Is There a Doctor in the House? (zoid post)
POSTED BY: zoid
UPDATED: Thursday, June 10, 2004 17:26
VIEWED: 12630
PAGE 1 of 1
Greetings, Fellow Browncoats!
Okay, so I figured I'd start labelling the threads that I'd started to help folks avoid my rambling diatribes -- or find 'em, if they're of a mind to read something quasi-serious...
I've been working long and odd hours this week and had very little time to chat and comment with you fine folks as a result. Ah, well. I'm gonna be off this week, and the tasks in the 'honeydew jar' don't appear too complex; maybe I'll get more time to say stuff. For those waiting for my final 'future quote', I'm probably gonna post that one right at midnight-oh-one CDT, because I've got a full day tomorrow. You night owls will get a jump on the early birds...
So, t'any rate, this here thread is a perspective on the good doctor of Firefly, Simon Tam. Like a poor football special teams unit, I'll kick it off and y'all will probably run it back down my throat. In this first installment, we'll look at his upbringing and how that affects his 'worldview'; and we'll discuss how he manages to be so smooth, suave and debonair and yet not 'close the deal' with Kaylee. Here goes...
Simon Tam is a child of wealth, born with the proverbial silver spoon in his mouth. From what we've seen, his parents are not as forthcoming with emotional support and nurturing as they are with the material trappings their life affords them. On the positive side, Father Tam is at least concerned with his children's potential abuse of the Internet, er, Cortex. Of course, he's probably just worried that someone is going to query the history and cookie cache and find that someone in his household -- *cough*Simon*sniffle* -- has been going to "XXX-RatedMechanicGirls.com" and ruin Papa's reputation.
It might've been interesting for Joss to have taken Simon's parents the other direction, instead of what must be seen as the prototypical, 'Mommy and Daddy don't really love us, all they care about is money' angle. Does anybody on this board, reading this thread, come from a wealthy family? Were your parents as blase about your well-being as Simon's parents are? I come from dirt-poor types, so I have no first hand knowledge; but, I am acquainted with a doctor whose only daughter was killed in an automobile accident. Let's just say that it made of him a shell of his former self. Based on that observation, I presume there are some wealthy parents of truly beloved children, and it would've been interesting to see them sacrifice their fortune and social standing (and maybe their lives) in an attempt to save River.
Regardless the veracity of the myth of rich, loving parents, clearly, Simon and River have an unusually close relationship because of their rich and yet emotionally disconnected parentage. Simon is also a very detail-oriented and goal-driven person; I believe this may be attributed to the example his parents set.
Just a guess here, but I'd bet he went to an exclusive, all-boys' school (like JW himself did in his last 2+ years of high school) and only ever associated with fems during heavily-chaperoned interschool mixers. There has been much speculation, but I'd put my money on him being revealed as a virgin (as Joss has confessed he himself was for an extended period of time). Simon's simply too awkward around girls.
Is he gay? It's been suggested hereabouts; but just because he's very pretty, fastidious and well-dressed doesn't make him, er, well maybe it does. But I'd guess he's het'ro-, as well as metro-sexual.
I've played the 'fantasy episode' game before, and here's another: "Queer Eye for the Firefly". Simon analyzes and does makeovers for the other male cast members. SIMON: "Shepherd Book, I love the way your ensemble is coordinated in blacks and grays -- the little white choker is dreamy -- but your hair? Puh-leeze, girl! I've got two words for you: Oh, My, God!". Or how about, SIMON: "Jayne? Grrreat name! That's as in 'Mansfield', right? You know, she lost her head... And so will the girls when they see you in your new outfit! I've chosen a much tigh
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Greetings, Fellow Browncoats!
(snipped)
To all the Simon-loving girls hereabouts: nyah-nyah-ny-nyah-nyah! All us manly men (you know, those of us who are so manly that females are intimidated by our rugged manliness, and so, shun us as though we were filthy, hairy beasts... which, okay we are), we all know that deep down y'all want real men like us, not dandies with dainty features, soft hands and silk blouses like Simon. Am I right guys? (Hears crickets chirping, wind rustling in the trees, grass growing)...
I enjoyed this post a great deal, Zoid, until we got to this part. Then I started wondering if perhaps you've been re-reading too many Gor novels lately.
LOL!Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.
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I will have a (well insofar as I'm capable of) quasi-intelligent response for this soon Zoid. Good theory. But right now True Grit calls...so after.
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"
My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html
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Okay Zoid, I'm back. (True Grit was as good as it ever was too )
Anyhow, I definately see where you're coming from. And one of the things that popped into my head when Jubal Early was philosophising in the sick bay, you know the line,"They make psychiatrists get psychoanalyized but they don't make doctors get cut on. Does that seem right to you?" Stuck in my head because if anyone on the ship needs a shrink it's Simon. That boy is so socially disfunctional it ain't even funny, especially when it comes to the fairer sex.
Now I did put forth my theory once upon a time that Simon may be gay, but people went and talked me out of it. So I'm willing to say Simon isn't gay. He's just dumb when it comes to women, I mean so dumb it makes Jayne look like a Nobel prize contender by virtue of "That's why I never kiss them on the mouth" line, which ain't saying much, but it's got Simon all manner of beat.
So Simon may not be gay, but he damn sure is...what's the word I'm looking for here. Effiminate doesn't quite capture it, dandy would be giving him too much credit...Oh I got it, a word my grandma used to use, Milqtoast. That's what he is. Now I know the boy has some virtues, he's compassionate and caring towards his sister, and he can be a "man of action" when he really has to be but...it doesn't fit him one little bit. He can do the action thing, but he doesn't do it exceptionally well and he seems to find the whole notion of having to "do" something as opposed to "think" something as slightly beneath him. Hell a lot beneath him in some cases.
Now you went on to do a pretty fair imitation of a Tim Allen skit there, and it was hi-lerious. And ya know what? I have to agree with you. Women (for the most part) ain't as dumb as men, we'll go for just the pretty looks but for a woman it has to be more than that. Women's Lib aside there isn't a woman I've known (and I've known lots...coughcough) that doesn't like a man that can do things, and who is willing to balance that gentlemanly opening of doors thing with the ability to go completely batshit crazy caveman when the situation calls for it.
Yeah prettyboy looks help, and smarts, and a sense of humor but if you're less manly than she is well...you ain't going to get her respect let alone a foundation to build something else on. Women expect a man to be a man, and if he isn't well then no ammount of pretty looks or fat wallet is going to make her keep ya around. Now granted just being "manly" isn't enough, so it helps to try to learn things so as to be able to carry on a conversation, or learn to cook, or for the love of God groom well; but when push comes to shove 90% of women will want a "manly" man who's well rounded in other areas enough to get by as opposed to a "sensitive" man who runs screaming from the sight of a hard day's work or an otherwise "manly" persuit. Know what I mean?
Simon needs what I've told people for years that Hugh Grant needs. Okay bear with this tangent. Hugh Grant is a funny guy, really funny sometimes, and he seems fairly smart and women tell me he's hot (even though I don't see it but hey I ain't looking that hard) and all, but he's a pansy. Yep I said it. P a n s y. You see him in a movie and you know what to expect, which I think is selling the guy short. What he needs to do is take as his next role something like a Commando Captain in WWII with bullets and guns and the whole nine yards. He needs, as ya said, roughed up some. But it can't be a show, he has to believe it so we can believe it, otherwise he's gonna have that pansy connection everytime I see his face on the screen. And that's pretty much the same for Simon, unless he kicks someone's ass and really means it sometime soon, he's gonna be in the Hugh Boat.
Yeah my tongue was firmly in cheek for most of this post but the fact remains, Simon needs to quit being such a sissy and DO something. Kissing Kaylee and meaning it would be a good start. Going batshit crazy with an assault rifle on some Blue Hands and looking like he means it would be even better.
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Annik wrote:
Quote:
I enjoyed this post a great deal, Zoid, until we got to this part. Then I started wondering if perhaps you've been re-reading too many Gor novels lately...
Ummm... Gor? I'm just guessing here, but he's the guy who originally 'rammed' it?
(zoid ducks as bits of rotting vegetable matter rains in from his periphery)
Respectfully,
zoid
P.S.
Please read my next post below, for an equivocation of my previous stance, which I hope may redeem my reputation to gentler readers.
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Gor are a series of really cheesy and mysogonistic (I never could spell that damn word) fantasy books from the '70s. Now I like my fantasy but Gor is...cheeeeeese. And not the good sort of cheese, it's the sort of cheese that makes you want to hit yourself with a hammer.
The guy that wrote them appearently had a leather fetish and thought he was Manly. Of course Robert E. Howard could have kicked his ass and was less of a momma's boy.
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"
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Gunhand and Annik:
As I pointed out earlier -- mostly in jest, I would stress -- something needs to change for Simon. I've got a good idea of what that thing is. With that in mind, I had a vision of a continuation of the scene in which Kaylee 'jumps' Simon, and which would lead to a satisfactory conclusion for their fans, and fit the Firefly story as well. Please consider the following my act of contrition to Simon's avid female admirers:
(As previously read, they're sitting alone in the dining room and Simon has noticed a basket of rolls Kaylee has prepared, on the other side of the table, near her)
SIMON: "Your buns look great. Would you mind...?"
KAYLEE: "Oh, Doc, I thought you'd never ask!"
(A whoosh of clothing, the sound of dishes clattering on the floor and the table creaking for about 30 seconds, and then...)
KAYLEE (mumbles, somewhat endorphin-fully): "Chinese food."
SIMON (disoriented, panting, lolls head towards her): "Huh?"
KAYLEE: "Oh, nothin', Sweetie. (pats his hand patronizingly, still groggy) I was just thinking that oughtta hold me for about 30 minutes. Think I'll go see what Jayne's up to in his bunk."
SIMON (still panting, then after a beat, laughing and tickling her playfully): "The hell you will! I may be 'chinese food', but this is an all-you-can-eat buffet. If you want seconds..."
(At this moment, Wash enters from the flight deck and gets a few paces into the dining room, before stopping in the middle of an apparently satisfying yawn, as he realizes Kaylee and Simon are naked on the table, with their discarded clothing only loosely draped over their bodies)
WASH: "(Yaawww) Whoa! (cough) Okay-hey, hey!"
(As Kaylee unselfconsciously removes her loosely draped blouse and begins putting it back on her torso, Wash spins away)
WASH: "Wow! (raises hand to forehead shading his eyes) I was just coming down to try to grab a bite, and... (drops hand, still looking away) Do you two have any idea what time it is? You kids should really be in bed ...somebody's bed, anybody's bed! ...A, bed, that's what I'm implying."
(Wash suddenly stops speaking and turns back toward the table, where Simon is still propped on one elbow, grinning in amusement and Kaylee has stopped dressing without getting much covered, in order to listen to Wash)
WASH (pointing at table beyond Simon's feet and asking in an incredulous and saddened voice): "Is that fresh bau!?"
(Wash straightens and walks haughtily over to the table, snatches the basket of rolls and promptly exits to flight deck, muttering below his breath, "Everybody gets bau but me! Why can't I ever get bau? It's not too much to ask, is it?", etc.)
In conclusion, I reckon Simon's (probably) hetero, but also a virgin. If Kaylee and he are going to get together, she's probably going to have to close the deal. I think she's had enough experience to know that his initial 30-second performance is nothing to be concerned about, that he'll improve with practice, so to speak; but, I think she might tease him about it, with the quip about going to see Jayne to get a proper 'grapple', similar to the way she teased him about not being able to picture him nude in the opening sequence in of OiS.
At least rate that's one way I could actually see it being done and, of course, I'm never wrong. (zoid chokes a bit, and suddenly has a coughing fit, as he writes that last line)
Respectfully,
zoid
_________________________________________________
"I knew a man once. History will never recall him, or what he gave to make us free. That's the way he wanted it. But as long as I live I'll remember, and he'll never truly die."
- River, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
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I can just see that happening with Wash somehow
---------------------------------------------
Experience has taught me that interest begets expectation, and expectation begets disappointment, so the key to avoiding disappointment is to avoid interest. A=B=C=A, or whatever
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In Defense Of Simon Tam
Okay, I have read, with interest and some amusement, the thoughts of certain others (Zoid and Gunhand, basically) and must reply.
First, you are right in saying that Simon needed to change, but you're missing the fact that he was changing. There were obvious outside signs (the gradual shift of the clothing to casual -- though when and why he went out and bought a whole new wardrobe, I have no idea). But there were also shifts in the character -- in Objects in Space, we see him very relaxed and comfortable with Kaylee (and in a way we'd only seen him before when he'd had a few too many mudders' milks.) It takes a while to unlearn habits, and part of the fun of Simon was getting to watch him do so. (Sort of like watching Wesley evolve on Angel}. I suspect the changes would have continued, had the show gone on.
As for his parents, I agree that they were stereotypical, though I suspect they are done that for story-telling reasons. To explain why they were not part of the Tam escape plan, why no effort was made to contact them now, and to heighten the effect of what Simon did to save his sister.
