect a certain amount of 'self serving' to be done while having all that power and influence? Wouldn't it be super-human to avoid playing the game, a little (or even a lot)?

Of course, it shouldn't happen

. But realistically, it probably always will be going on, but not to the extent that this administration is doing it. Sure, if it's a little and nobody finds out I guess it's acceptable (as far as we know for sure, or at least I know for sure, all that Clinton got out of it was a blowjob... oh wait, even that was too much). But what's going on right now is just blatantly out-of-hand...

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

CITIZEN

Friday, May 12, 2006 1:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
I think I saw a documentary film once that had a pair of killer whales playing with a seal by throwing it back and forth between each other until the seal was dead.

Yep there's a few examples, often funnilly enough, when the predator has an extreme advantage over the prey. The biggest difference is people will kill for a hood ornament, the Orca's would've eventually eaten the Seal, it was done for survival.

Quote:
How can you people not like cats...

I can't stand the way they look at you, like your beneth them. I'm above you, better than, top of the food chain see, ignorant bloody moggy.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

RABIT

Friday, May 12, 2006 1:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Cats 'torture' mice before killing them.

I tend to think of what a cat does as practice...

Rabit

TIGER

Friday, May 12, 2006 1:17 AM

Quote:
I think I saw a documentary film once that had a pair of killer whales playing with a seal by throwing it back and forth between each other until the seal was dead.

You did. I saw it too. I've also seen cats (tame and wild) play with caught mice until they died, dogs play with squirrels until they were mortally wounded but not dead, and even once a weasel drag around a live garter snake just to let it go and re-catch it a dozen times.

Higher forms of life tend to enjoy the behaviors that will ensure their survival. We like to eat, have sex, hunt, and even kill.

The difference is that human beings are the only creatures that can see the price of that enjoyment ahead of time and decide if it's worth it in the long run.

Having said that, I don't think Bush enjoys what he's doing. He's just not that smart, terribly advised, and way too stubborn (or 'divinely inspired') to ever admit he screwed up.

RUE

Friday, May 12, 2006 1:22 AM

No.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

RUE

Friday, May 12, 2006 1:30 AM

Now seriously ...

Still no.

Young animals play as practice. Adult dogs play with animals to death - but wolves don't. Adult house cats do the same thing - but not wild cat species. The dividing line is generally rearing young.

Given that, evolution doens't necessarily build-in niceness. Adult male bears kill young cubs. Adult male lions do too. Even some monkeys do that. When you have males not rearing young, there is not a large evolutionary penalty to killing a few offspring of your own kind - if sired by another male.

"Heaven and earth are not humane".

So why do people conceive of fair and unfair, good and evil? It probably has to do with evolution as a social species. Chimps and even monkeys seem to feel a social compact, and reject that which seems unfair, or like cheating. Humans are just another kind of chimp. It's not surprising.

PS I learned a lot about this from SignyM quite a while ago, who brought to me many ideas. Among them: the idea that survival of offspring is the evolutionary driver, that males that contribute to offsrping survival are evenly represented in poulations, and that there are probably ways to mathematically derive what combination of factors will ultimately 'work' (an idea that's newly gained a lot of attention among cutting edge researchers.)

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others. That's another way of saying I depend on people to do my thinking for me.

KHYRON

Friday, May 12, 2006 1:47 AM

I find it a bit annoying that we're looking at the animal kingdom as cues on how we should act as a species and what should come as 'natural' to us. But anyway...

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Young animals play as practice. Adult dogs play with animals to death - but wolves don't. Adult house cats do the same thing - but not wild cat species.

You seem to have missed the example of adult killer whales playing with prey. Aside from that, domestic animals play with their prey because they're well-fed, and wild animals are not well-fed almost all of the time. If you put a wild dog or cat species together with a permanent source of food and some natural species of prey for that predator to keep it comapany, I'm pretty certain that at some stage the predator will start playing with the "prey" and that at some stage this playing becomes lethal.

As to the question of why we know what is fair and unfair, good and evil, trained animals also know what is "right" and "wrong". Just in the case of dogs that training comes from humans - in chimps and humans, that training comes from members of the group (society, in the case of present-day humans). I think there's possibly some inherent sense of morals, but not to the extent that we perceive them later on in life.

