Surge or Surrender
POSTED BY: Hero
UPDATED: Saturday, January 20, 2007 17:03
VIEWED: 15139
PAGE 19 of 21
Quote:King George wasn't that bad
Originally posted by SignyM:
So sayeth King George. God save the King.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
"And by the way, save the strawman arguments for someone who cares.
While some folk may have put forth the concept of putting yourself or your kids in this war, to which the reaction has been pretty nasty, let's turn that one around a bit then, for them that support this madness.
So, it's not ok to send your OWN kids, but perfectly fine to send OTHER PEOPLES ?
To send MINE ?
Think real hard about what you are saying.
You're saying "No, I wouldn't send MY kid, but I'll sure as hell vote to send YOURS."
Gee, real nice of you, thanks.
I've been nice, I've been reasonable, but on this completely asinine point, that's about to not happen.
Sure, have your opinion, that's all you, and of no concern to me, if you feel it's a good idea, what have you, who am I to say different, sure.
But when you vote to loot my pocket and my family for it, it is at that point I want YOU to put an equal ante on the table, or face some well deserved scorn and vitriol for being hypocritical, thieving, murderous scum.
-Frem"
Speaking of sophomoric straw man arguments...
There are two problems with your vitriol.
1) Nobody has voted to send anyone's kids into combat. Some people would like to deploy adults who have volounteered for military service into a warzone.
2) A society can not function unless people are prepared to vote to send other people to do jobs that they themselves are unable or unwilling to do.
The fact that you are not a Part Time Garbage Man, Police Officer, and Firefighter means that you are as much a Hypocrite as those you rail against.
It gets worse. Not all Police Officers are Bomb Disposal experts, yet they probably all believe in the virtues of Bomb Disposal, and would sit idly by (perhaps even offer support!) while other people's kids are sent to disarm bombs. The Hypocrites! Why aren't they taking courses in Bomb Disposal and suiting up in Bomb Suits themselves? Arseholes!
And you, Frem... I BET YOU SUPPORT THE BLOODY FIRE DEPARTMENT! YOU SCUM!
Why isn't it you running into all the burning buildings, Frem? My Cousin is a Firefighter, Frem. WHY DO YOU WANT MY COUSIN TO DIE?!
Shame on you, Frem! Go to hell, you cold, calculating Hypoctitical Bastard!
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
That being said...
It *IS* a legitimate question - if you are supporting a war, willing to send other people to their deaths, but unwilling to *materially* support it if YOU have to put forth any effort, if YOU have to take any risks...
That's not what's being said though. Look back, I completely agreed with the point that we are seeing disproportionate sacrifices in this war. We aren't selling war bonds, we're not even having organises drives to get materal to comfort the troops let alone paying in higher taxes the cost of running the war. If that was his point he'd have my complete agreement. Since it isn't he doesn't.
Quote:
How the hell do you sleep at night ?
With a machine to help me breathe. You?
Quote:
So, it's not ok to send your OWN kids, but perfectly fine to send OTHER PEOPLES ?
To send MINE ?
No, what's being said is that to be "hard core," to be allowed any opinion you, Fremdfirma must be willing to put your kids lives on the line for it. Your opinion on the south, Lincoln, reconstruction? Retoric, worthless because you obviously don't really believe in it unless you are willing to sacrifice little Frem.
That's fanatic thinking. That's the kind of logic that says a real Muslim mother should be proud of her suicide bomber son because he proved he was a true Muslim dying for Jihad.
Quote:
You're saying "No, I wouldn't send MY kid, but I'll sure as hell vote to send YOURS."
Gee, real nice of you, thanks.
Right now nobody is sending anybody that didn't choose to place themselves in a possition to be sent. My little brother is a fireman. If your house caught fire and little Frem was trapped upstairs you'd probably want my brother to go into that house and try to rescue little Frem, because you know, that's his job. You love lil Frem you want to save her, I love my brother and want to keep him safe. I think we're probably both normal folks in wanting that. My baby brother, being who he is, will do whatever he can to save your kid. I didn't send him in there, you can't blame or praise me for that, he chose to do it because that's the kind of guy he is and the job he chose to do.
