Surge or Surrender
POSTED BY: Hero
UPDATED: Saturday, January 20, 2007 17:03
VIEWED: 15139
PAGE 15 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
To my knowledge, we still don't have a recruitment crisis.
It's easy to tell when there is a recruitment crisis.
How 'bout, " all you National Guardsmen, we're upping your active duty committement to 24 months at a time. So tell your civilian boss, at your civilian job, that we're gonna take you away for 2 years, and then we can call you back again and again, if we need you, as often as we want."
That's the new policy, announced just the other day.
And when it all isn't enough, and there's a war still to fight, and they send letters to people like me... that'll be the neon sign that says "Crisis."
I guess we just have a different 'crisis' threshold.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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double
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I'm sorry to beat a dead horse here anthonyt,
but the situations are vastly different between a popular war and an unpopular war.
I've dilineated them. It's a matter of need, and its a matter of the treatment of the currently serving soldiers.
You want to say they are the same. I've said they are different based on the above reasons. If you're going to say they are the same again, then please adress the above reasons.
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"AnthonyT
I'd suggest that the difference between this war and a popular war is that our military is stretched thin, has to keep changing its recruitment goals and standards, is stop-lossing the soldiers who are over there and want to come home - has just recently changed its policy on tours of duty!"
Your argument then, is that the difference between a popular war and an unpopular war is how thin our military is stretched? That's the criteria that should make war supporters have to join the military?
Well, I can ALMOST see some logic in that.
And I say again that when the military really IS stretched too thinly to do its job, there WILL be mandatory service in the military.
Not based on an opinion.
Rather based on a country of residence.
I will never advocate military service becoming mandatory based on the expression of an opinion. That is, and continues to be, ludicrous. (Perhaps even Plaid!)
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenixship:
would you give your son or daughter's life today in this fight? And of course: why aren't you in the Marines right now?
This isn't directed at me, but I'll answer it. I'll answer it because I HATE this argument whenever I see it.
I would completely support my son's decision if he wanted to join the military, even if it was a time of war. I'd sit down and explain to him that there's a chance he could die horribly or experience grotesque horrors the likes of which modern humans aren't conditioned to see. Then, if he said he still wanted to join, I'd give him a hug, tell him I was proud that he'd found some direction for his life, and give him my every support.
The decision do join the military or not isn't based on your love or hate for the 'war of the moment.' It's based on what you wish to do with your life, and where your priorities lay.
As to part II of that question, "Why aren't I in the Marines?"
Well, because I'm out of shape and lazy. There was a time I considered joining the military. I have a lot of respect for their mission. Namely, protecting and serving the United States of America. But I just couldn't see myself getting through boot camp. Honestly. I've promised myself that if we're ever invaded I'll join the militia and do the best I can with my SKS rifle.
But anyway, here's what ticks me off.
If you support a particular war, are you required to sign up and join the military to fight that war? Is it possible to have a fcuking opinion without having to join the Marines? Is it possible to support an effort with something other than blood and steel?
If we had a popular war, and everyone who supported the war was required to join the Marines, wouldn't that make the country grind to a halt? You wouldn't expect 300 million recruits during a popular war, would you?
So why do you ask the supporters of an unpopular war to join the Marines, and then chastise them for not doing it?
It's bad arguing. I'm tired of hearing it.
Plus, it's not needed. You can argue against this war all day long without chastising supporters with, "Why aren't you joining the Marines? Why aren't you throwing your children at Iraqi insurgents like hand grenades irrespective of their free will? Didn't you know that if you don't do these things you can't have an affirmative fcuking opinion?"
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
Looks like I struck a nerve...
Your response is bullshit to anyone who has kids - my apologies to you if you do, but your attitude is inexplicable. This kind of 19th century thinking is what makes war possible. Parents who allow their children to fight for leaders who send them on suicide missions make "wars" like Iraq possible. My country, right or wrong, indeed.
Nice try at a switcheroo, by the way. I would never dispespect my child's decision to join the military. That's not the question. The question is: would you sacrifice a loved ones' life for a meaningless mission. If our country were invaded by a true enemy tomorrow, I would support my child, and I'd be there right beside them. I imagine you'd still be sitting at your computer.
It is a valid argument, and it exposes the hypocrisy of this war.
Finally, why don't you get off your ass, get in shape, and join up? I'm sure they're all super glad that you "respect the mission." You talk big for somebody sitting stateside. Your excuses fall flat.