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

TIGER

Friday, May 12, 2006 1:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
...Young animals play as practice. Adult dogs play with animals to death - but wolves don't. Adult house cats do the same thing - but not wild cat species...

I don't know where you got that idea, but it's definitely wrong. Tame animals, wild animals, feral animals, they all have the same instincts and the same play desires. Yes, the young play more than adults - like another poster said, it's practice - and tame animals probably play more than wild ones just because they have more time.

And I just realized that there's absolutely no point to this thread...

KHYRON

Friday, May 12, 2006 1:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
And I just realized that there's absolutely no point to this thread...

My bet is that this will become a discussion on the origin and nature of morals and ethics. Followed by some more anti-Bush ranting...

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

RUE

Friday, May 12, 2006 2:09 AM

Cats are taught what is prey and what is not by the mother. She regurgitates dead animals, brings in dead animals, then half-dead ones to teach her young. Wolves hunt socially in packs and learn to hunt socially. Cats and dogs have a 'chase' instinct. An animal which is not hunting for food b/c it wasn't taught will chase and bite ('play' or 'torture'), not ncessarily hunt.

I didn't see the tape of killer whales (Orcas, which are a form of dolphin) 'playing' with their prey. I don't know if they then ate it. If they it, it would make it 'hunting', not 'playing'. Orcas feed opportunistically. Seal pups are one of the Orca's food sources as are whales (Orca groups have been seen flensing whales before eating them), squid, fish, and even penguins and otters.

Nature is a good teacher. It teaches us that there is no one way to survive, as a species. You can live fast and make lots of babies, or eat almost anything, or live where nothing else can live, or have a few babies and give lots of care, ... whatever works.

'Survival of the fittest' as the paradigm of nature - which means to most people the biggest, strongest, baddest, most ruthless - is a bunch of bull cr*p.

What nature teaches us is that as social species with helpless young, humans depend on cooperation, and that means workable TRUST.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

RUE

Friday, May 12, 2006 2:12 AM

Khyron

Quote:
My bet is that this will become a discussion on the origin and nature of morals and ethics. Followed by some more anti-Bush ranting.

Yes, it would be awful if people actually addressed the topic of the thread - what does 'evil' mean?

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

RUE

Friday, May 12, 2006 2:17 AM

Tiger,
For someone with a predator's moniker, you sure don't know much about real predators.

And I just realized that there's absolutely no point to this thread...

Is that because a discussion of good and evil bores you? Maybe that says a lot about you.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

KHYRON

Friday, May 12, 2006 2:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Quote:
My bet is that this will become a discussion on the origin and nature of morals and ethics. Followed by some more anti-Bush ranting.
Yes, it would be awful if people actually addressed the topic of the thread - what does 'evil' mean?

Actually, only the second sentence of mine was supposed to be sarcastic. I don't particularly mind it if it's a discussion on morals and ethics (as you say, it's the topic of the thread).

I didn't really disagree with any particular point in your previous post, but since you didn't see the orca thing yet I went and looked for it. I couldn't find the actual video, but something that has some snippets from it:

And this is a little bit off-topic, but fascinating nonetheless:

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

TIGER

Friday, May 12, 2006 2:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Tiger,
For someone with a predator's moniker, you sure don't know much about real predators.

Yeah, you're right. I guess those 5 years in 6 different nature preserves working with wolves, bobcats, weasels, and various birds of prey and prey animals, both injured and healthy, didn't teach me anything. ALL predators will play deadly games with prey animals given the, not too rare, correct conditions.

Quote:
Is that because a discussion of good and evil bores you? Maybe that says a lot about you.

A discussion of good and evil isn't boring. But this thread has so far been pointless and directionless, bouncing around topics like a Mexican jumping bean.

You want to talk about good and evil? Let's go. But I've already found my own answers to most of those questions.

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, May 12, 2006 2:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Also, for the record: I'm not a huge fan of W. myself, but this whole "Bush is the anti-Christ" thing is just so ridiculous.

I never said he was the anti-Christ, just sayin' his administration is up to no good as far as being nice guys goes. My question is do they have to be nice guys in a corrupt world? Why not partake of the benefits of corruption, if not they, someone will. Wars will be fought, with or without Bush, should we not excuse anything he does as just something someone will do? So he gives his pals jobs, and his other pals contracts. So what? Nobody's arrested him, so it can't be too wrong. Why expect him to be a hero?

