Is a hawk evil when it kills a rabbit?
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 23:32
VIEWED: 6972
PAGE 5 of 7
Citizen,
My point (which you missed) is that only humans have the reasoning capacity to wrap their brains around the concepts necessary to make an 'evil' decision. Only we can reason so thoroughly as to twist our own minds. We are the only creatures that build philosophies. We re-invent ourselves, and not only for the better.
My other point (which you now seem to agree with) Is that the Orca (and the cat, for that matter) is just having fun with the darn prey, and that all that is in his mind is "whee! prey tossing!" Because I'm pretty sure he could eat the thing just fine as-is.
I never suggested animals kill just to kill. But when you spend 10 minutes playing volleyball and 10 seconds eating, I think you're having a good time.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
My point (which you missed) is that only humans have the reasoning capacity to wrap their brains around the concepts necessary to make an 'evil' decision. Only we can reason so thoroughly as to twist our own minds. We are the only creatures that build philosophies. We re-invent ourselves, and not only for the better.
No, I got it, your just wrong. Many animals show higher reasoning, we just do more of it. They probably don't call it evil, they don't speak english, no wait, some do.
Quote:
My other point (which you now seem to agree with) Is that the Orca (and the cat, for that matter) is just having fun with the darn prey, and that all that is in his mind is "whee! prey tossing!" Because I'm pretty sure he could eat the thing just fine as-is.
And the way you phrased it, and are still phrasing it, is that Orcas do it solely for fun, which isn't the case.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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Citizen educates Anthony
Citizen and Anthony sit in a park. In the fields of the park, two dogs are chasing each other. Dog A chases dog B. Then dog B chases dog A. Anthony smirks, points, and remarks, "Look at those dogs playing."
Citizen shakes his head. "They're not playing."
Anthony looks surprised, "They're not?"
Citizen turns his sage eyes on Anthony. "No. They're practicing survival skills. Hunting and evading. Plus, this activity helps to establish pecking order, as the stronger, more agile, and more cunning members of the pack are established."
Anthony frowns, "It sure looks like they're having fun."
Citizen shrugs, "I'm sure they're having fun while practicing their survival skills. But that's incidental."
Anthony nods, frowning. "I see."
The next day Anthony is sitting on the porch of his home, and his son and his niece are running around the front yard, playing a game of tag. Storm clouds gather, and Anthony decides it's time to pack it in.
"Charlie, Alyssa, quit practicing your survival skills and establishing your pecking order, and get inside the house!"
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:ROTF, That's funny.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Charlie, Alyssa, quit practicing your survival skills and establishing your pecking order, and get inside the house!"
Chrisisall, hunt and peck
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You're all right, Citizen.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Pretty much. A lot of children’s play is very much practice and a learning experience for vital Human survival skills.
Are you going to compare children playing to someone going out to kill animals to hang the head on their wall and throw the rest of the carcass away now?
I didn't say they weren't 'playing' nor having fun, I said it was part of their survival strategy, you were suggesting they were doing it merely for fun.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
You're all right, Citizen.
You're not so bad yourself
.More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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"Are you going to compare children playing to someone going out to kill animals to hang the head on their wall and throw the rest of the carcass away now?"
There's three kinds of hunters.
There's the kind that enjoy hunting and killing animals, but also makes use of their resources so that there's no waste.
Then there's the kind who enjoy hunting and killing animals, but completely wastes their resources.
A Native tribesman is a third kind of hunter, the kind that needs the resources and respects the animal thoroughly. (But may incidentally get some enjoyment out of hunting and killing the animal.)
I hadn't thought about it, but I suppose all of these hunters are practicing survival skills. The degree of waste and the primary motivation varies.
"I didn't say they weren't 'playing' nor having fun, I said it was part of their survival strategy, you were suggesting they were doing it merely for fun."
Well, this is where you and I will have to agree to disagree. And that's fine. It'd be boring if we had the same opinions all the time.
I think they were doing it for fun, and that the survival skills thing was a bonus.
You think they were doing it for survival, and the fun thing is a bonus.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Tiger,
Quote:Interesting. What was your job?
guess those 5 years in 6 different nature preserves working with wolves, bobcats, weasels, and various birds of prey and prey animals, both injured and healthy, didn't teach me anything.
Quote:Seems pretty on target to me.
But this thread has so far been pointless and directionless ...
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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AnthonyT
Quote:Orcas sometimes hunt socially, and sometimes individually. They also have complex social structures and interactions. Since we don't know their langauge, can't 'read' their faces (they are inscrutable), and don't know a lot about what they do in groups, interpreting what they were doing would be only a guess. Thinking of them as if they were people may or may not be reasonable. I've seen (in person) dolphins and belugas do some very strange things that were completely, totally mysterious. No one could even interpret them generically as either friendly or unfriendly. While you know something is going on in their minds, you can't necessarily figure it out.
Tossing a seal back and forth like a volleyball for several minutes isn't hunting. I would wager to guess that a killer whale ... is intelligent enough ...
Quote:I separated out cats and dogs from whales b/c of the intelligence factor. Cats are easier to read than whales, but not as easy as dogs. Cats seem to have blind spots in their interpretation of the world. They 'get' what hands are, but not feet, hooves, legs or wheels. That's why they trip old ladies, climb up legs like they do tree trunks, get trampled by horses, and are run over by cars. While they learn by watching (unlike rats) and would therefore seem to have some understanding of another's behavior, they never 'get' mirrors (unlike whales and great apes). They have behaviors that are tender (mom cats) and 'violent' (hunting). I don't believe I could interpret what a cat 'knows' or 'thinks' as it hunts or plays. Dogs are physically easier to read than whales, and unlike cats are social and therefore have a large expressive repetoire. As social and expressive as dogs are, and despite the fact that they learn by observation, they also never 'get' mirrors. That is seen as a indication of their inability to conceptualized 'self' and 'other'. That has been posited as the minimum needed for empathy. So I'm not sure I could say dogs know what it means to hurt something else, but that they just don't care.
I would wager to guess that ... maybe even a cat or dog is intelligent enough to know that wounding a thing hurts it. What I do not believe is that a ... cat or dog has any reason to care.
Quote:Many cetaceans and apes 'get' mirrors, including humans.
We can reason past all sorts of things, and wrap our brains around concepts.
Quote:That might be the function of language and being able to put together concepts that haven't been experienced together. Humans are neurologically flexible, experience moderates what you will be. And humans are self-directing, which means they can experience their ideas.
We are so complex that we can reason ourselves into unreasonableness. ... We're the invention that re-invents itself.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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