And in answer to your next question, yes I did serve in the US Army. I am a veteran and proud of it. I ask you respectfully not to denigrate our armed forces again.
Since there are other valid arguments against the war, this one isn't needed? Bullshit. It just hits too close to home for you.
Your other "arguments" don't merit response.
"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenixship:Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Looks like I struck a nerve...
Your response is bullshit to anyone who has kids - my apologies to you if you do, but your attitude is inexplicable. This kind of 19th century thinking is what makes war possible. Parents who allow their children to fight for leaders who send them on suicide missions make "wars" like Iraq possible. My country, right or wrong, indeed.
Nice try at a switcheroo, by the way. I would never dispespect my child's decision to join the military. That's not the question. The question is: would you sacrifice a loved ones' life for a meaningless mission. If our country were invaded by a true enemy tomorrow, I would support my child, and I'd be there right beside them. I imagine you'd still be sitting at your computer.
It is a valid argument, and it exposes the hypocrisy of this war.
Finally, why don't you get off your ass, get in shape, and join up? I'm sure they're all super glad that you "respect the mission." You talk big for somebody sitting stateside. Your excuses fall flat.
And in answer to your next question, yes I did serve in the US Army. I am a veteran and proud of it. I ask you respectfully not to denigrate our armed forces again.
Since there are other valid arguments against the war, this one isn't needed? Bullshit. It just hits too close to home for you.
Your other "arguments" don't merit response.
"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"
Hey there Phoenix,
You sure did strike a nerve, and thank you for noticing. Fallacious arguments always strike a nerve with me.
Here is your fallacious argument:
"That's not the question. The question is: would you sacrifice a loved ones' life for a meaningless mission."
The argument equates to, "Would you kill your son for no reason?"
Well, when you put it that way, no, I wouldn't. I don't think anyone would. But if you ask someone, "Would you allow your son to serve in the military, fight in wars he doesn't choose, and risk his life for his country?"
Well, that's a lot closer to the truth. Even though I can't make anyone serve, nor make anyone not serve, I would completely support my son's decision if that's what he wanted to do. And I'd be proud of him.
As to the other question, "Why don't you get in shape/join up?" The answer is, if I haven't made it abundantly clear: I don't think I've got what it takes.
If the government ever gets to a point that they don't care, and they draft me, I'll go where I'm sent.
Now, Phoenix, if you're still reading, which I doubt, I will explain (again) why I think the argument is a bad one.
You can't make or expect someone to serve in the military for having an opinion.
In other words, it's okay to think the war is a good idea and not sign up to join the military.
There was a book written by Heinlein, a popular Science Fiction writer. It was called Starship Troopers.
In Starship Troopers, only military veterans were allowed to vote. The idea was that only people who were willing to put their lives on the line in armed conflict for their country should have the right to express an opinion that mattered.
We do not live in the Heinlein novel. We live in the real world. In the United States. And in this country, and in this reality, EVERYONE gets an opinion. And they don't have to sign up for military service to have an opinion.
So if someone says, "I believe in this war" it's stupid to counter with, "Why aren't you in the military?"
I believe in putting out fires, but I'm sure not a Firefighter.
I believe in the importance of sanitation, but I don't work in the Sewers.
I have never denigrated our armed forces.
I don't believe that the war in Iraq is a good idea.
I do believe in arguments that work.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:If you don’t agree with this countries decision to go to war, then leave. If you don’t like this government, then go find a country with a government you do agree with, but stop bitching about it. You certainly have as much or more of a choice to get the hell out, as Anthony has to join the military.
Originally posted by Phoenixship:
Looks like I struck a nerve...
Your response is bullshit to anyone who has kids - my apologies to you if you do, but your attitude is inexplicable. This kind of 19th century thinking is what makes war possible. Parents who allow their children to fight for leaders who send them on suicide missions make "wars" like Iraq possible. My country, right or wrong, indeed.
Nice try at a switcheroo, by the way. I would never dispespect my child's decision to join the military. That's not the question. The question is: would you sacrifice a loved ones' life for a meaningless mission. If our country were invaded by a true enemy tomorrow, I would support my child, and I'd be there right beside them. I imagine you'd still be sitting at your computer.
It is a valid argument, and it exposes the hypocrisy of this war.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Have you ever been in support of any conflict anywhere in the world at any time in your life?
That we have been involved in? no.