Damien Chrisisall

I,m thinking this message is from the anti-chris

" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html

ANTHONYT

Friday, May 12, 2006 2:58 AM

"I didn't see the tape of killer whales (Orcas, which are a form of dolphin) 'playing' with their prey. I don't know if they then ate it. If they it, it would make it 'hunting', not 'playing'. Orcas feed opportunistically. Seal pups are one of the Orca's food sources as are whales (Orca groups have been seen flensing whales before eating them), squid, fish, and even penguins and otters."

Tossing a seal back and forth like a volleyball for several minutes isn't hunting. I don't think it's practice either. Not unless there's a species of flying seal I don't know about, forcing Orca to learn how to catch airborne seals. It's not hunting or practice by any stretch of the imagination. Not even if you eat the seal afterwards.

It IS fun, though. Or at least, it is if you like volleyball.

I would wager to guess that a killer whale (and maybe even a cat or dog) is intelligent enough to know that wounding a thing hurts it.

What I do not believe is that a whale or cat or dog has any reason to care. So WHAT if the seal or mouse or whatever gets hurt? It's fun to play with, and it's food. I believe that's as far as animal reasoning goes.

Is that evil? I don't think so. It's not like the animal is thinking, "Aha! I shall relish in this creature's pain!"

Rather, it's thinking of having fun. Playing with the mouse or throwing the seal is fun. That's all that is in the animal's brain.

I think that's what makes humans the 'superior' life form. We can reason past all sorts of things, and wrap our brains around concepts. We are so complex that we can reason ourselves into unreasonableness. We can twist ourselves. We're the invention that re-invents itself. Not always for the better.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

KHYRON

Friday, May 12, 2006 3:11 AM

Yep, have to agree with AnthonyT on this one. I thought this was nice:

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
We are so complex that we can reason ourselves into unreasonableness. We can twist ourselves. We're the invention that re-invents itself. Not always for the better.

Although I think if we re-invent ourselves in the sense of changing human "characteristics", it's only as a society, the way one convention that was common becomes unacceptable in society a few generations afterwards. We as a species don't change, but the way we interact does.

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

PDCHARLES

Friday, May 12, 2006 3:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Is that evil? I don't think so. It's not like the animal is thinking, "Aha! I shall relish in this creature's pain!"

hilarious!

My cat, a female, has so far delivered three different species to my door this spring. Won't go into any details but, one is cute and fuzzy! She might be a felon.

I think it is more "get, while the gettin's good" mentality. She is instinctively providing for the family.

The evil is that there is a complete lack of political, philosophical, economical and technological innovation going on here and that scares me. Is that Dick's fault, maybe...

It is a dog-eat-dog world, best be ready for it... kinda like having fun with your prey....

...and cats ARE cool!!!!

KHYRON

Friday, May 12, 2006 3:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pdcharles:
She is instinctively providing for the family.

Not sure if what I'm about to say is true, but I read somewhere that if a cat starts delivering its hunting victims, it considers that to be its contribution to the household. So if one doesn't want a cat to keep doing it, one obviously shouldn't reward it (because then it'll just keep doing it), but one shouldn't be angry with it either. If one is angry with it, the cat will think that the contribution wasn't good enough and this will result in it going out hunting more often and always delivering its prey. If one doesn't react to the cat bringing in the prey in any strong way, the cat will be content with its contribution and not feel the need to go hunting again any time soon.

EDIT: Sorry, way off topic, but I have a soft spot for cats.

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

RIVER6213

Friday, May 12, 2006 4:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I've been wondering, what's wrong with taking what you want, as long as you don't end up in jail?
Isn't the Bush Administration doing what it can do? If you find a twenty dollar bill on the street, don't you take it? We breed and kill innocent animals for tasty meals, don't we. This is a dog-eat-dog world, and if it can be taken, you do, right? So what if people die in wars, they're gonna die someday anyway, right? Who are we to play God and say the Bush Administration shouldn't be doing...ANYTHING??
If any of us were presidents, how do you know we wouldn't be doing exactly what Cheney suggested we do, too?
Christ would be the first one to say forgive Bush!