We have a professional military, nobody was drafted, nobody was press ganged off the street. Are there some in it that saw it as a short cut to college and didn't think they would have to actually fight? Possibly, but the intent of a military force is to fight an enemy and when you sign up to join it that's what you signed up to do just like firemen sign up to fight fires and cops to uphold the law.
If your house is on fire, if little Frem is screaming in a window and my little brother shows up with his crew you reasonably expect my brother to help. You have no problem potentially sacrificing him for your home and loved ones. I don't immediately think you are a heartless monster for wanting my bro to put his life on the line in that situation. I don't demand that the price for expecting your fire to be fought is that you join the brigade or force your child to. My brother is a professional and a hero in my eyes, I let him know that.
Quote:
Sure, have your opinion, that's all you, and of no concern to me, if you feel it's a good idea, what have you, who am I to say different, sure.
But when you vote to loot my pocket and my family for it, it is at that point I want YOU to put an equal ante on the table, or face some well deserved scorn and vitriol for being hypocritical, thieving, murderous scum.
-Frem
Why don't you tell me what you really think?
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duplicate
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In Frem's world, this country of ~300 million people contains a 1% elite who are allowed to have an opinion about war. This elite consists of the less than 3 million active duty military personnel serving in the US Armed Forces.
Frem himself is not one of those people. While he may have had the balls to risk his ass for an opinion in the past, he is no longer on active duty. So, since he is no longer personally taking the risks, he no longer gets a vote.
Frem does not get to have an opinion about when/if a burning building is put out by Firefighters. If he is not an actively serving Firefighter, he is not allowed an opinion. Only Firefighters are allowed to have any thoughts on the matter.
Frem does not get to have any opinions about crime, until and unless he straps on a badge. Only police officers can have such opinions.
In Frem's world, there are a hundred thousand voting blocks. Each of these voting blocks gets to form opinions only about jobs and situations that they are physically, personally involved in.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Finn,
I owe you an apology. My last post here was really kind of a mish-mash of a whole bunch of ideas that got crammed together into a too short post. I was having a whole crowd of thoughts and I felt I had some insight into some folk's obsession with a question which amounts to nothing more than emotional blackmail. I was trying to say that if you feel the need to resort to that kind of thing, and we all do from time to time, whatever you're trying to say won't get heard because the gulf between you and the people you're arguing with is too wide.
At the same time I was feeling like you and the other pro-surge folks were completely off your rockers for backing the thing. So the two issues (dumb-ass inflamatory argumentation, my own dismay over communication with the folks who support the surge) got mixed up and I ended up pretty much siding with the folks I was trying to critique. I'm no stranger to self-critique or to paradox so as I wrote the post it seemed reasonable enough to me. My bad.
I'm sorry for not taking the time to make myself clearer. I don't think you're evil by any means, but I do believe that you are gravely, gravely mistaken about our prospects in this war and have been from the get-go. As things just get worse and worse over there, I find your continued support of the project dismaying 'cause I know you to be a well informed and intelligent person. That the surge has gotten any traction at all in Congress and the nation brings my dismay and outrage over the whole stinking war to new heights. I believe the surge to be the latest in a long line of dispicable face-saving stunts perpetrated by this White House, one which our soldiers will pay for dearly. Honestly, it makes me a little crazy to contemplate it and I get a little mixed up about the whole thing sometimes. I see other anti-surge people getting mixed up and I can empathize.
But getting back to the rather more trivial issue at hand: I think this question "Would you send your kids?" Is a crappy, rhetorical, irrelevant, passive-aggressive attack. Americans obviously don't mind electing draft-dodgers into the White House. Not because Americans suck and lack courage or whatever, but because Americans are rightly, obviously, vastly ambivalent about warfare.
