Surge or Surrender
POSTED BY: Hero
UPDATED: Saturday, January 20, 2007 17:03
VIEWED: 15139
PAGE 16 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
If you don’t agree with this countries decision to go to war, then leave. If you don’t like this government, then go find a country with a government you do agree with, but stop bitching about it. You certainly have as much or more of a choice to get the hell out, as Anthony has to join the military.
I usually expect better of you Finn.
First, and most importantly as it relates to my response, since when did dissent with the government mean a greenlight to a trip out of the country? Since when did anyone with an opinion need to keep quiet about it?
Second, I don't think Phoenixship's point was clear. Would a person(s) send their child voluntarily to fight in THIS war? Not wars in general, not wars of defense, not a forced service somewhere due to a voluntary enlistment. Would YOU give up YOUR child to fight in THIS one; i.e., do you support the ethics/reasons to be in Iraq enough to sacrifice a child for them? I don't think it's an invalid point, however emotionally made it may be. Personally, I could say I would make that choice about many wars, but this one, not so much.
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"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
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Quote:That’s my point exactly. Since when did not dissenting mean a trip into the military? A lot of military men and women have died so that we could have those opinions.
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
I usually expect better of you Finn.
First, and most importantly as it relates to my response, since when did dissent with the government mean a greenlight to a trip out of the country? Since when did anyone with an opinion need to keep quiet about it?
And I don’t think anyone should leave the country because they disagree with the government, I just wanted someone to make my point for me, because no one would listen to me otherwise.
Quote:It’s not a valid argument. Whether someone wants their child to die in a war has nothing to do with whether someone believes a war is right or not. You can believe a war is right and still not want your child to die in it. But ultimately, the decision of whether your child joins the military is not necessarily yours. Because no minor can be recruited into the military unless it is his or her deciscion to do so, however few recruits are minors, anyway.
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Second, I don't think Phoenixship's point was clear. Would a person(s) send their child voluntarily to fight in THIS war? Not wars in general, not wars of defense, not a forced service somewhere due to a voluntary enlistment. Would YOU give up YOUR child to fight in THIS one; i.e., do you support the ethics/reasons to be in Iraq enough to sacrifice a child for them? I don't think it's an invalid point, however emotionally made it may be. Personally, I could say I would make that choice about many wars, but this one, not so much.
There could be certain cases in which a mother or father may believe in a war in which they try to shield their own child from it. You could call these hypothetical parents hypocrites, but that has nothing to do with the war, because parents often shield their children from things they believe or do themselves. But it strikes me as being a bit insulting to shake your finger at a concerned mother because you’ve got some ideological bent you want to push.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
If you don’t agree with this countries decision to go to war, then leave. If you don’t like this government, then go find a country with a government you do agree with, but stop bitching about it. You certainly have as much or more of a choice to get the hell out, as Anthony has to join the military.
I usually expect better of you Finn.
First, and most importantly as it relates to my response, since when did dissent with the government mean a greenlight to a trip out of the country? Since when did anyone with an opinion need to keep quiet about it?
Second, I don't think Phoenixship's point was clear. Would a person(s) send their child voluntarily to fight in THIS war? Not wars in general, not wars of defense, not a forced service somewhere due to a voluntary enlistment. Would YOU give up YOUR child to fight in THIS one; i.e., do you support the ethics/reasons to be in Iraq enough to sacrifice a child for them? I don't think it's an invalid point, however emotionally made it may be.[/qoute]
Phoenixship:
Thanks for clarifying if I wasn't too clear. I was referring to this war, and specifically the "surge". Can anyone honestly see this as anything but a hail mary? It's a last-minute attempt at salvaging a legacy for one evil man - paid for with the blood of whoever dies between now and the day he is forced to give up his crusade. How would any of us feel if a loved one perished during that gap of time?