Bush's Advocate Chrisisall

You are kidding...right?

River

SASSALICIOUS

Friday, May 12, 2006 5:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Of course animals don't really indulge in this kind of behaviour, people do.

I think I saw a documentary film once that had a pair of killer whales playing with a seal by throwing it back and forth between each other until the seal was dead.

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

I saw the same video on Discovery Channel!

CITIZEN

Friday, May 12, 2006 7:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Tossing a seal back and forth like a volleyball for several minutes isn't hunting. I don't think it's practice either. Not unless there's a species of flying seal I don't know about, forcing Orca to learn how to catch airborne seals. It's not hunting or practice by any stretch of the imagination. Not even if you eat the seal afterwards.

It IS fun, though. Or at least, it is if you like volleyball.

A lone Orca will toss Seals into the air in order to break its neck to kill it. Two Orcas will bounce the Seal between them in order to break its neck.

They do it to kill the Seal and yes they also do it for practice. An Orca hunts by beaching it self and catching a Seal in one motion. This takes a lot of coordination and judgement, coordination and judgement improved by bouncing those Seals around.

Quote:
I think that's what makes humans the 'superior' life form. We can reason past all sorts of things, and wrap our brains around concepts. We are so complex that we can reason ourselves into unreasonableness. We can twist ourselves. We're the invention that re-invents itself. Not always for the better.

Humans aren't the only animals that show these traits. Dolphins for instance are highly intelligent, in fact I've heard it said that if they didn't live in a more 'stable' environment like the Sea and if they had opposable thumbs there would be Dolphin cities.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

AURAPTOR

Friday, May 12, 2006 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I've been wondering, what's wrong with taking what you want, as long as you don't end up in jail?
Isn't the Bush Administration doing what it can do? If you find a twenty dollar bill on the street, don't you take it? We breed and kill innocent animals for tasty meals, don't we. This is a dog-eat-dog world, and if it can be taken, you do, right? So what if people die in wars, they're gonna die someday anyway, right? Who are we to play God and say the Bush Administration shouldn't be doing...ANYTHING??
If any of us were presidents, how do you know we wouldn't be doing exactly what Cheney suggested we do, too?
Christ would be the first one to say forgive Bush!

Bush's Advocate Chrisisall

I thought this was about hawks and bunnies.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CHRISISALL

Friday, May 12, 2006 2:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
You are kidding...right?

Just trying to honestly explore why some dismiss Bush's actions as non-criminal.
Trying to get into that head was surely difficult, but I did manage to think that way, if only for a few posts. It necessitated a focus on the overall picture, like a kid re-arranging an ant farm, and unintentionally squashing 10% of his ants in the process. Oh well, that's the price of progress.

I found it a cold place to try to be in.

But that's just me Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Friday, May 12, 2006 2:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Yep, have to agree with AnthonyT on this one. I thought this was nice:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
We are so complex that we can reason ourselves into unreasonableness. We can twist ourselves. We're the invention that re-invents itself. Not always for the better.

Although I think if we re-invent ourselves in the sense of changing human "characteristics", it's only as a society, the way one convention that was common becomes unacceptable in society a few generations afterwards. We as a species don't change, but the way we interact does.

This here was the point of this thread, I think.

Sponge-like Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Friday, May 12, 2006 2:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

I,m thinking this message is from the anti-chris

After I posted, I did notice this goatee on my face, and an agonizer on my belt...

Chrisisall

ANTHONYT

Friday, May 12, 2006 4:01 PM

"A lone Orca will toss Seals into the air in order to break its neck to kill it. Two Orcas will bounce the Seal between them in order to break its neck.

They do it to kill the Seal and yes they also do it for practice. An Orca hunts by beaching it self and catching a Seal in one motion. This takes a lot of coordination and judgement, coordination and judgement improved by bouncing those Seals around."

Well hell, Citizen. You animal apologist. I guess animals just can't have fun. Everything they do is exclusively for a survival or training purpose.

"I think that's what makes humans the 'superior' life form. We can reason past all sorts of things, and wrap our brains around concepts. We are so complex that we can reason ourselves into unreasonableness. We can twist ourselves. We're the invention that re-invents itself. Not always for the better."