For the record, Zoid, I would't quite use the word "wealthy," but I definitely grew up upper middle class. My parents could not have loved my sister and me more or been more involved in our lives (and I occasionally wished, as a teenager especially, they'd be less involved). They are, simply put, the coolest parents I could ever have asked for, and I'm still in touch with them almost daily (and I'm 26).
Is Simon gay? I don't think so. I think (at least initially--don't know where he was headed) the word I would choose for him is almost "asexual." I don't think it's been a large part of his life, or, if it has, it's been in very structured, courtly ways (like the world of "Shindig"). He has trouble with Kaylee because he's used to women following the rules, and she doesn't. Which probably both attacts and scares him a little. Simon is also in a totally new world, worried about being a fugitive, and probably constantly pre-occupied with the care and well-being of his sister. That's not exactly the best mind-set for courting anyone.
Giving up his whole life to save his sister is, in my opinion, far far braver than anything we've seen from, say, Jayne. It may be a different kind of bravery than storming a skyplex (though, remember, he willingly took part in that, too, even if he couldn't shoot worth a darn), but that doesn't make it any less real or courageous.
The scene that sold me on Simon, though, was in "Trash." (Yes, one of the unaired episodes, which I did not see till I owned the DVD's. It took Simon a while to grow on me -- subtle characters can struggle to be noticed when Jaynes and Washes are on the scene -- not a criticismn of any of them, mind, just an observation). The scene with Jayne in the infirmary. Because confronting Jayne also took courage (because Jayne might have not been moving then, but he was gonna be up and about later), and because while I wouldn't have found fault with Simon if he threated Jayne with death or paralysis, it was so much cooler that he didn't.
Finally, in regards to what us ladies are looking for. I'm not going to trot out the old looks-aren't-important-it's-what's-inside line, because I think they are at least somewhat important. I will say this, though. I've been living either alone or with a female roommate for five years now. I can handle squashing bugs, climbing on chairs to hang pictures or reach the tall shelf, unclogging plumbing, and minor car repair. What I want, in a guy, is someone with a great sense of humor and someone who is my intellectual equal. Which, frankly, is far more Simon than Jayne.
I did, however, love the idea of "Queer Eye for the Firefly." And I suspect those Hawaiian shirts would be out of Wash's closet before the opening credits ended.
Delia
___________________________________________
ANYA: Don't be ridiculous. Martha Stewart isn't a demon. She's a witch.
XANDER:
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Quote:
Does anybody on this board, reading this thread, come from a wealthy family? Were your parents as blase about your well-being as Simon's parents are?
okay, first about this. i think that parents being detached from their children does not necessarily depend on the wealth of the family. my family was not wealthy and while my parents did an admirable job raising their children, they did put too much emphasis on the almighty dollar. this does not come from their desire for their children to maintain the family vault but rather that they wanted a better life for their children than they had and they decided that money was the way to do that. of course, as i have gotten older, i have realized that money cannot buy a lot of things (including happiness as many people would say). of course, money is nice to have, but it is not the center of the universe. in short, i think simon's parents are decent people (from the tiny bit we saw about them) who may not be the best parents, but they are not terrible, that is for sure. their emphasis is in the wrong place. they are almost like those smothering parents that have an all too perfect vision for the lives their children are supposed to live.
Quote:
Is he gay? It's been suggested hereabouts; but just because he's very pretty, fastidious and well-dressed doesn't make him, er, well maybe it does. But I'd guess he's het'ro-, as well as metro-sexual.
not even going to touch this.
Quote:
I mean given Kaylee's observed and confessed proclivities, I'm surprised she hasn't just jumped him.
okay. we all know kaylee is not too shy when it comes to things like this, but in all, she is a naive girl, i think everyone would agree. her infatuation with simon is probably something that she does not completely understand and it may even be the first time that she has been truly attracted to a man. that being said, i think her attitude towards simon borders on a high school girl's crush on the guy with the locker across the hall than it does any kind of lust.
my two cents. anyone have change for a dollar?
PS just had a thought. any possiblity that simon's parents are part of the group that is experimenting on river? or is that too conspiracy theory or x-files-ish?
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I think the critical "manliness" scene for Simon was in Ariel, when he dropped everything to save that patient from his incompetent doctor. The tragic part is that Kaylee wasn't there to see it. Heck, even Jayne seemed in awe (and it was enough to snap River into full lucidity for the "first" time).
Also, Zoid's post made me think of a perfect song for Simon:
Basket Case
by: Green Day
Do you have the time, to listen to me whine,
About nothing and everything all at once?
I am one of those
Melodramatic fools,
Neurotic to the bone
No doubt about it.
[ chorus ]
Sometimes I give myself the creeps.
Sometimes my mind plays tricks on me.
It all keeps adding up,
I think I'm cracking up.
Am I just paranoid,
Or am'I just stoned?
[ /chorus ]
I went to a shrink,
To analyze my dreams.
She says it's lack of sex that's bringing me down.
I went to a whore,
She said my life's a bore.
Just quit my whining 'cause it's bringing her down.
(chorus)
Grasping to control,
So I better hold on.
(chorus)
-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Ok, I have several problems with your line of thought, but I like that you're exploring the reasons behind the characters.
I think Simon is just innocent. I mean who on the ship is more innocent than him? He has no experience with the kind of life they're leading. He's just trying to do the right thing for his sister and along the way he's learned far more about the world than he thought he didn't know. Whoever said he grew up in another world hit the nail on the head. Think about if you were suddenly plucked up and put into a group of foreigners that you only partially understood. How would you react? Would you feel comfortable (and it's apparent that he doesn't feel comfortable for a while) and could you be yourself?
As for his parents, well, I don't know that they didn't care. I think they thought that Simon was making something out of nothing, that River wasn't in trouble and Simon was imagining things. Remember she was a trickster even before she went to school. Their parents probably saw her letters as jokes, not cries for help. They probably couldn't even conceive of someone creating a fake school to trap the intelligent elite. It's far-fetched, science fiction, inconceivable. As naive as Simon is, think about how people raised in that society must be.
As for Kaylee, it's different to have a fling than a relationship. And I think she wants a relationship with Simon, not just a fling. I don't think she cared about the guy in "Out of Gas" or at least she didn't care what he thought about her. She cares what Simon thinks about her. She's been around men like Jayne (well, maybe not quite like Jayne, but you get my drift) all her life. Simon is different. Remember how much she liked the society party in Shindig and the dress. Something about that life attracts her and maybe that's part of what attracts her to Simon. Maybe it's the thought that if someone like Simon, who has experienced all of that glitter and beauty, could find her desirable.
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I wouldn't think that Joss would have a gay character in Firefly, it would certainly change the sexual tension of the show. I don't think Simon is gay, I think he is trying to show he is 'uppercrust', not only is he uncomfortable around Kaylee but most of his social skills seem to be stunted.
I've speculated that his parents detachment from their blight is because Simon's father knew exactly what was happening to River and had sent her to the Academy as part of a deal with the Alliance.
"I ain't crazy and I've got papers to prove it"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
I think the critical "manliness" scene for Simon was in Ariel, when he dropped everything to save that patient from his incompetent doctor. The tragic part is that Kaylee wasn't there to see it. Heck, even Jayne seemed in awe (and it was enough to snap River into full lucidity for the "first" time).
(snipped)
I agree that this is the crucial scene for Simon re: 'manliness'. In Simon's world, being uptight and formal counted for everything. Remember: the most powerful businessman has the largest desk and the smallest briefcase.
When we see him arrive on Serenity with his mysterious box we know he is of an entirely different 'class' than the others around him. He is a gentleman, he is used to a life of ease. He has never slummed around for kicks, he has spent his time in other more socially-acceptable (to his parents) pursuits.
In Atherton's world, Simon would be utterly at ease and find no trouble competing with the men around him: he is eloquent, articulate, intelligent, and no obvious physical deformities. He carries himself with confidence.
Notice how he carries himself differently as he 'loosens up' in subsequent episodes. He still stands tall, but his presence is no longer commanding. With the 'regular folks' on Serenity, he is adrift; he isn't certain of the pecking order in this new life, and he certainly doesn't have an exact place within that order.
Look at the time he drugged Jayne: after Jayne was knocked out he admitted that Jayne was scaring him, and he hoped it was okay with everyone that he'd tranked Jayne to keep him from becoming a problem. In the world of his Ariel-style hospitals, Simon would never have needed to explain his actions, nor would he have defended those actions. On Serenity, he is smart enough to know that his doctor's arrogance isn't going to get him anywhere ... and even if he is doing the 'right thing', he made damn sure the people he was with understood *why* he did it.
I absolutely agree that Simon is a metrosexual. Again, in his world, careful grooming counts for a great deal. In Jaynes? Not so much. Even as he sheds his tie and loosens his top buttons, Simon is still struggling with a lifetime of behaviour habits ... those same habits that help each of us function in our respective worlds. Now that he's changed his society, so to speak, he has to learn all the cues and behavioural habits that everyone else has known since they were born.
In Firefly, both Simon and River are functioning as 'aliens'. It's just that Simon is a lot less alien to everyone than River.
And I agree that if Kaylee were simply looking for a quick screw, she'd have jumped Simon shortly after learning the girl in the box was his sister, not his concubine. But Kaylee is attracted to Simon in lots of different ways than she is used to: Simon is not overtly muscled like the 'original' Serenity mechanic ... he is not a hulking Jayne-man, nor is he an overly-practical man like Mal.
Simon, I think, is right to hold on to his own upbringing regarding treating Kaylee 'proper' because he likes her ... that it is even more important for him to do so now that he's in the Black. It would be different if he knew the 'rules' of the society he now lives in, but he doesn't ... so until that learning comes along, he has to approach Kaylee on the only terms he knows.
My $0.0074 (Canadian dollar is still worth less than US)
Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gunhand:
Gor are a series of really cheesy and mysogonistic (I never could spell that damn word) fantasy books from the '70s. Now I like my fantasy but Gor is...cheeeeeese. And not the good sort of cheese, it's the sort of cheese that makes you want to hit yourself with a hammer.
The guy that wrote them appearently had a leather fetish and thought he was Manly. Of course Robert E. Howard could have kicked his ass and was less of a momma's boy.
Zoid, I was kidding about the Gor stuff.
But somewhat OT ... yeah, Gor is for me the most bizarre series ever printed. The writing style is quite freaky ... for those unfamiliar with the style I *don't* recommend the books, but there is a gorgeous parody of his works here:
http://www.sexuality.org/l/bdsm/housegor.html
(And yes, the parody is rated "G" ... but the books aren't).
I'm not familiar with Robert Howard??? so I'll take your word on it that he could kick the Gor writer-guy's butt.
Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.
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Robert Howard created Conan (among other great pulp works) -- just so you know
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Robert E. Howard wrote the Conan (original and far superior to the later writers who did pastiches about Conan) books. He also wrote the tales of Solomon Kane, witch hunter. Pulpy goodness.
But he also had asthma, was extremely anti-social (to the point of being terrified of people) and lived with his mother until he died in his early '30s. But he was also, oddly enough a fairly well ranked amateur boxer.
Strange world, but I still maintain he was more well adjusted and could kick the Gor guy's butt.
I definately wouldn't recommend the Gor books one iota, unless you were reading them as an excercise in how to not write fantasy. Well at least if you ever wanted a date again and/or didn't mind having people throw rotten vegetables at you on a daily basis. On the other hand if you've never read the original Conan books and just know him from Ahnald then you really should, he was a much different and deeper character in Howard's vision and I highly, highly recommend them.
Incidentally he was also a pen-pal, friend and collaborator with H.P. Lovecraft as well, they shared a lot of theories on the Uncaring Universe and his Conan stories have some subtle (and at times appearent) Cthulhu Mythos themes/vibes/references in them.
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"
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Still laughing at Queer Eye for Firefly, btw. Zoid, you're a genius.
Gunhand wrote:
Quote:
Women (for the most part) ain't as dumb as men, we'll go for just the pretty looks but for a woman it has to be more than that. Women's Lib aside there isn't a woman I've known (and I've known lots...coughcough) that doesn't like a man that can do things, and who is willing to balance that gentlemanly opening of doors thing with the ability to go completely batshit crazy caveman when the situation calls for it.
Yeah prettyboy looks help, and smarts, and a sense of humor but if you're less manly than she is well...you ain't going to get her respect let alone a foundation to build something else on. Women expect a man to be a man, and if he isn't well then no ammount of pretty looks or fat wallet is going to make her keep ya around.
Respectful, but vehement, disagreement.
Disclaimer: I'm obviously not claiming to speak for all/most women here, because IMNSHO your gender doesn't determine your attitude or outlook on such matters. Which is kinda my post in a nutshell, so if you want to skip the rest, feel free.
Personally, I think the manliness/effeminacy distinction is a nonsensical, socially-imposed piece of go-se that screws up more people than it helps. What is a man? It's anything a man *can* be, surely. There are no universally-applicable standards for this, any more than there are for what makes a woman. The Romans thought that wearing short tunics (i.e. skirts) was the ultimate expression of manhood (showing off one's legs), and trousers were a barbarian effeminacy. Ideals change. People are infinitely diverse.