Yes, it's true... it is an emotional appeal. I wondered when someone would call me on that - guilty as charged. You've hit on what is admittedly the weakest aspect of what I said. Emotional appeals are fraught with risk.
sevenpercent:Quote:
Personally, I could say I would make that choice about many wars, but this one, not so much.
------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
Phoenixship:
Also, to remind anyone, I never proposed that EVERYONE who was in favor of this "war" should be required to sign up - just those of us who are so quick to wave the flag and volunteer others to fight and die.
And as for the suggestion that we're not yet at crisis stage, anyone who thinks so is simply not paying attention. "We're a coupla county lines passed crisis stage."
"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"
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It's an emotionally charged artificial argument. NOBODY would deliberately sacrifice their child for any principle, at least nobody that wasn't at least a little crazy. Likewise if someone was at an age where they chose to enter the military then they would be at an age where they had their own life and make their own decisions. I know my mother didn't have much luck persuading my brother not to join.
So at it's core this is a playground argument not much better than "my dad's bigger that your dad" except in this case it's "if you believe in it so much why aren't you the one dying for it?"
But even that's an artificial argument. You don't ask "if you believe in law and order why don't you become a cop?" or "if you want someone to save your family from a fire you should join the local fire brigade." It's generally accepted in our society that we contract certain individuals to perform certain services for the rest of us. That is what the professional military is, a career like any other. He doesn't have to do the job personally to still believe it needs to be done, just like he doesnt need to be in a police cruiser to believe in law and order.
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Quote:
But they're not arguments. Asking someone, "Well, if you like the war so much, why don't you join?" isn't an argument.
Argument or not, it IS a valid question to ask, on that point I will stand.
Also equally valid is the question "So what are you doing to stop this madness ?"
I don't see either question as irrelevant or an affront at all.
-F
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I think what's at issue for the folks hanging their argument on this "would you send your kid into this mess?" gambit is their belief that something has gone wrong with the pro-surge people's empathy. The pro-surgers seem perfectly willing to believe in this disgusting, face-saving, 11th hour, presidential stunt, in spite of the mountain of bodies and trillions of dollars that point toward another innevitable conclusion to our American Iraqi adventure (if all we needed was 20,000 extra troops to win this thing, why didn't we send them in LAST YEAR?). In their desperation to reach the Finns of the world they try to bring the "reality" of the situation "home."
"Would you feel proud if your son or daughter died fighting in this current war, or would you feel disgusted and used?"
But a lot of times, the folks who most need schooling are the least available for it. In other words, if they could understand what you're trying to teach them, they wouldn't have needed the lesson in the first place.
In my experience, when people turn abusive (that is, lose their empathy) there's no talking to them until they're quite in another mood. America has been stuck in this rageful, vengeful, jingoistic mood for 6 years now. I always thought it would come to an end. After Afghanistan. After Shock and Awe. After Abu Ghraib. After Fallujah. After Iraq?
What I'm certain of is that it will come to an end. The bloodthirsty rage will end. Enough people will have died. And then we will find the strength to put down our swords and get on with the really hard work of living with our mistakes and with our moral failings.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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It’s not strength that will allow us do that. The easy option has always been to give up.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Case in point. 
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Yawn...Finn,
give up?
Give up on what? this isn't the war we went in to fight. We were lied to, and I personally bought the lie. Now I find out that our mission wasn't what I threw my support behind. that's not giving up...that's asserting control as citizens over our rogue government. To do otherwise would be to give up.
We're there for the wrong reasons...it took lies to get us there...we are doing more harm than good there...I'm done with the "well we're there now" argument, and "we can't be quitters" bullshit.
At least put the argument in the right context. That of, "we fucked up over there and leaving might not be the best way to handle things."
That kind of candor could go a long way towards finding an actual solution. I don't know what we should do at this point, but I surely know we should stop lying to ourselves about it
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I don't see why we can't just compromise Hero.
Why can't we just mind our own f
ing business and become an isolationist country, and retain the right to bear arms and smoke a fing cigarette when we feel like it?
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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