"Humans aren't the only animals that show these traits. Dolphins for instance are highly intelligent, in fact I've heard it said that if they didn't live in a more 'stable' environment like the Sea and if they had opposable thumbs there would be Dolphin cities."

Wait a minute, Citizen. You telling me that on the one hand, an animal can't think hard enough to have fun, but on the other hand, they can reason themselves into unreasonableness?

Wicked logic.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

CITIZEN

Friday, May 12, 2006 4:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Well hell, Citizen. You animal apologist. I guess animals just can't have fun. Everything they do is exclusively for a survival or training purpose.

Well if that's your interpretation of what I said, as wrong and as simplistic as it may be, that's your interpretation.

Quote:
Wait a minute, Citizen. You telling me that on the one hand, an animal can't think hard enough to have fun, but on the other hand, they can reason themselves into unreasonableness?

Wicked logic.

You spin me right round Anthony right round...

I didn't say any of that. You made sweeping statements that were wrong.

You said Orcas act the way they do merely because they're playing volleyball with a Seal merely to have fun, like there’s no reason behind the act, from a survival point of view. That is wrong.

You said Humans are the only species to exhibit higher reasoning and culture, which is also wrong. I never said Orcas don't enjoy hunting, I said they do it too survive.

People enjoy hunting and enjoy going on safari, but these are not in the vast majority of cases required for our survival. We do them solely for enjoyment, the killer whale does not. When you find an example of an animal killing merely to kill, let me know, because seriously, you won't.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

ANTHONYT

Friday, May 12, 2006 5:02 PM

Citizen,

My point (which you missed) is that only humans have the reasoning capacity to wrap their brains around the concepts necessary to make an 'evil' decision. Only we can reason so thoroughly as to twist our own minds. We are the only creatures that build philosophies. We re-invent ourselves, and not only for the better.

My other point (which you now seem to agree with) Is that the Orca (and the cat, for that matter) is just having fun with the darn prey, and that all that is in his mind is "whee! prey tossing!" Because I'm pretty sure he could eat the thing just fine as-is.

I never suggested animals kill just to kill. But when you spend 10 minutes playing volleyball and 10 seconds eating, I think you're having a good time.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

CITIZEN

Friday, May 12, 2006 5:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
My point (which you missed) is that only humans have the reasoning capacity to wrap their brains around the concepts necessary to make an 'evil' decision. Only we can reason so thoroughly as to twist our own minds. We are the only creatures that build philosophies. We re-invent ourselves, and not only for the better.

No, I got it, your just wrong. Many animals show higher reasoning, we just do more of it. They probably don't call it evil, they don't speak english, no wait, some do.

Quote:
My other point (which you now seem to agree with) Is that the Orca (and the cat, for that matter) is just having fun with the darn prey, and that all that is in his mind is "whee! prey tossing!" Because I'm pretty sure he could eat the thing just fine as-is.

And the way you phrased it, and are still phrasing it, is that Orcas do it solely for fun, which isn't the case.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

ANTHONYT

Friday, May 12, 2006 6:37 PM

Citizen educates Anthony

Citizen and Anthony sit in a park. In the fields of the park, two dogs are chasing each other. Dog A chases dog B. Then dog B chases dog A. Anthony smirks, points, and remarks, "Look at those dogs playing."

Citizen shakes his head. "They're not playing."

Anthony looks surprised, "They're not?"

Citizen turns his sage eyes on Anthony. "No. They're practicing survival skills. Hunting and evading. Plus, this activity helps to establish pecking order, as the stronger, more agile, and more cunning members of the pack are established."

Anthony frowns, "It sure looks like they're having fun."

Citizen shrugs, "I'm sure they're having fun while practicing their survival skills. But that's incidental."

Anthony nods, frowning. "I see."

The next day Anthony is sitting on the porch of his home, and his son and his niece are running around the front yard, playing a game of tag. Storm clouds gather, and Anthony decides it's time to pack it in.

"Charlie, Alyssa, quit practicing your survival skills and establishing your pecking order, and get inside the house!"

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

CHRISISALL

Friday, May 12, 2006 6:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

"Charlie, Alyssa, quit practicing your survival skills and establishing your pecking order, and get inside the house!"

ROTF, That's funny.