Yes, some women I know *do* like the conventional 'manly' man type; plenty more (including, emphatically, myself) would prize braincells and conversational ability over unfeasibly large upper arms any day of the week. I don't want someone to hide behind. I'm quite capable of wiring plugs for myself. I want an intellectual challenge, not someone to put up shelves & squash spiders for me. Strength of character doesn't just consist in physical strength; indeed, quite often it's entirely the opposite.
Simon is unlike the other guys on the crew because they've all lived very different lives. He's not inadequate, or less 'manly' than they just because his education never required him to learn to shoot first and ask questions later. He may not be eminently suited to life aboard Serenity, but by the same token nothing in his life has prepared him to be so in the way that Jayne's or Mal's (or Zoe's) did. He has other strengths. It doesn't make him weak (as Mal observes at the end of of 'Serenity').
Incidentally, I'd be interested to know where Wash fits into your manliness schema... seems to me that the attraction to him is all about his humour, his loyalty and his caring. Yeah, so he fires a gun on occasion, but then so does his wife. It's not about Wash reclaiming some lost 'manly' side of himself when he goes back in to help Mal in 'War Stories' - it's about a newfound devotion to his captain, and about the things that sometimes *people* (not just men) have to do, when pushed.
While I'm here, I'm also a little surprised at how many people are quite happy to just label Simon 'socially incapable'. Yes, so he makes numerous stupid mistakes, but c'mon: he's *shy*, people! And completely out of his depth, to boot. His sister's a raving lunatic, half the crew are borderline hostile to him, and he's probably never even been off-planet before. He's a confused young man adrift in a world completely beyond anything he imagine.
Is, say, Mal any more capable of speaking to Inara in a meaningful manner? His confrontational banter is just as much a cover for what he doesn't feel able to say as are Simon's verbal fumbles. So? What else are Joss Whedon's series *about*, if not articulate people being reduced to babbling wrecks in the face of people they, y'know, um, *like*?
Sorry if some of that came across overly ranting, it's been a long day.
/ pure inte
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Well I think a lot of y'all (womenfolk) tended to concentrate on my "manly" bit a bit more than I intended. I said that humor, and brains and all that were as important as manliness, but that the manliness has to be there too as well. Without any manly qualities then what do you have? A funny guy that is afraid of his own shadow or a smart guy who can think up grand schemes yet can't ever act on them.
My point is hard to get across because I know what I mean in my head, and I've had many conversations on this subject with women on it and they can see my point when I talk to them about it. Guess I'm not so good at getting it across on a board. But darn it, I have to try.
Okay let's forget about Simon for a minute, and just think about the generic "guy". Generic Guy may have come from money or may not (personally I think that means diddly when it comes to personality and if it does it's usually bad and comes from the extremes of money) and he may have been born with an abundance of brains. So Generic Guy is really smart, so smart in fact that he tells people how smart he is. He's so smart that he can't even relate to people because he either thinks he's superior to them, or he is so wrapped up in thinking he just can't relate to anyone else. Is that a good thing? Generally no.
Take Generic Guy B, he was a little guy and got picked on in school, or his parents were both comedians, or God thought he had a funny nose, whatever; so he grows up never taking life seriously because anytime he has a problem dealing with life he turns it into a joke. He's a funny guy, can make anyone laugh at any time. But nothing is ever serious and everything's a game to him and he just gets through life being the clown. Is that a good thing? Generally no.
Take Generic Guy C, he works out, for some reason he strives to build himself up to be as strong, fast, agile as he can be. He probably did sports and was good at them. He sees life as a challenge and everything is a test to see if he can overcome it. If you get attacked by 88 Yakuza he's the guy you want fighting on your side and he'll probably be able to kick their asses. But no matter what everything to him is a challenge and something to be rolled over. Is that a good thing? Generally no.
Yeah I was being absolutist, which brings me to the point that a man has to be all of them as best he can, Generic Guy and his brothers B and C. You can't just get by on brains alone, or humor alone, or strength alone, if you do that you'll never succeed at anything. I'm not even talking about with women here, I'm talking about life. But I know some people who do throw everything behind one or the other, some people aren't strong enough but may be smart and funny enough to overcome that, or may not be smart but are strong and funny enough to overcome that, etc. in all the permutations.
Getting back to Simon now, I was harsh, and I admit it. But even though he's smart he isn't strong. I'm not talking Jayne or Book strong where he should be lifting weights or eating raw meat around a fire he built in the hold. I mean that when action is called for he tries to think his way out of it. He can do action but to me it seems that it is distasteful to him, not talking about violence specifically, I'm talking about action. As in acting, he'd rather spend the day thinking of 201 plans of action for a problem rather than just picking something and doing it. Yes he went on the Skyplex, yes he doped Jayne, but those were things that were either instigated by someone else (the acting part) or he knew he'd have backup on. With Kaylee no one is there to back him up, so he can't really act.
I'm probably digging myself deeper into a hole, but there is something about Simon that reminds me of Hugh Grant like I said before. The boy needs to DO something all on his own without going into Greek Tragedy levels of overthinking on it. "Doing" things doesn't come naturally to him and that's a serious flaw to me, which doesn't mean I don't like him as a character, flawed ones are good to watch,
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Gunhand,
Let me know if I've got this right. Your argument is that Simon is not a "man of action" because he thinks before he acts and tries to come up with the best plan before rushing to do something. As opposed to doing the wrong thing, so that he can say he's doing rather than thinking, and is therefore a man of action. How, precisely, is that a character flaw?
We've seen him act when he needs to -- attacking Dobson, attacking Jubal. Negotiating before he saves Kaylee. Fighting with the townfolk about his sister being a witch. Tending to the man in cardiac arrest in the hospital. There's also the whole breaking his sister out of the Academy. If all he ever did was think, he'd have realized that saving her and getting away with it was improbable, and he'd be somewhere still sitting around planning ways to save her and talking himself out of them.
Bear in mind, too, that Simon is not the person who gets to decide to take action. That's Mal, the captain.
Also, I don't buy your argument that the love of a wife is superior in any way to the love of a sister. A wife (or a husband) is, at least for the purposes of this discussion, someone you chose, someone you have things in common with. A sister is a person you're connected to through the randomness of DNA. You may love her, but you may not necessarily like her very much, and to give up everything for her, including very likely your chance to choose someone to spend your life, that's a sacrifice. Simon's love for his sister is not something that should be discounted because he didn't have to work to get her. If anything, loving her is more impressive than loving a wife, because he had no say at all in who his sister is.
And for the record, I've got a sister, got almost nothing in common with her, and love her dearly. I might be able to give my whole life for her, but I suspect that I'd be petty enough to remind her of the fact -- frequently.
Delia
___________________________________________
ANYA: Don't be ridiculous. Martha Stewart isn't a demon. She's a witch.
XANDER: Please, she-- Really?
ANYA: Of course. Nobody could do that much decoupage without calling on the powers of darkness.
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Not quite Delia, thinking before you act is a good thing, if you don't think at all then you're Jayne which is usually a bad thing. I think he overthinks, that's what I was meaning.
I'm just not able to get what I mean across at all, so I'm just gonna bow out of here and have to use the "guy thing" that we get as a very weak version of women's intuition. It's like art, I know it when I see it and Simon just doesn't have it. For me at least.
I just can't get what I mean across for the trying, so I'm going to stop trying.
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"
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Gunhand:
I see what you're saying, but I would still spin things in a different direction. I agree that there's a need to combine action with ability, that you never get anywhere if you aren't prepared/able to follow through on your big ideas... but I fail to see how this applies more to a man than to a woman. Decisiveness, pragmatism and conviction are all strengths of character: but strengths of character for people *in general*, not just for men. Women, too, get bugger all if they sit back and dream rather than take action. It's just life.
To get back on topic, I agree that Simon is markedly hesitant through much of the series. However, I think he is - as some have pointed out - improving on this score towards the end. Like the way he deals with Jayne's betrayal: Simon may well have agonised offscreen over what to do, but in the end he knew that he had to take action, to try to reduce the chances of it happening again. So he did.
I suspect, again, that a lot of this is a question of context: in his own environment, the hospital in 'Ariel', Simon displays absolute single-mindedness and no hesitation before acting - as when he saves the patient's life and upbraids his doctor for incompetence. It's just a question of what you're used to and feel comfortable with. Look at Mal, Zoe and Jayne rehearsing their lines in the same episode - people we're used to seeing as models of calm and competence become nervous and extremely uncertain when faced with something outside of their accustomed way of doing things. It's very human. When they must take action with words rather than guns they're just as out of their depth as Simon is in the cargo bay with the Fed in 'Serenity'.
By the same token, check out Jayne's fumbling, uncertain efforts to help Kaylee in the engine room in 'Serenity'. Jayne is pretty much Mr Decisive in the rest of his normal life (if mainly because he doesn't have too many braincells to slow down his reactions), but ask him to do something he's never done before and of course he's hesitant.
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Basically a guy has to have all of those parts in some measure, and with Simon...well just like it's silly for us to be saying "what women want" when we aren't women, there's a guy thing where we see a guy and we either respect him as a man, or don't.
Maybe I'm getting pedantic now, but what I'm saying is that a guy's opinion on a guy, or a whole society of guys' opinions on guys, are not prescriptive (likewise women's views on women, if the distinction matters). These things are just one society's current categories, not absolutes, and 500 miles in any direction you're likely to find quite different opinions (particularly if said 500 miles lands you at the bottom of the ocean
). If you can't know what a woman wants because you aren't a woman, how can you know what a man wants who comes from a different background, a different religion, a different state?/ pure intentions, juxtaposed /
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Okay, I've got a couple thoughts about this (actually, I've got LOTS of thoughts - I'm a true introvert - I'm always thinking)
Well, Gunhand, please correct me if I'm wrong, but by 'manly' man, I don't think you mean a guy who squashes bugs and unstops drains, right? And at the risk of giving you too much credit, I doubt you are equating a man's 'manliness' with his muscle mass. What I envisioned when you described 'manly' man had to do with what he does in dicey situations.
For example, I was at a concert once, right up front. Thirty minutes into the show, the mosh pit (directly behind my friend and I) degenerated into a brawl. I couldn't get out safely and I'm a pretty small female (5 foot tall). My friend - a not-too-big guy - stood behind me and braced his hands on the barrier in front of me and protected me from the crazed brawling maniacs that were slamming into us. He didn't "go batshit crazy caveman", but he did physically protect me when I was threatened and I think that is very 'manly'.
To be perfectly honest though, I admire that trait in everyone, male or female. Because of what I do for a living (ICU nurse), I am surrounded by many men and women who would more likely run into a burning building to help others than out of it.
Don't get me wrong. I can - and do - take care of myself. But Gunhand is right IMO in that not only will I do what needs to be done if my loved ones are threatened, but I would expect the man in my life to do so, too.
Now, having said that, I think Simon IS one of those people. He certainly doesn't do it with skill or finess, but he DOES do whatever he can to protect River. He engaged Jubal mentally and eventually physically (unarmed, no less) - even taking a bullet, for his sister. And I can't remeber which episode it was in, but he jumped from the catwalk onto ... was it Dobson in Serentiy? maybe ... to protect her. He is a man who can, and does "do things ... when the situation calls for it".
I agree, whole-heartedly, with you, Nic' about strength of character and intellectual challenge being of utmost import in a man. I have dated some wonderful men who really struggled with their inability to measure up to the conventional 'manliness standard'. They couldn't benchpress me (I did date one guy that could do that, but the thrill lasted about 30 seconds, and so did he). They didn't like majorleague baseball or football. But they were there for me when I needed them, as I was for them.
I also think that you make a good point, Nic', about Simon's social skills in this very unfamiliar environment. I can imagine Simon on Osiris. I think he was much smoother and probably very charming in the social situaions where he knew the 'rules' and what to expect. I do think that he was very focused on medicine, but believe me, even the quiet, serious young med staff get out and have a good time pretty regularly.
Simon is struggling to adapt to a totally foreign environment and that makes him akward and unsure at times, but he is meeting the challenges that come his way. He is becoming more self-assured and learning when to use physical means to confront problems. I think he is very 'manly'.
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Quote:
Cybersnark wrote:
Monday, May 31, 2004 03:33
I think the critical "manliness" scene for Simon was in Ariel, when he dropped everything to save that patient from his incompetent doctor. The tragic part is that Kaylee wasn't there to see it. Heck, even Jayne seemed in awe (and it was enough to snap River into full lucidity for the "first" time).
You make a great point. On the Serenity Simon is out of his element. I'm sure if "he had the time and the inclination" he could have swept any female in the immediate vicinity off her feet.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gunhand:
It's like art, I know it when I see it and Simon just doesn't have it.
Funny, I've usually heard that line about knowing something when you see it used about pornography . . . .