"Oh, no!" the b.s. questioner exclaims, "Ambivalence is the Devil and if your behavior can be seen to be inconsistent from any angle I can devise, you and everyone like you is a hypocrite!"
Inconsistency is not a crime, nor is ambivalence, particularly when it comes to huge issues like war.
Furthermore, I'd like to call b.s. on the over-the-top macho undercurrent of the question, the implication that Anthony "isn't a man" or some such crap for feeling too out of shape to be a soldier. Goddamn, people, let up, nobody's perfect, not even Frem.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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One of the reasons you ask questions of public figures is because you want to know who you are voting for or who is representing you in office.
So I guess it does speak volumes that I would like to know those answers.
I absolutely agree with the both of you that the question has been used badly in the past...is still often used badly...
but the answer can be telling. I don't like the idea of having our soldiers sent into a conflict by people who were unwilling to serve themselves for a war they believed in..and that would go for Clinton as well. I'm not sure what his thoughts are on the vietnam war, but I know he didn't serve. I think an answer from him on that question would be more than warranted. It isn't the end all be all. It isn't any kind of coup-de-gras. But it's important to know.
When it's asked of people who aren't in office, I think HKCavalier is right, it's out of trying to get at some common thread with the person we are talking to...to get them to see what we don't think they see. Is the war worth the cost or risk of their son's and daughters? If they can not say yes to that, than maybe they should reevalute whether its worth the sons and daughters of their neighbors. That doesn't mean the people we're talking to don't see, but there is an obvious disconnect between us and them...these types of questions are in your opinion inflamatory, but in my opinion are an attempt at conveying something and of trying to understand.
I can't speak for everybody who uses the question, but you can't speak for me and why I think its an important one, though you certainly have taken the liberty to do so.
You also mischaracterize me pretty blatantly when you paint me as an elitist who thinks that there are different standards for different stations. I even said at one point that anthonyt's later post may be a valid answer to the question. that it's an important question doesn't mean that there's a right answer and a wrong answer.
Also,
You can believe in law and order and not be a cop, sure. Until you find an example of the closest thing to the comparison to servicemen who have no say in where and how long they are deployed, which has gone well and beyond what they sigened up for, you don't have an equivolent metaphor though.
the point is you are placing this burden on these soldiers, and up to the point where they signed up and did their time, that was a burden that they themselves took on, but it's gone way beyond that now. So fuck yes, it's a valid question. One that everybody should ask of themselves anyway.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Yes. It was facetious. Something I thought I had made clear, but thank you for point it out again.
I’ve been accused of lacking empathy for American servicemen and told that the founding fathers would spit in my face, evidently, my own counterinsurgency has failed.
-- Cicero
Appologies for my knee-jerk reaction. I can take things a bit literally at times.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
Until you find an example of the closest thing to the comparison to servicemen who have no say in where and how long they are deployed, which has gone well and beyond what they sigened up for, you don't have an equivolent metaphor though.
Now you're trying to change the subject. That's a question of degree, not principle. A lot of people in crisis situations are expected to work far longer than they are contracted to. I don't disagree that the military is being misused but to suggest that I can't use cops of firemen as comparable examples because of the extra effort the military is expected to put in is plain evasion.
Still I commend you, folks on both sides of the issue think your question is BS. It's nice to see that there are still some things on which we can all agree.
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Blah blah blah, and more blah blah blah....
Just get the troops home asap!
Get them out of the middle of that religious civil war...bring them all home now.
There is absolutley NO REASON to stay any longer.
We've done a noble thing....liberated a country from a ruthless mass-murdering tyrant, and given them an opportunity for freedom & democracy, 3 elections for a new governement, trained their police & military....BUT Iraqis don't want what we've tried to give...they just wanna fucking kill eachother and we have no business being there anymore.....and NO I really don't care if Iran attacks Iraq..not one iota..in fact maybe that would force the UN & Europe to do something... for once.
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