Chrisisall, hunt and peck

ANTHONYT

Friday, May 12, 2006 6:46 PM

You're all right, Citizen.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

CITIZEN

Friday, May 12, 2006 6:48 PM

Pretty much. A lot of children’s play is very much practice and a learning experience for vital Human survival skills.

Are you going to compare children playing to someone going out to kill animals to hang the head on their wall and throw the rest of the carcass away now?

I didn't say they weren't 'playing' nor having fun, I said it was part of their survival strategy, you were suggesting they were doing it merely for fun.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

CITIZEN

Friday, May 12, 2006 6:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
You're all right, Citizen.

You're not so bad yourself

.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

ANTHONYT

Friday, May 12, 2006 7:03 PM

"Are you going to compare children playing to someone going out to kill animals to hang the head on their wall and throw the rest of the carcass away now?"

There's three kinds of hunters.

There's the kind that enjoy hunting and killing animals, but also makes use of their resources so that there's no waste.

Then there's the kind who enjoy hunting and killing animals, but completely wastes their resources.

A Native tribesman is a third kind of hunter, the kind that needs the resources and respects the animal thoroughly. (But may incidentally get some enjoyment out of hunting and killing the animal.)

I hadn't thought about it, but I suppose all of these hunters are practicing survival skills. The degree of waste and the primary motivation varies.

"I didn't say they weren't 'playing' nor having fun, I said it was part of their survival strategy, you were suggesting they were doing it merely for fun."

Well, this is where you and I will have to agree to disagree. And that's fine. It'd be boring if we had the same opinions all the time.

I think they were doing it for fun, and that the survival skills thing was a bonus.

You think they were doing it for survival, and the fun thing is a bonus.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

RUE

Friday, May 12, 2006 7:34 PM

Tiger,

Quote:
guess those 5 years in 6 different nature preserves working with wolves, bobcats, weasels, and various birds of prey and prey animals, both injured and healthy, didn't teach me anything.

Interesting. What was your job?

Quote:
But this thread has so far been pointless and directionless ...

Seems pretty on target to me.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

RUE

Friday, May 12, 2006 8:33 PM

AnthonyT

Quote:
Tossing a seal back and forth like a volleyball for several minutes isn't hunting. I would wager to guess that a killer whale ... is intelligent enough ...

Orcas sometimes hunt socially, and sometimes individually. They also have complex social structures and interactions. Since we don't know their langauge, can't 'read' their faces (they are inscrutable), and don't know a lot about what they do in groups, interpreting what they were doing would be only a guess. Thinking of them as if they were people may or may not be reasonable. I've seen (in person) dolphins and belugas do some very strange things that were completely, totally mysterious. No one could even interpret them generically as either friendly or unfriendly. While you know something is going on in their minds, you can't necessarily figure it out.

Quote:
I would wager to guess that ... maybe even a cat or dog is intelligent enough to know that wounding a thing hurts it. What I do not believe is that a ... cat or dog has any reason to care.

I separated out cats and dogs from whales b/c of the intelligence factor. Cats are easier to read than whales, but not as easy as dogs. Cats seem to have blind spots in their interpretation of the world. They 'get' what hands are, but not feet, hooves, legs or wheels. That's why they trip old ladies, climb up legs like they do tree trunks, get trampled by horses, and are run over by cars. While they learn by watching (unlike rats) and would therefore seem to have some understanding of another's behavior, they never 'get' mirrors (unlike whales and great apes). They have behaviors that are tender (mom cats) and 'violent' (hunting). I don't believe I could interpret what a cat 'knows' or 'thinks' as it hunts or plays. Dogs are physically easier to read than whales, and unlike cats are social and therefore have a large expressive repetoire. As social and expressive as dogs are, and despite the fact that they learn by observation, they also never 'get' mirrors. That is seen as a indication of their inability to conceptualized 'self' and 'other'. That has been posited as the minimum needed for empathy. So I'm not sure I could say dogs know what it means to hurt something else, but that they just don't care.

Quote:
We can reason past all sorts of things, and wrap our brains around concepts.

Many cetaceans and apes 'get' mirrors, including humans.

Quote:
We are so complex that we can reason ourselves into unreasonableness. ... We're the invention that re-invents itself.

That might be the function of language and being able to put together concepts that haven't been experienced together. Humans are neurologically flexible, experience moderates what you will be. And humans are self-directing, which means they can experience their ideas.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

ANTHONYT

Friday, May 12, 2006 9:29 PM

"humans are self-directing, which means they can experience their ideas."