Sorry if I'm misreading you. Overthinking I will agree is a fault. But not one that I think Simon has.
I say we blame it all on Zoid. He started all this, and then he disappeared.
Delia
___________________________________________
ANYA: Don't be ridiculous. Martha Stewart isn't a demon. She's a witch.
XANDER: Please, she-- Really?
ANYA: Of course. Nobody could do that much decoupage without calling on the powers of darkness.
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Greetings, Fellow Browncoats!
It might've been interesting for Joss to have taken Simon's parents the other direction, instead of what must be seen as the prototypical, 'Mommy and Daddy don't really love us, all they care about is money' angle. Does anybody on this board, reading this thread, come from a wealthy family? Were your parents as blase about your well-being as Simon's parents are? I come from dirt-poor types, so I have no first hand knowledge; but, I am acquainted with a doctor whose only daughter was killed in an automobile accident. Let's just say that it made of him a shell of his former self. Based on that observation, I presume there are some wealthy parents of truly beloved children, and it would've been interesting to see them sacrifice their fortune and social standing (and maybe their lives) in an attempt to save River.
I'm not sure that Simon and River's parents were so concerned with money per se as they were with conforming to societal expectations/not rocking the boat. As if their view was that if the goverment had done experments on River, well then they should accept that as right and necessary. The goverment must have had good reasons and who were they to question that. They didn't approve of the way Simon was willing to kick and scream and get arrested and sacrifice his prestigous career. That was embarrassing.
It's odd, but I've known people who actually think like that.
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Is he gay? It's been suggested hereabouts; but just because he's very pretty, fastidious and well-dressed doesn't make him, er, well maybe it does. But I'd guess he's het'ro-, as well as metro-sexual.
I don't think so. Clearly he's attracted to Kaylee. He wouldn't be so clumsy and tongue-tied around her if he weren't interested in girls.
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I've played the 'fantasy episode' game before, and here's another: "Queer Eye for the Firefly". Simon analyzes and does makeovers for the other male cast members. SIMON: "Shepherd Book, I love the way your ensemble is coordinated in blacks and grays -- the little white choker is dreamy -- but your hair? Puh-leeze, girl! I've got two words for you: Oh, My, God!". Or how about, SIMON: "Jayne? Grrreat name! That's as in 'Mansfield', right? You know, she lost her head... And so will the girls when they see you in your new outfit! I've chosen a much tighter tee-shirt, chopped at the midriff to show off your scrumptious pecs and tummy, and some really tight shorts to accentuate your tushy. The combat boots can stay, et voila! An all-new Jayne that does his namesake proud. Grrrr!" (Okay, so maybe I do that too well) Point is, at some point JW is either gonna have to rough that boy up some, or 'out' him.
That would be hillarious!
. But JW already *has* roughed Simon up a bit, at least I think so.Quote:
Whenever I think of Kaylee's infatuation with Simon, two words immediately come to my mind: "Sure thing", and "Round heels", and "Slam dunk", and "Doesn't he like girls?" (Alright, that was more than two words, but they were in groups of two, um, for the most part) Seriously, how has he managed to queer that deal (pun intended)?
1. He's shy. 2. He doesn't want to "take advantage" of Kaylee, but isn't sure whether he's in a position to have a relationship with her (given that he's on the run and has sole responsibility for his nutty sister).
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Here endeth the long-winded, convoluted and twisted Part One of however-many-y'all-can-stand-plus-one parts. To all the Simon-loving girls hereabouts: nyah-nyah-ny-nyah-nyah! All us manly men (you know, those of us who are so manly that females are intimidated by our rugged manliness, and so, shun us as though we were filthy, hairy beasts... which, okay we are), we all know that deep down y'all want real men like us, not dandies with dainty features, soft hands and silk blouses like Simon. Am I right guys? (Hears crickets chirping,NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Hey zoid, nice to see one of your long involved posts again....still no conspiracy theory though:P
Anyway, not going to get into the manliness debate actually (although i want a guy w/ muscles and the ability for conversation for the record!), but reading through these posts, something occured to me - Simon's character is actually playing a very stereotyped Western Role -- bear w/ me if you've not been a Western fan. His character is seen mostly in series but also in the occasional movie - the rich journalist/banker/whatever that finds himself on the frontier and in an unknown land. He is for all intents and purposes a foreigner...and as such his intentions and manners seem foreign to the natives. So his attitude towards Kaylee and the crew is very understandable in that respect.
I'd also agree w/ those that point out that Simon does perform "manly" acts throughout the series .. most are in relation to his sister, but i think that is mostly because the one person on the ship he has the closest ties to is her. all the other episodes (especially Hero of Canton), he is more out of his element than he is on the ship..and therefore stands out. HOwever, even in Hero, he doesn't behave poorly..i don't recall too much unmanly groveling while he was facing possible death at the hands of a one-eyed psychopath.
In all, I think it would be interesting to see what happens w/ the development of his character. Thinking back, hated Wesley at first but the past 2 seasons have loved the dark places that Joss and co. took him. I think Simon has that potential more than maybe even the rest of the crew for the simple reason that he has never had to face the darker emotions..his society has protected him from that.
Wow, still amazed that I didn't automatically spot simon straight off as such a stereotype. Either I was too dazzled by everything else or Joss did an incredible job...probably a little bit of both.
The Strawberry Monkey
http://p221.ezboard.com/bfireflyfanficawards
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Delia wrote:
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...I say we blame it all on Zoid. He started all this, and then he disappeared...
Heh-heh, yes, I did. But then again, I warned in that opening post that I had plans (actually, it's more accurate to say my wife had plans) for the whole day today. So, it's not so much a case of desertion, as it is abduction...
That said, I've read all your wonderful posts, and I'm gratified to see that folks have taken a new tack in this discussion of Simon, instead of just rehashing what we've already said in previous discussions (as I feared might be the case). Bravo!
To Gunhand, I feel your pain, my brother. I've left you here all day, surrounded by females and trying to explain the sense men have for other men's essential natures. It's kinda like trying to describe 'red' to a blind man, ain't it? But, never fear. We have powerful allies in this quest: Analogical thinking and empathy. It may still be a hopeless quest -- especially since there seems to be something about Sean Maher or the character he portrays that evokes feminine protectiveness -- but, I'm gonna give it the good old La Manchan try.
What I believe Gunny was trying to say -- and as I said earlier -- is that there's just something not quite right about Simon. Not that he's a villain, or a coward, or a prissy lilly-liver. He's just not hitting on all 8 cylinders, as my Daddy used to say. This is a guy thing. We can tell when a man ain't quite right.
So here's the analogy. Women can tell when other women are being fakes. Men may say -- and sometimes correctly -- that those women are just jealous; but, usually it's because those women have an insight into other women's behavior, which men do not and cannot have.
And here's the part where empathy parlays the analogy: Female readers, if you have gotten a sense of what Gunny was talking about now, and can empathize based on your own experience of 'that feeling' about other women -- the ones you can trust, the ones you can tell secrets to, and vice versa -- apply that now and walk a mile in a guy's moccasins.
I'd trust Malcolm Reynolds to lead me into the gates of Hell; not just because Firefly needs me to in order to work as a premise for 'suspension of disbelief', but because Fillion's portrayal of Whedon's exceptionally drawn character have created that 'feeling' in me. I have a similar 'feeling' for Book; he's a man of integrity and substance. The fact that some hereabouts think it's possible that he's an evildoer baffles me.
Wash is all man because he's a total loony, but he's honest about it (and every thing else) and most importantly from the manhood argument, he's honest with himself about it. I 'feel' that Wash would never tell a lie, not even a little falsehood to cover his ego when he miscalculates ("Well, maybe I should just go do that then!"). Wash is my personal hero, because his sense of playful irony and steadfast fidelity to his wife resonate in my own personality. Jayne -- as I've said before -- is the human equivalent to a German Shepherd. Great in a fight because he won't think before he wades in, but you don't want to leave your steak where he can get at it the first time you take your eye off of him either.
Simon needs to get laid. Sorry, that's just how I 'feel'. I've read all your well-thought and -written justifications: he's too gentlemanly (zoid recalls many boorish or insensitive remarks made by Simon and discards the notion that those remarks might be considered chivalrous in different social contexts); he would probably give Atherton Wing a run for his money socially if he were in his native 'high society' element (zoid thinks, no, Atherton Wing can charm a girl as sophisticated as Inara out of her knickers, while in the process of being a boor; Simon can't even talk Kaylee out of hers, and she's not wearing any). I don't doubt that many attractive young debutantes have approached Simon, with thoughts of landing a young doctor; but at some point, he's going to open his mouth and say the most assi
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"You can have my hawaiian shirts when you pry them from my cold, lifeless, er, yes Zoe?"
"Please get rid of the shirts, Dear."
"Yes, Lamby-toes." Hurt look.
"Look, you can keep the dinosaurs..."
BTW, excellent post, Zoid. Xiexie!
Vince the alien zookeeper
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Zoid, thank God you're back, I was getting worried I was going to wind up corpsified.
I think if we had a seminar, and I could just talk I may be able to get what I mean across, words on a screen just ain't doing it for me today for some reason.
Thanks for the backup on the just knowing though. It isn't something logical or anything it's just a feeling I got about the guy. It's kinda like women's intuition but the opposite, more...visceral maybe?
And to take it a step further I'm right with you with Mal and Book, loyal guys who'd be right there for me, same with Wash. When I think of these characters one of the things I think to myself is,"Could this guy be my friend?" And out of all of the male cast Simon is the one who makes me say no. All based on a feeling.
Hell Jayne could even be my friend, but I'd definately be waiting for the Interesting Day. Hell a drag down, no holds barred fight with Jayne would be something I'd almost look forward to, because it'd be Interesting. Punch me, stab me, drag me through the mud but for Gods' sake don't bore me. Same with Badger, Badger could be my friend too, but I'd always be waiting to see what he pulled from under that hat of his.
Simon though, he'd be mid-speach and I'd be saying,"Would you just shut the 
up already?" or if I was feeling generous use the old stand by,"Do something." The thing is he reminds me of a friend of a friend, and I get the same "vibe" from that guy. He has the same attitude, same mannerisms and same self-important streak in him. I can handle being around him (via our common friend) for about an hour and then I have to get away. Any longer and...well, see the above sampled dialog.
Okay now I'm running back to my bunker again, I'll get the drinks ready by the time you have to exfiltrate yourownself Zoid.
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
In a related way, perhaps one or more female writers would give their 'feelings' about the essential nature of the female characters on the show (to include YoSaffBridge and Nandi), similar to the way I did the guys? Which ones do you consider trustworthy with your boyfriend/husband? Which would you most likely tell your darkest secrets to, without fear of them becoming public knowledge? Which is the most attractive, as opposed to the most pretty? That kind of thing, but not necessarity limited to a specific thing. I don't know about Gunhand, but I'd be very interested in y'all's 'inside scoop' on them.
Ask and ye shall receive. Or at the very least, I'll do my best.
Who would I trust with a husband/boyfriend? A little difficult, because I wouldn't want a husband I didn't trust, nevermind who he was with. But in the interest of entering into the spirit of the question . . . Zoe, without a doubt. Zoe does not strike me as the type to make a move on another woman's husband. (Kill him, yes, seduce him, no.) She's got too strong a concept of loyalty, and she'd never do that to Wash. They might fight, and they might have all sorts of problems, but I can't see her ever cheating on Wash, at least not in a sex sort of way. (I can envision a situation in which, if Wash and Zoe's marriage is crumbling, her turning to Mal for more emotional support, which I think Wash could view as "cheating." But I'm getting way off topic.)
I would most likely trust Kaylee, assuming she knew he was "taken." Otherwise, I think she'd be flirting in her oh-so-adorable way. Not Inara or Nandi. I suspect they take married clients, without asking too many questions. YoSafBridge I would not trust with a husband, a boyfriend, or a pet rock.
River's a bit a mystery, but I would probably trust her with my husband. For one thing, I have what I call the milk-and-cookies response to River, which means my reaction to her is to want to take her home, feed her milk and cookies, and make everything okay, an almost maternal response. (I tend to have that reaction to anyone I see playing Hamlet, too.) So I'd trust her with a husband, since I wouldn't see her as a rival. As for deep dark secrets, I would trust River EXCEPT that I'd be worried about what might come spilling out of her mouth while she was out of her head. Although River would probably already know them all, mind-reading genius that she is. I don't know how relaxed I'd ever be around River, she's too unpredictable.
Inara I would tell almost anything. Inara is a stay-up-all-night-gossiping kind of person. Though I suspect you'd do most of the talking, as Companions don't kiss and tell. (Still, she might share her views on non-clients, like the rest of the crew.) I'd be curious to see Inara in a girl friend sort of situation -- shoes off, curled up on her couch, sipping tea and giggling. I think she'd be a lot of fun.
