South Ossetia: Defense against ethnic cleansing, or invasion? (Turns out, Georgia fired missiles first. it was self defense)
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, August 23, 2026 15:28
VIEWED: 18520
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Meh, I said suspicions, and that is what I meant - unlike wingnuts of any stripe, I never get the two confused.
To date, I've not really seen enough evidence to say this set of events was helped along by anyone, but it would explain the rather bizarre and coincidental timing, is all.
If the Georgians have any sense at all they won't try to pull off a toe to toe stand hoping the rest of the world will bail them out, the rest of the world is rather good at not keeping promises like that, explicit or implied - they'd be better off sucking them in and bleeding them white like the Mujas did in Afghanistan.
Any way you slice it though, this is gonna be ugly, sure.
And to be perhaps a bit crass, it ain't OUR fekkin problem, nor should we waste our resources on it, we're stretched thin enough as it is trying to play global dominion when we got a shitload of problems at home needing to be addressed.
We needs be solving OUR problems before worrying about anyone elses, dammit.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And to be perhaps a bit crass, it ain't OUR fekkin problem
Yeah, but are we downwind?
Radsisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Meh, I said suspicions, and that is what I meant - unlike wingnuts of any stripe, I never get the two confused.
To date, I've not really seen enough evidence to say this set of events was helped along by anyone, but it would explain the rather bizarre and coincidental timing, is all.
If the Georgians have any sense at all they won't try to pull off a toe to toe stand hoping the rest of the world will bail them out, the rest of the world is rather good at not keeping promises like that, explicit or implied - they'd be better off sucking them in and bleeding them white like the Mujas did in Afghanistan.
Any way you slice it though, this is gonna be ugly, sure.
And to be perhaps a bit crass, it ain't OUR fekkin problem, nor should we waste our resources on it, we're stretched thin enough as it is trying to play global dominion when we got a shitload of problems at home needing to be addressed.
We needs be solving OUR problems before worrying about anyone elses, dammit.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
Which adds to the "coincidental" timing, don't you think? Russia did state quite clearly that if we insisted on putting our missile defense system in the Czech Republic, they'd have no alternative but a military one - they just didn't happen to say WHERE that military option might be exercised...
Add to that the fact that Georgia is NOT part of NATO, so there's no real obligation on our part to come to their rescue.
And add to THAT the fact that we are, as you said, stretched thin at the moment - which of course the Russians can't help but be aware of. For them, this must've looked like their perfect moment.
And you're right - the only real chance the Georgians have at this point is to try to suck the Russians in and bleed them slowly, and hope they don't have the stomach for another long, drawn out occupation.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia
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300 gather at UN to protest Russian forces in Georgia
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-nygeor155802042aug15,0,30
40066.story
On the flip side:
Foxnews interview backfires?
12 year old Georgian girl thanks Russians for saving her family
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Man, Russian reporters are some tough folks.
Catches a round (just a graze though) and instead of running away, jacks on a set of armor and keeps reporting.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/14/vo.gerogia.journalis
t.shot.gerogiastatetv
(Stupid link runs a 30 second ad first, sorry)
An american journalist team would have hauled ass at the mere sound of gunfire.
-F
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The whole world now is stinking with the stench of Liberal Appeasement. It reeks out of all the current events of the day. Limp-wristed European-influenced IOC decision to give un-worthy China the Olympic Games (I guess Nazi Germany wasn't available this time)...what a joke!
European appeasement of Russia solely for oil supply allows Russia to go back to the good 'ole KGB USSR days. European appeasement of Russia that has prevented Georgia & Ukraine from joining NATO; whatcha gonna do now Europe? Watch all the new democracies in Eastern Europe fall back under the Iron Curtain? Their appeasement has really come back to roost right on their front door.
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Quote:
Originally posted by participant:
Pattern of Exercises
perhaps American soldiers and/or Mercs (Blackwater) are on the ground ‘advising’, some ‘advising’ to their deaths.
Will McCain say where that lobby money came from? Obama take a page from the book of Donald "Dr.Stranglove" Rumsfield ?
This whole fiasco has seriously blackened the reputation and diminished the power of the US and if it were not for the ongoing Iraq mess the US would be way more respected around the world.
Here's more on the reports of mercenaries and advisers
http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2008/8/11/2572/15085
Blackwater in Georgia? Now We Can Call Them Mercs.