Is that, then, the critical dividing factor? The power of imagination?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

ANTHONYT

Friday, May 12, 2006 9:37 PM

"So I'm not sure I could say dogs know what it means to hurt something else, but that they just don't care."

Hmm... It might be my imagination (the tendency to personify things is strong in this one) but I've always felt that my dogs and cats, at various times, have understood when I was ill or wounded. I have perceived that they came to me in an attempt to comfort me.

This gave me the feeling (perhaps erroneously) that they could perceive discomfort and displeasure in others. I assumed they tried to comfort me because I was 'part of the pack' so to speak. I also assumed that prey and intruding animals were food, definitely not 'part of the pack' and thus their feelings about being rended, torn, or broken were irrelevant.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

RUE

Friday, May 12, 2006 9:45 PM

I think some animals have imagination or they wouldn't solve problems like how to get a seal off the middle of an ice floe (Orca) or a termite out of a mound (Pan sp) or a crab from behind a rock (Octopus sp).

I've heard (in extended discussion) that language can objectify experience and that may be why people can be self directing. Thats' why I don't want to say too much about cetaceans. They obviously have self awareness and language. And while they can understand us in a crude way, we can't understand them.

I also wanted to say there may be alien 'intelligences'. Octopuses, parrots, dolphins and whales may be beyond our understanding.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

RUE

Friday, May 12, 2006 10:02 PM

We must have cross-posted. It's an interesting question and I'd like to discuss it at length, but I have a boatload of work to finish. I'll try and get back some time next week.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

HKCAVALIER

Friday, May 12, 2006 10:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I've been wondering, what's wrong with taking what you want, as long as you don't end up in jail?
Isn't the Bush Administration doing what it can do? If you find a twenty dollar bill on the street, don't you take it? We breed and kill innocent animals for tasty meals, don't we. This is a dog-eat-dog world, and if it can be taken, you do, right? So what if people die in wars, they're gonna die someday anyway, right? Who are we to play God and say the Bush Administration shouldn't be doing...ANYTHING??

Heya, Chris!

*Sigh* The world right now is in a dark place, darkest place I've seen it in this life time. Think back to '99, man, were you thinking like this at all? Did you feel for five seconds the need to think like this back then?

'Course not, it's crazy talk. What makes it crazy? You're a spiritual being, Chris. This is poisonous materialistic reductionism, that's all.

Asking, thanking and saying we're sorry. That's what humans can do. Yay us! And since we can do these things, since we are the only species we know for sure can do these things, it's kinda our job as the asking, thanking, apologizing animal to do these things.

If we have a capacity to see the suffering in a seal cub, we shouldn't oughta make 'em suffer needlessly. If there is some real need to go ahead and make 'em suffer anyway, then we do like the Inuit do and ask permission and thank the animal for its sacrifice. This kinda behavior, though utterly silly and whimsical to the typical westernized mind, is healthy and gives you a sense of belonging and peace. It extends your life and is good for the species.

Evil is largely an "inside job." It's really a matter of awakening. If you know better, you need to do better. Your health, if nothing else, demands it. If ya don't know better--and I mean really don't--then, y'know, I hope someday you figure it out. ('Course I know you do Chris, I'm just talking in general.)

Quote:
If any of us were presidents, how do you know we wouldn't be doing exactly what Cheney suggested we do, too?

Christ would be the first one to say forgive Bush!

Forgiveness is, of course, the crowning achievement of human consciousness. Forgiving is what frees you to deal with the evil in your own self, and let other folks deal with theirs.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

CITIZEN

Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rue:
That might be the function of language and being able to put together concepts that haven't been experienced together. Humans are neurologically flexible, experience moderates what you will be. And humans are self-directing, which means they can experience their ideas.

Dolphins and Apes have learnt rudimentary English, since they can't vocalise the sounds the interaction is pictorial based, but I believe Dolphins have shown communication abilities on the level of a toddler.

I'd also point out that Dolphins (common bottled nose I think) have rescued Humans from life threatening situations, so can obviously emphasis and probably 'get in the mind of' another species.