I wouldn't quite go to Kaylee. She's too open, she doesn't have secrets (that we know of) and so I'm not sure how good she's be at keeping them. As for Zoe, I suspect she could keep a secret till Hell froze over, but I can't quite see myself ever choosing to confide in her in the first place. She's not a "girl's girl," and I'd be worried that she'd find my secrets boring or trivial, and that they would somehow diminish me in her eyes. Zoe is one I would least be myself around; I'd be the most concerned about how she saw me.
Nandi I'm not sure on, and again, I wouldn't trust Saffron with the latest news off the Cortex, let alone anything I was trying to keep private.
Were I choosing a friend from among the Firefly cast, it would most likely be Inara (see above on deep dark secrets). If I had a problem I wanted solved, I'd go to Zoe. She strikes me as the practical one, who is going to find a solution without wasting time, without tears, and without any fuss. If I had a problem and wanted sympathy about it (and sometimes, women don't want a solution, we just want to vent, which
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Quote:
Zoid says: Women can tell when other women are being fakes. Men may say -- and sometimes correctly --
Hmm..not sure I agree w/ you on all that 100% but let's test that and everyone give their impression of the whole crew. As a lady who admits she can't read others well period, I'm just gonna jump at the guys b4 making a fool of myself w/ the womenfolk.
Mal--if I met him on the street or a bar, wouldn't trust him: he's enough of a smooth talker and charismatic enough that I might suspect I was being played. Granted, the show doesn't indicate he is, but I'm talking first impressions.
Wash--Can I just say tries too hard? Dated too many guys like this and it just grates. However, would definitely trust as a friend after a time and reminds me of alot of my guy friends.
Jayne--if I may, typical stereotyped man. Don't know how much else to say to it other than i think if you were in a relationship w/ him, he'd probably be as faithful as that means to his mind, but as a friend, not sure i'd trust him 100%
Simon--uptight, science nerd, not comfortable around girls, Can I say i know too many men like this? Secret is to get them to see you as a sis and all is fine. Course, they cross the line and it turns creepifying, but well...
Book--again, most likely trust him at least how we see him in the episodes.
Okay, womenfolk....
Zoe--has alot of the characteristics of most of my friends and really appreciate the nononsense ness of her character. Definitely would be my choice for trustworthiness and advice. If I got to that point, would be the one i'd prefer to hang out w/ and all the rest. And yes, I'd trust my husband/bf around her (although gotta say, that's a question that well if i'm worried about it, i don't know how long they'd stay my s.o.!)
Kaylee--okay, she really grates on me at times, but she's sweet, and she's honest..those are my two main qualifications for women friends. don't know that i'd trust her w/ secrets (strikes me as the big mouth type) but still.
River--well, assuming she didn't try to kill me we'd be peachy keen.
Inara--would definitely take me a while to warm up to her. Comes across as less than genuine at times and I sincerely dislike the game playing woman...not for a sincere good friend anyway.
Saffron--yeah right..wouldn't trust her w/ my address..be cleaned out w/in a jiff.
Nandi--actually like her better than inara..tells it straight. Strikes me alot like a more feminine Zoe in a way.
Anyways, that's my two cents. Course, qualified by the fact that I admit one hundred percent to being a bad judge of people off of first impressions.
The Strawberry Monkey
http://p221.ezboard.com/bfireflyfanficawards
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Delia wrote:
Quote:
Is that what you had in mind, Zoid?
Delia
P.S. I like the last quote. Are you still planning to give us a DVD Commentary-style post on them all next week?
Yes, yes, yes! (zoid does happy dance) Thank you so much, Mistress of the Tomes! What fascinates me most about so many of these characters is how men and women can see them so differently and yet still have a kind of baseline feeling for them that crosses even the gender barrier.
For instance, while Gunhand and I both pretty much agree in our assessments of Jayne and Simon, he states that he doesn't like or couldn't befriend Simon, but that he could Jayne. I'm exactly the opposite. I could be friends with Simon because -- even though he can't quite seem to get out of his own way, except in an OR -- he is honest and loyal and well-intentioned. As an older guy, I see his great weakness is not one of character, so much as one of inexperience. I think he'd clear up nicely if he got some 'experience', as Jimi put it.
Jayne, on the other hand, is a character I can see myself pal-ing around with, but never trusting enough to be a friend. It should be noted that I'm talking about Jayne, not Adam Baldwin whose posts I've read over on the OB. While I generally disagree with trading barbs on political topics, camouflaged by Internet anonymity, I can't say that I substantively disagree with his observations. He seems -- from this incomplete and myopic viewpoint -- like a down-to-earth and fun guy, a guy I'd like to sit in a quiet bar with and shoot the sh*t. But Jayne? He cheats at cards and just about everything else. In real life, I don't see myself confidentially associated with someone so weak of character. Oddly, even though I 'feel' he's a man by definition in a way Simon is not, I'd trust the boy Simon a lot sooner than I would the man they call Jayne.
Again, thank you for your responses, Delia. I am fascinated by how the female mind works, and the subtle and not-so-subtle differences between that process and the process of male mental conception. You have given me a valued bit of data toward unraveling more of that mystery.
I will not take strong exception to the notion that culture defines gender roles. I will however opine that males and females are distinguishable beyond cultural delineations, thus: Females of our species are physiologically influenced by estrogen, probably as strongly as males are influenced by testosterone. Too much testosterone in a male makes him aggressive and unreliable. Boxers abstain from sex because they know it makes them meaner than snakes. Prolonged abstention from sex for males can have the reverse effect and render a man uncertain and docile (some escapees from religious cults in the US which bar male acolytes from engaging in sex have reported that their beards stopped growing).
Think of it as a drug addiction: Estrogen for females, testosterone for males. Other physiological differences -- only siring offspring vs. having to bear them for nine months and then having to care for them for an extended period of time -- have hardwired male and female perceptions and thought processes differently as well. Not so much "Women Are From Venus, Men Are From Mars", as it is just a case that men are predisposed to violence, while women are wired for caregiving.
Lastly, yes, I will be posting a very brief illumination of what I was driving at with the 'future quotes' next week sometime. Frankly, I was kinda dreading the response to this last one by River; but thus far, I could hear a pin drop. Now, I'm confused...
Respectfully,
zoid
_________________________________________________
"I knew a man once. History will never recall him, or what he gave to make us free. That's the way he wanted it. But as long as I live I'll remember, and he'll never truly die."
- River, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
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Disclaimer: I am a girl.
What I see when I see Simon (and Jayne and to a certain extent, Wash) is a boy. When I see the Captain or Book, I see men. Not "manly men doing manly things in manly ways with other manly men" but adults. I think Simon has the potential to grow up (and Wash to finish becoming an adult--remember Dr. Who: Just because I'm an adult doesn't mean I can't act childish.) but I'm not sure that Jayne does.
As for the women... I personally relate more to and would rather be friends with the Zoe character than any of the other women. Kaylee is just too perky; she'd drive me insane inside a week. Inara would be someone I'd envy, I think, because she's a lot of things I'm not. River... I don't know how I'd characterize her, since who she is now is probably not her real persona. But she could be interesting to hang out with.
All my life I wanted to be somebody. I guess I should have been more specific.
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Zoid, I can see the opposite way we'd view Simon and Jayne. I can even see your point, and like I said I wouldn't trust Jayne as far as I could throw him...so maybe just maybe 6 feet of trust if I was allowed to use some of my more underhanded and dirty throwing styles.
Now Simon on the other hand, he grates on me. But I'll concede after he grows up some he may be tollerable. So I suggest a mentor for Simon, I'm thinking a dual Mentoring program. Book on one hand to get him to realise he's allowed to have emotions even if he's supposedly smart (3% and all, not sure how smart that makes him <-- sarcasm) and for his other mentor...Nope not Jayne! Ha! Caught y'all didn't I? Nope for his other mentor. Khan. Yeah you read that right, Khan. The Man. Now I don't care for Star Trek much but that man is just what Simon needs to pep himself up some. Do a Khan-Book mentor session with him for a couple years and I may just be able to have a full conversation with him without threating to do something painful to him.
Now for my part about the women...Honestly I wouldn't want to marry any of them on the show. What? Have I lost my mind? Nope. A bit of grappling, sure, but none of them are my type enough to make me want to marry them. Maybe Zoe, but she'd have to lighten up a little bit, or Kaylee but she'd have to serious up a little bit. Inara would drive me to drink and River would drive me to drink more and then kill me with her mind. Maybe Saffron, don't make faces, because she's a damn fine looking woman and...I know I can't trust her as far as I can throw her, which isn't all that bad when you know it up front, date yeah, marry nope.
And that's my generally useless further contribution to the thread.
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"
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Still not convinced that it's something intrinsic to our genders that enables us to give unique perspectives on the characters - much more about our personal experience and the types of people we tend to spend time with, I would've thought. It doesn't take a girl to spot that YoSafBrig is trouble, or a guy to see Jayne's coyote morals. But, hey, have banged that drum quite enough in this thread already, so... FWIW, here's my take on the characters, in no particular order:
Book - mildness hiding quiet strength, and some possibly questionable motives. On first impression I'd probably be inclined to trust him and share quite a bit with him; but 'getting to know him' through the course of the series has made me warier. He's a man with secrets, and people with secrets put me off sharing mine. That said, I admire his strong self-awareness.
Jayne - the type of guy I tend to hit with pool cues. That or I'd take the Wash approach... mock him with my ability to string together sentences. He's funny, and his crush on Kaylee is kinda endearing, but I wouldn't want to have to rely on him.
Kaylee - I adore Kaylee in episodic instalments, but if I had to live with her, the incessant chirpiness and cutesiness would drive me up the wall. She'd be fun to laugh with sometimes, and her earthiness is refreshing, but I couldn't imagine having a really serious conversation with her. There are times when the last thing you want is 'cheering up'. That said, she's still young, right?
Zoe - action lady! First reaction: impressed, slightly intimidated. Then you realise she's got a (nicely dry) sense of humour and a strong sense of loyalty (honour?), and you'd get along fine. Her no-nonsense outlook would be an extremely welcome antidote to Kaylee...
Simon - I've already outlined my thoughts above, but briefly: I like Simon. He needs to grow up somewhat, but he's intelligent and loyal. His aloof/shy attitude would frustrate me at first, but his sense of humour would completely appeal: dry, detached, clever, and slightly self-conscious - even when he's being forced around the ship at gunpoint by Jubal Early.
River - hard to tell, really. She's still more a child than a devloped personality. Given the flashback scene to her as a kid ('Safe'?), she wasn't exactly operating on the same level as everyone else even before she got turned into The Human Computer. I'd want to listen, but not to talk with her that often.
Inara - had the potential to be very unlikeable, but she's warm and witty enough (right from her "Hey, you" to Kaylee in 'Serenity') to make it plain that there's a human being under the artifice. I'd let her do my hair. Capable, independent, and sharp-witted; I liked her more and more as the series went on.
Wash - he really is a blond, cleverer Xander, isn't he? I respond to him in much the same way. He's funny, loyal and big-hearted, I'd love to count him as a friend - but his constant harping on his insecurities would definitely irritate at close quarters. As someone pointed out further up this thread, he tries too hard.
Mal - hmm. I showed a few episodes of Firefly to a friend recently, and she was fascinated by Mal's leadership technique. Her conclusion was that everyone on the crew was just a little bit in love with him... and I think she's quite right. He has an allure to him that inspires confidence and loyalty. Whether or not you like him (and he'd be quite hard to like, at first), you have to admire his conviction, his inner strength, and his devotion to his 'people'. Then, as you get to know him, you see that he's a mass of contradictions, doubt and secret pain - and what girl doesn't love that? Seriously, though, self-doubt born of self-awareness is every bit as compelling as bullish confidence. To act in spite of that is true strength of character, IMHO.
I see Nandi as very much a female version of Mal. She's another one who both gives and inspires loyalty. Both are the type of person you'd trust with your life, if it ever became necessary - and follow to the ends of
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Zoid,
Wow! I have been the cause of a happy dance. How very exciting.
As for the River quote, I wouldn't worry too much. I'm not sure where else you've posted them, but the memorial day thread seemed the wrong place to comment, and there was too much else going on here to get to them. Since I have gotten to them, however, I'll digress further. I'm busy spinning theories on who River could be talking about; I'll give you my favorite, so you can tell me how wrong I've gotten it. She is talking about Shepherd Book, who gave up his life (as Book) to become Richard Wilkins again.
As for the insight into the female mind, don't give that post too much credit. It is a rambling meander I wrote exhausted and up with insomnia, although that actually might mean that it's more likely to provide insight, now that I think about it, since I was too tired to edit myself very much. I was a little surprised, honestly, by some of my responses, I'd never really thought about Inara as being the person I'd pick as friend before. But I'm sticking to it.
I haven't commented on most of the men, but since he's being held up as the Anti-Simon, I'll give you my impressions of Jayne. Jayne is, on the surface, untrustworthy, uncouth, uneducated and unrepentant about any of those things. But I think there's a lot going on under the surface, and I'd have been curious to see what they did with Jayne as the series went on.