I did serve a stint, and a further in the reserve - till the army actually violated the terms of my enlistment contract, something we abitrated rather than handling via lawsuit, and still remain on the IRR rolls, although physically too messed up to serve in an active conflict, I can still be called to serve in cases of invasion, civil disorder or natural disaster, which if need be I would do, sure... someone hasta fill sandbags during a flood, might as well be me.
As for invading some other country in clear violation of the Constitution I swore to uphold and protect ? - I would have responded just as I did on two rather notorious occasions before when illegal orders were issued to me, "With respect sir, go to hell!".
(Both times command fully supported such a refusal)
See, when I took that oath, I had a clear understanding of the Constitution, and one of the reasons we went to arbitration was due to the moral crisis of serving a government that was rapidly becoming an enemy of the very things I swore to protect, in a standing army that in and of itself violated those very principles, thus leading to service in the reserves and finally IRR when phsyically mangled (auto accident) beyond the ability to serve actively.
I don't feel it's a ridiculous position at all, if you believe in a cause so strongly you should support it, staunch religous folk pay a tithe and attend church, unless their own principles are in conflict with those things, yes ?
I am not askin someone to do so to voice an opinion, an opinion is just that, but if someone feels so very strongly supportive of something, it's an honest, logical question WHY they're not physically supporting it.
I think this war is asinine, myself, and a disaster, and having served have utmost sympathy if not respect for our guys on the ground - screw politics, most of them don't wanna be there either and have a better appreciation of what a disaster this is, you see.
And so I send em care packages, a lot of the younger guys with no close family especially, without discussion cause there ain't no point to bitchin at THEM, and ride the hell out of my representatives to get em outta there in the meantime.
And so the question is both valid and logical, if someone supports it, then how are they supporting it ?
Quote:
I know we wouldn't want to hear pro-war people saying, "If you don't support this war, then you should give up citizenship and stop paying taxes, because every dollar collected contributes materially to the war effort."
I don't see where the citizenship thing fits in, since the IRS won't accept that anyhow, unless you know of a case where they have, which I don't... but the taxes now, what do you see me throwin a fit ABOUT, eh?
Being forced via threat of violence/incarceration to finance this lunacy.
The problem comes from not getting to choose where that money goes, cause having grown up in some VERY poor neighborhoods, I do wholeheartedly support AFDC and most social services, and if we cut em off those things would suffer long before military spending would, grr
As for a popular war, hell yes, if it's so popular raise some civvie militia and get over there and help, durn it, more boots on the ground don't hurt, and if they've not the training for line service, drive trucks and cook and what have you, freeing more line troops up for the front.
Not a bad idea at all honestly and one that has a great deal of merit.
Still, as I said quite clearly, it's a logical question to ask someone who supports a war in what significant material fashion that they do, that's not screechin at them to 'send their kids off' that's just askin them to put some stakes on the table, is all.
-Frem
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Quote:So sayeth King George. God save the King.
If you don’t agree with this countries decision to go to war, then leave. If you don’t like this government, then go find a country with a government you do agree with, but stop bitching about it.
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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"Still, as I said quite clearly, it's a logical question to ask someone who supports a war in what significant material fashion that they do, that's not screechin at them to 'send their kids off' that's just askin them to put some stakes on the table, is all.
-Frem"
Ah, Frem, but the question isn't "How do you support the war?"
The question is, "Why aren't you signing up for service?" (And sometimes, "Why don't you make your kids serve?" which is even more rediculous.)
I myself don't do anything to support this war beyond pay my taxes. I often can be heard to tell people that this war is a bad idea, and that it's going to end badly no matter what we do.
I have been known to support the troops, though. Not with sweat and blood, mind you, nor artillery nor combat boots. But I have been involved in drives to send supplies and care packages to troops. (Including one case of Firefly DVDs!)
Now, if you want to ask a pro-war person, "What do you do to support the war in Iraq?" That would be a valid question. As valid as asking an anti-war person, "What do you do to end the war in Iraq?"
The answer will probably be things like, "I vote for people who support my position. I write letters of support for politicians who vote the way I want, etc."
Now, those are perfectly good questions and perfectly good answers.
But they're not arguments. Asking someone, "Well, if you like the war so much, why don't you join?" isn't an argument.
Or do you think someone's going to say, "Hey, you're right! If I don't sign up for Marine duty, I really DON'T support this war! I'm switching sides in this debate!" ???
Good arguments might begin with other kinds of questions.
Questions like: "How long is it going to take to stabilize Iraq?"
and
"Can we afford it?"
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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