Reports are also out Rove Met with the Georgian President and Israel advisers took part in Attack on S. Ossetia. Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli firms hundreds of military advisers, to train them in artillery and combat tactics.
Unfortunately some of these tactics involved the bombing of civilian areas and the bombing of an area where 90% of the people held Russian passports
No doubt Russia is communist and oppressive
but the homeland of Stalin
the homeland of Georgia is the first sinner, they were aggressors bombing a civilian area
was Saakashvili so stupid as not to think Russia would respond
and Saakashvili needs his butt handed to him.
Related?
Poland, U.S. sign missile shield deal
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/15/poland.us.shield/index.
html
and now the political mud slinging
Lieberman Blasts Obama Over Georgia
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,403622,00.html
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I have some suspicions.
Look at the geographical positioning of Georgia, and potential supply routes for their support of middle east allies - and tell me it does not occur to you that this particular set of events might have been "helped along" by certain someones intelligence people ?
There's little if any evidence of that, but just sayin it's awfully damned convenient.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
Oil is like the devils juice
it makes governments do insane things
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The whole world now is stinking with the stench of Liberal Appeasement. It reeks out of all the current events of the day. Limp-wristed European-influenced IOC decision to give un-worthy China the Olympic Games (I guess Nazi Germany wasn't available this time)...what a joke!
European appeasement of Russia solely for oil supply allows Russia to go back to the good 'ole KGB USSR days. European appeasement of Russia that has prevented Georgia & Ukraine from joining NATO; whatcha gonna do now Europe? Watch all the new democracies in Eastern Europe fall back under the Iron Curtain? Their appeasement has really come back to roost right on their front door.
Yup, and throw into that mix American (via Bush) "appeasement" of Iraq ("It's not a timeline, it's a... time horizon..."), Iran, and now both Georgia ("We're on your side!") AND Russia ("We're not taking sides!") all at the same time.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia
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It's not as cut-and-dried as you think.
Hubby grew up in communist Hungary. His mom's side of the family were villagers: farmers and miners, "common folk". In fact, his mom worked as a governness for a noble family which had honest-to-god serfs, evil overseer with whip and all.
His dad's side of the family were aspiring/ disappointed dukes and duchesses. The kind of people who had gold toilets. One half of the family was very happy with communism, the other half was not.
The Hungarian uprising was in part fomented by the VOA's constant barrage of propaganda. The people who took part in it were not only students, but also con-men, ex-nobility, and leftover fascists from WWI. Hubby recalls several "moles" in the uprising's side who were hung from lamposts and killed by razor-blade cuts. (The old fascists really knew how to make people suffer.) Many people were glad to see the Russians roll in.
---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Quote:Appeasement is right, but this oil thing has become a cliché. Every time something happens in the world people blame it on oil without even bothering to think it through. Georgia is not an oil rich country. Russia is not invading Georgia for oil at least not solely or explicitly, but Russia is also not invading Georgia for the humanitarian issue they dreamed up, which Moscow couldn’t care less about. This is what we call an act for incremental increase in influence. Russia is making a veiled threat to the world.
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The whole world now is stinking with the stench of Liberal Appeasement. It reeks out of all the current events of the day. Limp-wristed European-influenced IOC decision to give un-worthy China the Olympic Games (I guess Nazi Germany wasn't available this time)...what a joke!
European appeasement of Russia solely for oil supply allows Russia to go back to the good 'ole KGB USSR days. European appeasement of Russia that has prevented Georgia & Ukraine from joining NATO; whatcha gonna do now Europe? Watch all the new democracies in Eastern Europe fall back under the Iron Curtain? Their appeasement has really come back to roost right on their front door.
Russia wants to maintain or re-institute, if not direct control of breakaway Russian Republics then a hegemony, which is threatened by NATO. In other words, NATO as an equal or superior military power can provide the means (membership) by which breakaway Russian Republicans like Georgia and the Ukraine can finally become independent of Russia hegemonic control. By invading Georgia, Russia is making a threat to the Ukraine to give up its bid for NATO membership and if Georgia doesn’t end up falling under total Russian control, then for Georgia to do the same. If Georgia does fall under Russian control, either by regime change or through tight political control, then Russia will control all the Pipelines into Europe and will be in a better place to dictate terms to Europe and NATO.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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