Jayne cheats at cards, and "the money was too good" where River and Simon are concerned, but I suspect that if you could become someone or something that Jayne truly cared about, he'd be among the most loyal on the crew, because once he decided that about you, that is what you would be, and he wouldn't rethink it.
For example, watch him with Kaylee. Try to imagine Jayne turning on Kaylee. I can't. Can't think of situation in which he would betray her (except that by betraying any of the crew, you betray not only Mal but all the rest, but I think that concept is a bit beyond Jayne, honestly). You see it in the letter from home, and the wearing of that ridiculous hat from Mama. His mother sent him a hat, he declared it pretty cunning, put it on. You ever wonder what he might have said about that hat if Wash had been the one wearing it? I think you see it, too, in his relationship with Book, and in his guilt/grief over the mudder who took the shot for him.
The problem is, unless you were one of those things Jayne truly cared about (or so wealthy you would never have to worry about his selling his loyalty elsewhere), then you're on the level of cheating at cards. But if you were someone Jayne cared about, I suspect there's very little he wouldn't do for you. As far as husband/boyfriend material, I'll actually take my text from his reaction to Saffron. Okay, he went about it badly -- the "Then can I know her?" was crass and I think I speak for most women in the 'verse when I say that offering to trade a gun for us might not be the swiftest way to our hearts.
BUT, look at his lines in the rest of the scene -- "Damnit, Mal, I'd treat her okay," and "I'll protect her." Do you doubt him? I didn't, even in a scene being played for comedy. Jayne would probably make a very loyal, good husband who be completely wrapped around his wife's little finger. And the uncouth and uneducated thing, I suspect she could change that, or at least make some dents.
He's still not my type, but there's some rambling analysis of Jayne to add to your hints into the female mind. (Good luck with that, by the way, but don't spend too much time on it, I don't know that we're meant to understand each other too well.)
Delia
___________________________________________
ANYA: Don't be ridiculous. Martha Stewart isn't a demon. She's a witch.
XANDER: Please, she-- Really?
ANYA: Of course. Nobody could do that much decoupage without calling on the powers of darkness.
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Three thoughts I had on this:
1) GUNHAND, I get what you're trying to say in comparing Simon to Hugh Grant, but remember one thing about the man: the most "manly" thing he ever did, getting caught with the hooker, was what cost him one of the most beautiful women in the world.
2) Zoe's not very feminine. Do we hold her to the same standards as we hold Simon?
3) I always thought Simon's parents were afraid of River. Her father is happy to give presents to Simon in the flashback of them as children, btu seems resistant to give River anything. Simon is smart, but no smarter than Dad. River is something they don't understand. So they love Simon, but are relieved to be rid of River. And when Simon risks his career for her, the father doesn't want any part of it. He's content to put her away, where he doesn't have to face her. So I don't think it's about money. I think it's about fear of the unknown.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
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Okay, I kind of hestitate to do this, because it's gonna open all sort of discussion, but the librarian in me needs to fix this quote, from Basket Case by Green Day.
Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
I went to a whore,
She said my life's a bore.
The actual line, (and this emphasis was placed in the liner notes, I think, it was my sister's CD and I haven't seen it since high school) is
"I went to a whore, HE said my life's a bore."
Y'all have fun with it.
Delia
___________________________________________
ANYA: Don't be ridiculous. Martha Stewart isn't a demon. She's a witch.
XANDER: Please, she-- Really?
ANYA: Of course. Nobody could do that much decoupage without calling on the powers of darkness.
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Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:
Three thoughts I had on this:
1) GUNHAND, I get what you're trying to say in comparing Simon to Hugh Grant, but remember one thing about the man: the most "manly" thing he ever did, getting caught with the hooker, was what cost him one of the most beautiful women in the world.
Hmmmm. I guess I don't consider getting a blow job from a prostitute to be especially "manly," at least, not in so far as my understanding of the term goes. I'd like to know what the guys here abouts consider to be the (concise) efinition of "manly" (and no worries, Gunhand, to paraphrase Mal, you're far to pretty for us to let get corpsified).
___________________________________________
ANYA: Don't be ridiculous. Martha Stewart isn't a demon. She's a witch.
XANDER: Please, she-- Really?
ANYA: Of course. Nobody could do that much decoupage without calling on the powers of darkness.
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Gunhand worries that he doesn't express his thoughts very well, but I think he did just fine, at least I think I understand what he was trying to say. Don't agree with it, but...
I also usually don't find the right words for what I want to say until after the fact, but for now this is how I feel about it.
Zoid...this is the first of your many very entertaining posts that I really disagree with. Simon should not be judged by the rules of Kaylee's world, any more than she should be judged by his.
I suppose I identify with Simon a lot because I am basically very shy myself, and while certainly not top 3% I am no dummy either. But under the surface, I believe Simon (and myself) are sensitive, caring individuals, who would have things a lot better in life if people would just accept us the way we are and not try to put us into the mold of what they want us to be.
There is no reason he should submit to Kaylee's flirtations since she is hardly the type of girl he would be attracted to under normal circumstances. A better match for him would be Inara, not as a companion mind you, but if she left the guild don't you think she would make the perfect doctor's wife?
As for your final (say it ain't so) quote from General Wilkins' book. I doubt if River is referring to Book since he is the author of the book being quoted, so my guess is that it is Simon.
wo men ren ran zai fei xing.
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Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
There is no reason he should submit to Kaylee's flirtations since she is hardly the type of girl he would be attracted to under normal circumstances. A better match for him would be Inara, not as a companion mind you, but if she left the guild don't you think she would make the perfect doctor's wife?
Honestly, no, I can't see Inara as Simon's wife. As for Kaylee, I think he desperately wants to submit to her flirtations, he just doesn't quite know how to. Maybe what attacts him is that she's not the girl he would have been introduced to in his old life. But Simon's old life is more or less over -- even if River is cured, he's not likely to be a surgeon on Osiris again, and even if he is, he won't be the one who left.
Quote:
As for your final (say it ain't so) quote from General Wilkins' book. I doubt if River is referring to Book since he is the author of the book being quoted, so my guess is that it is Simon.
I thought about Simon (also Mal), but dismissed him because his quote was something about "history says I saved River." History can't both say something about him and "forget" him. The only character who is gone, who is not mentioned in these by the name he used on Serenity, is Book. So I'm sticking with my assessment.
Delia
___________________________________________
Spike: Why don't you rip her lungs out? It might make an impression.
Angelus: Lacks... poetry.
Spike: It doesn't have to. What rhymes with lungs?
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ecgordon, Delia, et alia:
First, I think Delia's closer to the truth of the Simon/Kaylee 'close orbit'. Simon does want to take Kaylee up on her tacit (unspoken, if likewise unsubtle) offer. He is very attracted to her, and without reservations. The problem is that he always manages to stick his foot in it (as in when he came down the ramp in "Safe") at the most inopportune time, and queer the deal. In "The Message", he's at the very threshold of closing that deal in the booth with the cow fetus exhibit when he manages to insult her yet again, and everybody knows it ("Oh my God, it's hideous! Oh, and look: There's something in a jar," LMFAO). In "Safe", wherein Kaylee is about to buy him a gift, he manages to blunder in and insult her gift and all the people who are so unsophisticated as to live on a backwater planet, and fly around on a piece of go-se spaceship under a ping-something of a captain. He so thoroughly insults Kaylee's sensibilities he might as well have looked her straight in the eye and said, "Oh yeah and you're ugly too" (punchline from the old joke about the patient who asked her doctor for a second opinion).
Shy?! How many times did Simon get punched out in a single episode by Mal for for being outspoken, insulting him or contravening the captain's orders? ("Saw that one coming.") Simon is no shrinking violet when it comes to speaking his mind. Some might say that he's self-absorbed, but I reckon he's more just a clutz: He manages to miss the forest for the trees a lot, and when he speaks his mind seems to have no inkling that his words may offend others (by which example, I too identify with him).
Delia:
I was so worried that someone might get the wrong idea about the last 'future quote'; but, it's apparent that I have not failed, so *phew!*, that's a load off my mind. I left it intentionally ambiguous, intending it to be thought-provoking, and it's worked (zoid feels gratified that he didn't 'screw the pooch'). It looks like different people see the Unnamed Man as different characters -- which probably says a lot about the individuals making those guesses -- and so, provide everyone who's playing (me, too!) an inside glimpse into the nature of those doing the guessing. Isn't that fun?
So, well and good. Next week I'll repost them all in a single thread, and give a synopsis, and you'll see that I gave you the necessary hints as to who the Unnamed Man was, that I didn't 'cheat'. (zoid chuckles to himself and rubs hands together, maleficently)
Respectfully,
zoid
_________________________________________________
"I knew a man once. History will never recall him, or what he gave to make us free. That's the way he wanted it. But as long as I live I'll remember, and he'll never truly die."
- River, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
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Zoid,
I just had to go reread all my posts on this thread so that I could be sure I wasn't about to contradict myself.
I agree with you that "shy" is the wrong word for Simon. I'd say "reserved," without hesitation, but "shy" just ain't quite it. And his problems with getting the words right (or at least not wrong) with Kaylee get even more complicated.
My new thought on Simon and Kaylee, stemming from some conversations in Jaynestown. Both the "I would never not with Kaylee" mess and the scene at the end, especially "My way of being polite, or however it's...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. I'm showing respect."
I think both go to the fact that Simon is probably from a world where there are girls you marry and girls you have a bit of fun with. Simon is still operating under the rules of his society, and he's trying to treat Kaylee as one of the former (though the society from which he comes would probably deem her one of the latter). Sleeping with her (or even coming remotely close), especially while they're both drunk, is therefore out of the question, because that would be disrepectful, no matter how much he might want to. Thus his denial that he "would never, not with Kaylee." (The fact that he's basically talking to her big brother probably comes into play a bit, too. )
Simon is off-kilter already, and Kaylee just throws him even further from what he know. I have no doubt women in Simon's world knew how to make it obvious that they were willing, it was supposed to be discreet (see the insult to Banning in Shindig). Having Kaylee make it quite obvious what she wants is not anything Simon has ever had to deal with before. And trying to merge the behaviors and mores of one society with the behaviors and mores of another is not an easy thing.
I suppose I knew you weren't going to confirm or deny anything about the Mystery Man. I'm going to have to read back over all the quotes again and see what clues I can find! I'm looking forward to the summation -- what do you have planned as a follow-up?
Out of curiosity, am I to read anything into the fact that River is identified only as "River" and has no last name?
Delia
___________________________________________
Spike: Why don't you rip her lungs out? It might make an impression.
Angelus: Lacks... poetry.
Spike: It doesn't have to. What rhymes with lungs?
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Since Inara is the only one not given a quote from the book I suppose we can assume Zoid will tell us that the secret all along is that Inara is a man, and that the syringe held an estrogen booster.
wo men ren ran zai fei xing.
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Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Since Inara is the only one not given a quote from the book I suppose we can assume Zoid will tell us that the secret all along is that Inara is a man, and that the syringe held an estrogen booster.
wo men ren ran zai fei xing.
Inara had a quote about thinking River was sweet but crazy. All nine are accounted for.
Delia
___________________________________________
Spike: Why don't you rip her lungs out? It might make an impression.
Angelus: Lacks... poetry.
Spike: It doesn't have to. What rhymes with lungs?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Delia:
Inara had a quote about thinking River was sweet but crazy. All nine are accounted for.
Okay, my bad. I missed that one.
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ecgordon wrote:
Quote:
Okay, my bad. I missed that one.
No problem, it was the second in the series, really before anybody (me included) had any definitive idea of what was going on. Here's the actual quote:
"River? I thought she was a sweet girl. Of course, we were all sure she was crazy, too."
- Inara Reynolds, Secretary of Ecumenical Affairs
from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
Respectfully,
zoid
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Delia, Mistress of Tomes wrote:
Quote:
I suppose I knew you weren't going to confirm or deny anything about the Mystery Man. I'm going to have to read back over all the quotes again and see what clues I can find! I'm looking forward to the summation -- what do you have planned as a follow-up?
Out of curiosity, am I to read anything into the fact that River is identified only as "River" and has no last name?
Delia
Well, like I said, I left it ambiguous but the clues are there; enough (IMO, too many) to help one unravel the mystery. But, as River says in the quote, the man is unnamed because he wanted it that way. Therefore, more than a wish on my part to be mysterious, it's really just River keeping him anonymous in order to respect his wishes; so it works on that level, too, hmm?
I'm no River. I'll name him next Monday, but not before. In the meantime, y'all feel free to guess and provide supporting evidence. I wanna see if the speculation 'spoils' the ending. I'm betting it won't, strictly because whoever gets forwarded as a candidate, you've got to figure out exactly how it all fits together in order to make any sense of the series as a whole, and my money says nobody can (unless there's a mind-reader in the audience; "River?").
This is germane, because I've often argued that speculation about Firefly is not spoiling. How Joss gets us to his conclusion is more important than where he's taking us. The 'future quote' series has -- in some small part -- become an experiment to prove or disprove that theory.