As far as Alien intelligence I don't think Dolphins are different enough. Looking into the eyes of a Dolphin I can get inflections from them, the same as most animals (though I can do it with snakes to a degree to, most people seem to be unable to read them, maybe I'm weird?) but octopuses and other cephalopods just seem completely alien.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

RUE

Saturday, May 13, 2006 8:21 AM

I once had a beluga whale come upright out of the water about 10' (about 3m) from me and just stare at me for roughly 10 minutes. Then it turned its big head and stared at me with one eye for a few minutes. Then it turned its big head and stared at me with the other eye for a few minutes. Then it turned its big head and went back to staring at me with both eyes. It didn't stop till I left.

Two thoughts went through my head - it's irresistably big, and, I have no idea what it's thinking. What would cause it to pay such close attention?

I've also seen dolphins do some weird stuff for which I've found no explanation.

Dolphins 'get' mirrors. They can be 'trained' - in other words they understand us. As an experiment, there were two dolphins who were rewarded every time they did something different from what they did before, if they did it in tandem. They flawlessly execute complicated tandem rountines without practice. They obviously communicate with each other ahead of time to coordinate what they will do. They understand us. They understand each other. We just don't understand them. Which is the smarter species?

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

CITIZEN

Saturday, May 13, 2006 9:56 AM

We build cities, cars, travel into space, have jobs fight wars.

All they do is muck around in the Oceans and (you'll like this bit Anthony ) have fun.

It's them, obviously.

EDIT:

Quote:
Two thoughts went through my head - it's irresistably big, and, I have no idea what it's thinking. What would cause it to pay such close attention?

Curiosity?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, May 13, 2006 1:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

*Sigh* The world right now is in a dark place, darkest place I've seen it in this life time. Think back to '99, man, were you thinking like this at all? Did you feel for five seconds the need to think like this back then?

Back in the eighties and early ninties I had a job delivering and picking up tapes and computer componants in NY, and the two most interesting stops were the UN building, and the Twin Towers. Pretty low security, as Bond flicks go, I always felt like, "They hardly looked at my badge...".
After the first time the Trade Center got that car-bomb, security was tightened, and they really read my badge, and made me sign, etc. It was nice to see a little more security, but it gave me a hint where we were going- I knew something more was coming, and my wife dreamed about needing to live away from NY, near a lake. We moved to MA one week before 911, and when it happened, I foresaw most of what's going on now.
And like River said, it's going to get worse.

I grew up during the worst of the Vietnam War, looks like my son will be growing up during the worst of the Middle Eastern Conflict.

Nice to hear from ya, HK.
It can't be dark all the time.

Chrisisall

KAIN

Saturday, May 13, 2006 5:52 PM

Is Jason evil for killin' teenagers who are doin' it in the woods?

Kain

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Tuesday, May 16, 2006 4:29 PM

Um cause if I WAS President, I would have been smart enough to NOT pick Cheney.

Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should. The most important pre-requisite in being the President is Honor,Integrity - we haven't had a lot of that. I don't mean does he cheat on his wife - I mean does he say what he means and stick to it. Does he take responsibility or pass the buck. If you are going to F8ck up - then at least embrace it - admit it - take responsibility, fix it and move on.

Bush is incapable of doing this. He has no honor. He has no integrity and therefore should get no respect.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:39 PM

That's pretty much my view, I was just exploring other perspectives...

Balancing Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kain:
Is Jason evil for killin' teenagers who are doin' it in the woods?

Yes. Because that's what the woods are for.
Ever been camping with your sweetie?
Oh, see, then you know.

Nature boy Chrisisall

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:43 PM

thats because chrisISall!

KAIN

Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:53 PM

You can't stop the signal and you can't stop JASON!!!!!!

Kain

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
thats because chrisISall!

Because I've done it in the woods?

Chrisisall

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:58 PM

Well yeah and because you have the same view.

PIRATEJENNY

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 11:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Also, for the record: I'm not a huge fan of W. myself, but this whole "Bush is the anti-Christ" thing is just so ridiculous.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

lets see, actually Bush being the anti-Christ is not farfetched him and his whole family and this administration is pretty evil.

I'll say it loud and proud because its the truth, and when it comes to the truth I'm no yellow belly coward I will speak up!!! although I really could care two figs for Jesus Christ, although he was a man with a good message.