One thing I've definitely discovered in the process, though, is that it's not necessarily required to know a journey of discovery's destination when one sets out, just a direction in which to start. This makes me wonder if JW knew from the beginning -- or if he yet knows -- what Firefly's ultimate destination is, or if he only really knew what direction he wanted to go. Is Firefly's story writing itself, as mine did?
Fascinating, as Mr. Spock would say (if moot)...
As to what I'll do next, I have no idea. I'll do something, and then see where it leads me. Crazy as I know that sounds, it's a methodology that works for me; it's how I did the 'future quotes' series. I had only a basic idea of what I was doing and then about four weeks in, the whole thing became clear to me and finished writing itself. It's probably the oddest style of invention I've ever heard of, but one that has worked for me time and again since I first discovered it about twenty years ago...
As to River's lack of a last name, there are many things that can be read into that, and several would be correct.
But I think I will definitely never illuminate that mystery, at least not in this series, heh-heh...Respectfully,
zoid
_________________________________________________
"I knew a man once. History will never recall him, or what he gave to make us free. That's the way he wanted it. But as long as I live I'll remember, and he'll never truly die."
- River, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
_________________________________________________
"I knew a man once. History will never recall him, or what he gave to make us free. That's the way he wanted it. But as long as I live I'll remember, and he'll never truly die."
- River, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
How 'bout a WAG and I'll go with Badger. He's really the leader of the underground movement that helped Simon rescue River. He'd probably want to stay anonymous, since all his dealings aren't strictly legal.
Off to get on my plane now.
All my life I wanted to be somebody. I guess I should have been more specific.
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Since this whole shebang of a thread started talking about Simon and River's parents, let's get back to the heart of the matter.
I don't think that the Tams are infatuated with money. I think they already have money. They certainly shouldn't expect their children to enrich their lives that way. But their behavior doesn't indicate that they expect their children to enrich their lives with meaningful relationships either. I believe what motivates the Tams is position.
When young Simon is asking his father for a dedicated source box his father responds by bargaining the item with Simon becoming a brilliant doctor. Later when Simon is brought to the police headquarters his father is furious with him for not only making him leave a social function but also for making him enter the police headquarters, something that is entered into his permanent record. Given this penchant for social and political influence isn't it slightly possible the Tams bargained River away to the Feds? Perhaps they knew, or suspected what the "academy" River was sold on attending was really about. Maybe not even firm knowledge, but hints and allegations, hushed whispers about the Alliance's dirty little secrets.
Given this very eastern monomaniacal fixation on position, the foundation of which is proper thought and behavior, is it any wonder Simon is socially retarded? After all Simon isn't some slack roughneck child on a rim planet. He's a well-bred young man who aspires to be a doctor. No time wasted on social functions or dating. Certainly no time for idle time with peers, hanging out in parks or necking with the girls in his class. He was a prisoner of the ultimate soccer parents. Every spare minute of his day was probably planned and orchestrated to gain the maximum social advantage, the best scholastic position to assault the final admittance test to medical school.
All of this social repression has stunted Simon in his relationships with the fairer sex. As Mal said; "He'd have to relax for ten seconds to get his play." This strict formality is also reflected in his relationship with Kaylee. He says that when he is stiff and formal with her he is showing respect. Respect is something he doesn't seem to get a lot of from Serenity's crew. Or maybe he just doesn't speak their language yet, they're giving him respect by inviting him into their inner circle but he is still looking for that stiff formality.
So, there is one area where Simon is retarded, delayed in the strictest sense of the word. But all that effort produced a truly gifted doctor. In his element there is no hesitation, no uncertainty. His life is lived as if he existed in an operating theatre. There is a protocal and a procedure for behavior in a operating theatre and without his script, a guidebook for how to handle a given situation he flounders a little. He is as quick, decisive and efficient in healing injuries as Jayne is in dealing them out but outside this mileau he is a little lost. Does this make Simon a child?
I'm going to fall back on Heinlein's definition of a citizen. "A citizen makes the safety of the body politic his or her own personal responsibility". This is exactly what Simon does in rescuing River. It is the moral equivalent of Mal and Zoe fighting for the Independents during the war. Simon's personal Serenity valley is in Safe when he knows he can't win the fight, but he can die, and accepts that. Mal and Zoe show up and are Big Damn Heroes but Simon didn't know they were going to ride in.
This seems to be an action that Jayne can't wrap his head around. Looking at things this way, it seems Jayne is the boy and Simon is the man.
Now, as to whether or not Simon will ever relax, I think Kaylee should arm herself with a bottle of high proof spirits and use it to have her way with him. I.E. clobber him with it and then ravish him while he is unconscious.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
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I agree with Hardware. Simon is a lot like Rodney Dangerfield. He don't get no respect, but that needs to change.
wo men ren ran zai fei xing.
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Hardware:
Excellent post, if you don't mind my saying so. All the joshing aside, my intent with the thread was to examine how Simon's early environment has shaped him. I think you've done that admirably.
As to River, it has occurred to me (and I've posted the opinion/speculation elsewhere) that she is in fact a genetically engineered human, either surgically implanted into Regan Tam's womb, or placed into the Tam household as an infant. She was always going to be reclaimed by Alliance/BlueSun, and so the Tams wouldn't invest much in her emotionally, nor 'rescue' her from her proper masters.
If true (and I'm certainly not willing to risk gambling on it), this would open some thought-provoking relationship channels vis-a-vis Simon. She's already proposed marriage and child-rearing in one of the deleted scenes.
Simon is, as you said in more incisive phrasing, a 'medico-geek'. But is he a child, or does that make him a child, as you asked? No. But it doesn't make him a man either. As I said, River tells him that the patient in post-op on Ariel is going to die; he says no. She says they're going to kill him; he says no they're not. They turn the corner, and we hear the patient's EKG monitor go into alarm for cardiac failure (I could hear it, and I'm nearly deaf thanks to Judas Priest). Does Simon spring immediately into action? Nope. River has to prod him again, before he moves to save the man. He is indecisive, even in his metier. He figuratively denies his profession three times before the alarm crows, er, sounds.
This is even more telling for a doctor, and one who has stated that he was stationed in the ER of a major metropolis. Between that hesitancy and his outright shirking of his Hippocratic oath (which I assume they still have 500 years hence) when Kaylee is wounded, we have more proof that while he is not a child, he is not a man yet either. He seems not to understand that a man's word is his bond, and that the oath he has taken as a doctor is not mutable based on circumstances.
Still, for those who may be asking the simple question, "So, what are you driving at? Do you like Simon or not?", I will give a simple answer: Yes, I like him. I trust that he will grow up and become an honorable man because Mal trusts him, and if anything is true in Firefly, then Mal's judgement of character must be likewise true. In Mal I trust. Mal likes his crew -- with reasonable reservations -- and so do I.
On an unrelated note, I will not repeat the social gaffe of marking threads with 'zoid post'. In retrospect, it was a bad idea, regardless how innocent my intentions ("I don't give half-a-hump whether you're innocent or not..."). My apologies to any I may have offended (especially Whoodahn), and I will not try to defend myself. It won't happen again.
Respectfully,
zoid
_________________________________________________
"I knew a man once. History will never recall him, or what he gave to make us free. That's the way he wanted it. But as long as I live I'll remember, and he'll never truly die."
- River, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
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I REALLY wish I had the time to read this.
Maybe tomorrow.
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Interesting thread. I liked Delia's turn of phrase with this line:
"the word I would choose for him is almost 'asexual.'"
The word, however, is 'Intellectual'.
Rewind a bit.
Simon isn't the son of Money; he's the son of Power. His father is Influential, probably Political ... even if that's not his job. A "doctor" who sits on a certification board or runs an arm of a hospital has a political influence on those around him. He makes things happen with deals, reputation, and by gathering followers who support his agenda. If Simon's father is a Politician, it's even more obvious.
A man playing that kind of game is always playing it, 24/7. Every mistake you make will come back to haunt you, every hand you shake is an opportunity, every word spoken at dinner is a gambit in some game, and even being seen at a table from across the room is a tool.
While it is likely that he loves his son and daughter, he is preoccupied with the constant battle against his peers. Given this situation, he doesn't have time for some foolishness about River sending secret messages from inside the "prison" of the ultimate (most prestigious, very "feather-in-a-cap") schooling any Alliance member can attend. Simon's family gains reputation from having a daughter in this school! Simon's going to challenge that bargaining chip ... based on some fantasy about coded messages??!? Ha!
So, we get a Son who only receives approval when he does something his Father can show off to others. Simon is very smart; he excels in school. These two things are a classic mix of human nature, and lead to someone who pours all his effort into achieving the peak of the most intellectual profession out there: he is not just a Doctor, but a Surgeon, working at The Best Hospital.
"But what about girls?" I hear you saying.
There's something you must realize about this situation. When you're a kid, pushed by your parents to absorb knowledge and excel in school, it can go one of two ways. One is, you can't do it, and you rebel. A human being needs a sense of self-worth, and if you're constantly failing, a fight-or-flight response is evoked.
The other way it can go, though, is that you succeed. Simon does. The moment when his father gives him the Cortex link is a very special moment for him: it's a sign of love from his father, and he got that sign of love by succeeding in school. All of his effort goes into that, and it rewards him.
Occassionally, girls are a distraction. He's been out of touch with his peers for so long, however, that he has no skills for dealing with girls by the time that happens. Any attempt at contact goes badly ("failure"), so he retreats from that part of his life and burrows more completely into the successful part of his life (intellectual pursuit).
Sorry. This is going on a very long time. Bear with me just a moment more.
What you're left with is someone who is extremely good at the things he's practiced, but who (1) doesn't know the first thing about women, and (2) doesn't even have any practice at talking to anyone less intelligent than himself. Kaylee is less intelligent than Simon. (That's one big way in which the characters are different from the actors.)
Furthermore, he doesn't even have the skills that a normal teenager would have developed. He hasn't practiced. So, he's making teenager-level mistakes when dealing with an adult.
That, my friends, is a four star turn-off. How many women out there want to teach a child how to be your boyfriend? At some point, it gets old. Not the first week, no, and if he's really cute, maybe not the first month. They've been together a pretty long while, though, and he's still making the childish mistakes. I can totally feel for Kaylee's frustration.
Simon's got the ultimate luck going for him, though: he and Kaylee are locked together on that ship, and he's going to have a lot of weeks to keep practicing, and get better at this. He just needs time.
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Skydance:
Very insightful. Brava, (female, I hope?)! I would merely add that the only things about love Simon has learned have been through his relationship with River, never his parents. Respect for authority, an understanding of power and status, an appreciation of the finer things in life, ya-da, ya-da, sure... But what about love? If Simon's weak attempts at romantic behavior are indicative of familial behavior, then Gabriel and Regan Tam have a very stiff and formal (non-existent?) relationship when it comes to marital love. It is crucially important to a child's development that his parents show her/him a proper picture of mature love. Simon's what? 26 years old? And this is what he's learned from his parental example? Does Gabriel ever talk to Regan, touch her intimately, kiss her with genuine affection? Not based on the evidence of Simon's social interactions with Kaylee or any other member of the crew. Sheesh!
I still say the quickest way to normalize Simon is for Kaylee to jump his overly proper bones. Hell, even a good kissin' oughtta loosen his tongue and unstiffen that upper lip...
Respectfully,
zoid
_________________________________________________
"I knew a man once. History will never recall him, or what he gave to make us free. That's the way he wanted it. But as long as I live I'll remember, and he'll never truly die."
- River, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
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Oh, agreed on the point about River.
Now, this "brava" thingie ... are you questioning if I am female? No, no -- not a bit of it. I'm something of an intellectual, however, having lived the confusion of "success with books / failure with people." My story is rather different from Simon's though. I wasn't pushed by my family at all.
However, at the venerable age of 40, I've gathered an insight or two into lives outside my own, and it's easy to see the places Simon's development differed from my own. Coincidentally, we share a strong conviction about doing what is "right" -- or, perhaps it's not coincidental, and is actually a side-effect of the process of learning to connect with the rest of society on an individual basis. Got any developmental psychologists in the audience who have heard such a theory before?
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Skydance:
My apologies, sir. I always click on the poster's name to see if they've left any data about themselves on their Profile page. I did this on yours, and found nothing; but remembering someone with a screen name similar(?) to yours saying they were a female... Well, let's just say I obviously misremembered. Sorry, again.
Very lucid posts, though.
Respectfully,
zoid
_________________________________________________
"I knew a man once. History will never recall him, or what he gave to make us free. That's the way he wanted it. But as long as I live I'll remember, and he'll never truly die."
- River, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
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A Doctor in the House? Simon is a Companion, of course. So much becomes clear, now.
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Wow. Okay. So, I’m really thinking that I shouldn’t bother jumping into this thread because you’ve all said so much and I hate repeating things. But I’m foolish and tired, so I’m clearly going to anyway.
So.
I have to first say that I agree with Zoid and Gunhand about Simon being “not quite right,” and I agree that there are plenty of people who can just know when they see it. There is something slightly odd about that boy.... What makes it worse is the fact that I can very much relate to him. At times, I can be just like him, which is kinda embarrassing to admit, but I apparently have no fear of embarrassment. (And I’m a girl, by the way. So that means either I’m a bit of a tom-boy or he’s a bit of a nancy-boy.) I would like to be able to expand upon why or how I think I understand the boy, but more often than not, it’s more abstract association than concrete evidence. I’m not at all sure anything I have to say would come out in any coherent or meaningful way. For me, that sorta discussion is better for a sit-down than a type-off.
There is not one thing about Simon that I find attractive. Nada. He’d only seem like a brother to me. And it’s not cuz he’s not attractive... I guess his features aren’t too hard to look upon... it’s just... one of those things... yeah, he’s “not quite right.” I can understand why there are a lot of Simon fangirls, though, cuz he does have some admirable qualities. Just none of those qualities are attractive to me in anything other than a “oh, that’s nice” kinda way.
As for the Simon & Kaylee thing... she is way too good for him. She deserves the best, and he is clearly not it. Not now, anyway.
Moving right along. I consider myself to be a fairly well educated chick – independent and doing well in a traditionally male-dominated industry – who appreciates being able to hold a conversation with a kind, sentient guy and having, maybe, some connection on an intellectual level...blah, blah, blah. But, for some reason – call me crazy – I would take Jayne over any of the rest of the guys. In. A. Heartbeat. And you can take “take” to mean anything you can think of at this moment. (For the record, Wash would be second, followed by Mal... then moving right along to Kaylee... heh... Book doesn’t even register on my radar.)
There are so many things I could say about Jayne.... That character is obviously (and admittedly) one of Mr.J’s (in)famous anti-heroes. Every show that aired – when re: Jayne’s character – made a point of emphasizing to the audience that he’s a not-so-good guy; he can’t be trusted; he’s only in it for the money; yada, yada, yada. Now, I’m no film student or expert on anything related... but... isn’t that classic misdirection? Or maybe I’m thinking of the term for the “making the character so bad that the 180 makes for a more effectual impact” thing? Anyway, Spike is the first / best example that comes to mind in the Whedon’verse. There are so many subtle things about Jayne throughout the shows (and in the scripts, drafts, etc.) that leads me to believe that he woulda been the Spike of the Firefly ‘verse. I doubt anyone, save Mr.J, could convince me otherwise.
Now for the female crew.... I love Zoe and Kaylee. It’s too hard for me to pick a favorite between those two because they both possess such different qualities, most of which I admire and respect. I hope to be just like them when I grow up.
River: While she’s had some good lines now and again, she’s nothing more than a device. The closest she’s come to being an actual character was in OIS. Unfortunately, that was the end of it all, so she remains an unrealized plot potential.
Inara. I have no idea. I like her well enough, I guess, but I’ve always been intimidated by good looking women. What can I say? I’m shallow and quite possibly, subconsciously, traumatized because of who-knows-what happened in my childhood. We’ll probably never know and I’m certain I don’t care. There’s also something about her career that puts me a little on guard – how could you ever be sure she
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I think what Zoid and Gunhand see in Simon that irks them so is subtle dependency. They interpret him as chosing to be dithering and helpless. That way he avoids heavy lifting.
I don't happen to agree. I imagine his upbringing as being virtually cloistered. He was naturally of a disposition to please his parents, which focused him on doing those things well his parents chose, which got him through all levels of schooling. And a need and habit to do things well keeps him from venturing into new directions, like relating with people who aren't family. Beyond that, he's guiless. With him, it's in for a penny, in for a pound. Of all the characters, he's the one whose INTENTIONS I would trust most.
On the other hand I would put a lot of distance between River and myself, not that she's evil. I equate being around her to dealing with a really large animal who could squash you without noticing (oops). Self-preservation alarms go off at the idea.
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rue wrote:
Quote:
I think what Zoid and Gunhand see in Simon that irks them so is subtle dependency. They interpret him as chosing to be dithering and helpless. That way he avoids heavy lifting.
Well, I can't speak for Gunny; but, the only thing that 'irks' me (too strong a word really) is Simon's youthful ignorance of his surroundings. He is unintentionally self-absorbed. He's not intentionally a peacock, vain, egotistical or uncaring of others' feelings. It just works out that way. Like many young people, he believes that the universe revolves around him. His rational process tells him that if he accidentally steps on another person's sensibilities, he's sorry, but it's not so much that he did something wrong, as it is that the universe -- while in the process of revolving around him -- stuck that person's feelings where he could trip over them.
After a man takes the final step to maturity -- be that at 16 or 46 -- he knows to be more aware of his environment than this. He also knows that if he steps on somebody else's feelings, it's nobody's fault but his own. They didn't ask for it (well, ok, sometimes they do) and it's not the universe's fault either.
Simon hasn't quite gotten that figured out yet. To borrow from my favorite source reference, he hasn't yet had the 'scales' removed from his eyes, he still sees the world through the eyes of a boy, not yet through those of a man. But as I said earlier, I believe he will, strictly because Mal appears to believe he will.
For the umptieth time, he needs to get laid. Becoming one with the female (especially one so openly female as Kaylee), even for those fleeting few seconds, will open his senses to the external world. Is there anything closer to total enlightenment, to heaven, than 'the little death'?
For all the Simon fans, then, just wait; the best of your favorite character is yet to come. Someday very soon, I predict, you will see a change in Simon, and get the gestalt, the 'ah-hah!' of what I and Gunhand and others herein have been talking about.
Either that or you will simply conclude that I'm full of sh*t. Either way, you'll be right. Life instructs, I just run the slide projector...
Respectfully,
zoid
_________________________________________________
"I knew a man once. History will never recall him, or what he gave to make us free. That's the way he wanted it. But as long as I live I'll remember, and he'll never truly die."
- River, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
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Zoid,
I have apparently stepped on your feelings, something I didn't intend.
I read all the posts and I couldn't figure out what the common thread was - except that something about Simon seemed to rub the wrong way - enough to irk. Since I couldn't see it, I truly endeavored to understand what was being said. I guess I didn't even get that right.
My apologies for my post that came across as contentious (?), or for whatever there was about it it that caused such a reply.
Rue
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rue wrote:
Quote:
I have apparently stepped on your feelings, something I didn't intend.
Not in the least. I just wanted to point out that I don't find humans -- fictional or otherwise -- the least bit irksome, even when their inherent fallibility give me cause for reservation. My last statement in the post is not an indictment of others, it is an indictment of myself.
You're new hereabouts, correct? Ask anybody. I've been described as twisted, convoluted, conspiratorial... And those are just the nice ones
. But I ain't a 'hater'; I just see things from a different perspective (and so does zoid).Ruefully,
zoid
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At the risk of, um, flogging a dead horse...
I happened to be watching 'Ariel' a few evenings ago, and I have to say that I read the scene with the cardiac arrest guy rather differently than you, Zoid (and others) did. Simon's initial hesitation stems for the fact that it's River's precognition talking. Which he doesn't believe in. As soon as the other doctors become alarmed for the patient, Simon moves (I think the line is "Code Blue"). Before that, he assumes it to be only River's ramblings - back on Serenity earlier in ep, after all, the main thread of her complaints had been "going to die". Why should Simon immediately connect her words with reality? He's heard her say so many things that are crazy or appear to be, so why should he hear this any differently?
Compare the bit in 'Heart of Gold' where River announces "It's starting!", but no-one reacts until Petaline herself starts yelling.
Hmm, I'm beginning to sound like Simon's one-woman cheerleader squad ((obBuffyRef)"I'll really miss the intellectual thrill of spelling out words with my arms." (/ObBuffyRef)) I entirely agree that he's lacking in the grown-up emotional experience department, but then when you do your internship in 8 months you probably aren't leaving a whole bunch of time in your life for social interaction.
I still say he's more a fish out of water on Serenity than a deficient human being in general, though.
/ pure intentions, juxtaposed /
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There's a very old joke--a limousine stops, the chauffeur gets out, opens the back door, and lifts a little boy out of the back seat and carries him. The kid's mother gets out of the limo, and a passerby says, "Oh, the poor little boy! Why can't he walk?" The kid's mother snaps, "Of course he can walk! But with his trust fund, he'll never have to!"
One characteristic of television shows is their predilection for employing attractive persons of less than stellar thespian talent. As far as I'm concerned, Jayne is a repulsive *character*, and Adam Baldwin deserves all the props in the world for excellent acting. I like Simon a lot as a character, but....
As for the Tam family background, I think it's the kind of family where one person gets officially designated as Nuts which allows everyone else to not concentrate on their own peculiarities.
"Sadistic crap legitimized by florid prose"
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NicolaClarke:
I didn't mean my statement to be read literally. When I said Simon denies his profession 3 times "before the alarm crows, er, sounds", I meant that his denial is symbolic of the apostle Peter's denial of Christ (3 times before the cock crows). Authors (and filmmakers) often use 'Christ figure' symbolism in their storytelling: to denote who the main character is, to show selfless suffering, etc. That scene certainly appeared to me to be reminiscent of Peter's denial.
Regardless, there can be no mistake that Simon did deny his Hippocratic oath when he refused to treat Kaylee's GSW until Mal agreed to turn the ship. So is he deficient? Oh, yeah. Now, refer me to the human being you think isn't deficient. As I said, I like Simon because Mal does. Mal's judgement of character has got to be right, because Firefly is Mal's story. It's his world, everyone else just lives in it.
BTW, do you know the apostle Peter's first name? Thaaaat's right: Simon.
But I'm sure this is all just a coincidence. I'm sure Joss never thought about any of this beforehand, aren't you? The whole Simon Peter thing is just happenstance, don't you think?
Respectfully,
zoid
P.S.
Riddle me this: When does flogging a dead horse become administering the horse CPR?
Answer: When they start filming the BDM! Keep flogging, Nicki...
_________________________________________________
"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity
Only 317 days, 5 hours, 33 minutes, and 3 seconds left until The BDM!
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Well, considering that in the series finale of Angel, Angel says that someone is going to betray him, and Spike cheerily volunteers and offers to deny him three times too...I think we can assume that it's in the Jossverse playbook.
However, it's often a BAD idea to stop in the middle of a major felony to perform medical procedures when you have phony ID of dubious quality. I'm glad that it all worked out, but it would have been Typical Jossverse Luck for River to get killed in the kerfuffle that one would expect to occur.
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Hello Zoid,
I'm glad I didn't offend.
Yes, I'm pretty new here and don't post often. (What's the name when you read but don't post much - a lurker? Then I am that.)
I have to say I relish the level of writing, wit, talent, knowledge, humor, wisdom, insight ... it seems to come naturally to so many people on this board. So I'll just keep on readin' ... with the occasional post.
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Quote:
Originally posted by NicolaClarke:
Hmm, I'm beginning to sound like Simon's one-woman cheerleader squad ((obBuffyRef)"I'll really miss the intellectual thrill of spelling out words with my arms." (/ObBuffyRef))
I'll join the cheerleading squad, even if it does involve spelling words with my arms.
I'm enjoying this thread, though I think we are all starting to repeat ourselves.
I'm enjoying this thread, though I think we are all starting to repeat ourselves.
Still, I think I've gotten a lot of insight into the character. I'll be very curious to see what Simon is like in the movie, when (as near as I can keep the time line straight) he'll have been on Serenity for about a year. Should be curious to see how much of the proper doctor demeanor he's managed to shed (and he can shed all those shiny vests, too. And I'm not using shiny in the Firefly sense of the word).
Okay, Zoid, are you planning to get a conversation going on anyone else?
Delia
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ANGEL: People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do.
HAMILTON: Yeah, but we won't care.
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So I'm reading the posts, and I notice there's some contention as to if Simon is truly a dedicated dr, yada yada yada, since he hesitates.
So I began to thunk me a thought, and I realized - in what situations does he hesitate? It's where the training he's recieved (dr) runs into his decision to save his sister.
The whole bit with Kaylee being shot in Serenity. He starts to help her, and then realizes - 'I can use this'. I see it as him reacting the way he's been trained to react, smack-up banging into his newly chosen position of renegade, sister protector, etc.
In Ariel, he hesitates to help that cardiac man, not so much because he wouldn't want to help him, but he's there for his sister. He has a job to do. And the new job is conflicting with his old training.
How many here have ever had a job for a long time, and then moved into a different position with the same company? And say you're pulling a fax off the machine, and start to do what needs to be done with it, and then it hits you - that's not my job anymore, doh! So you put it in someone's mailbox, and feel a bit guilty about it? I see Simon being in that situation. Which is more important? The oath he swore to help people, or the oath he swore to help his sister? (Of course, I'm assuming oaths were sworn; he sang a song on the statue of Hippocrates, after all .)
I don't expect those decisions to ever be easy or comfortable for him, but they sure are interesting to watch!
****
Human beings are animals. They are sometimes monsters, sometimes magnificent, but always animals. They may prefer to think of themselves as fallen angels, but in reality they are risen apes.
Desmond Morris, 1967
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