Is There a Doctor in the House? (zoid post)
POSTED BY: zoid
UPDATED: Thursday, June 10, 2004 17:26
VIEWED: 12630
PAGE 2 of 8
I think the critical "manliness" scene for Simon was in Ariel, when he dropped everything to save that patient from his incompetent doctor. The tragic part is that Kaylee wasn't there to see it. Heck, even Jayne seemed in awe (and it was enough to snap River into full lucidity for the "first" time).
Also, Zoid's post made me think of a perfect song for Simon:
Basket Case
by: Green Day
Do you have the time, to listen to me whine,
About nothing and everything all at once?
I am one of those
Melodramatic fools,
Neurotic to the bone
No doubt about it.
[ chorus ]
Sometimes I give myself the creeps.
Sometimes my mind plays tricks on me.
It all keeps adding up,
I think I'm cracking up.
Am I just paranoid,
Or am'I just stoned?
[ /chorus ]
I went to a shrink,
To analyze my dreams.
She says it's lack of sex that's bringing me down.
I went to a whore,
She said my life's a bore.
Just quit my whining 'cause it's bringing her down.
(chorus)
Grasping to control,
So I better hold on.
(chorus)
-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Ok, I have several problems with your line of thought, but I like that you're exploring the reasons behind the characters.
I think Simon is just innocent. I mean who on the ship is more innocent than him? He has no experience with the kind of life they're leading. He's just trying to do the right thing for his sister and along the way he's learned far more about the world than he thought he didn't know. Whoever said he grew up in another world hit the nail on the head. Think about if you were suddenly plucked up and put into a group of foreigners that you only partially understood. How would you react? Would you feel comfortable (and it's apparent that he doesn't feel comfortable for a while) and could you be yourself?
As for his parents, well, I don't know that they didn't care. I think they thought that Simon was making something out of nothing, that River wasn't in trouble and Simon was imagining things. Remember she was a trickster even before she went to school. Their parents probably saw her letters as jokes, not cries for help. They probably couldn't even conceive of someone creating a fake school to trap the intelligent elite. It's far-fetched, science fiction, inconceivable. As naive as Simon is, think about how people raised in that society must be.
As for Kaylee, it's different to have a fling than a relationship. And I think she wants a relationship with Simon, not just a fling. I don't think she cared about the guy in "Out of Gas" or at least she didn't care what he thought about her. She cares what Simon thinks about her. She's been around men like Jayne (well, maybe not quite like Jayne, but you get my drift) all her life. Simon is different. Remember how much she liked the society party in Shindig and the dress. Something about that life attracts her and maybe that's part of what attracts her to Simon. Maybe it's the thought that if someone like Simon, who has experienced all of that glitter and beauty, could find her desirable.
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I wouldn't think that Joss would have a gay character in Firefly, it would certainly change the sexual tension of the show. I don't think Simon is gay, I think he is trying to show he is 'uppercrust', not only is he uncomfortable around Kaylee but most of his social skills seem to be stunted.
I've speculated that his parents detachment from their blight is because Simon's father knew exactly what was happening to River and had sent her to the Academy as part of a deal with the Alliance.
"I ain't crazy and I've got papers to prove it"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
I think the critical "manliness" scene for Simon was in Ariel, when he dropped everything to save that patient from his incompetent doctor. The tragic part is that Kaylee wasn't there to see it. Heck, even Jayne seemed in awe (and it was enough to snap River into full lucidity for the "first" time).
(snipped)
I agree that this is the crucial scene for Simon re: 'manliness'. In Simon's world, being uptight and formal counted for everything. Remember: the most powerful businessman has the largest desk and the smallest briefcase.
When we see him arrive on Serenity with his mysterious box we know he is of an entirely different 'class' than the others around him. He is a gentleman, he is used to a life of ease. He has never slummed around for kicks, he has spent his time in other more socially-acceptable (to his parents) pursuits.
In Atherton's world, Simon would be utterly at ease and find no trouble competing with the men around him: he is eloquent, articulate, intelligent, and no obvious physical deformities. He carries himself with confidence.
Notice how he carries himself differently as he 'loosens up' in subsequent episodes. He still stands tall, but his presence is no longer commanding. With the 'regular folks' on Serenity, he is adrift; he isn't certain of the pecking order in this new life, and he certainly doesn't have an exact place within that order.
Look at the time he drugged Jayne: after Jayne was knocked out he admitted that Jayne was scaring him, and he hoped it was okay with everyone that he'd tranked Jayne to keep him from becoming a problem. In the world of his Ariel-style hospitals, Simon would never have needed to explain his actions, nor would he have defended those actions. On Serenity, he is smart enough to know that his doctor's arrogance isn't going to get him anywhere ... and even if he is doing the 'right thing', he made damn sure the people he was with understood *why* he did it.
I absolutely agree that Simon is a metrosexual. Again, in his world, careful grooming counts for a great deal. In Jaynes? Not so much. Even as he sheds his tie and loosens his top buttons, Simon is still struggling with a lifetime of behaviour habits ... those same habits that help each of us function in our respective worlds. Now that he's changed his society, so to speak, he has to learn all the cues and behavioural habits that everyone else has known since they were born.
In Firefly, both Simon and River are functioning as 'aliens'. It's just that Simon is a lot less alien to everyone than River.
And I agree that if Kaylee were simply looking for a quick screw, she'd have jumped Simon shortly after learning the girl in the box was his sister, not his concubine. But Kaylee is attracted to Simon in lots of different ways than she is used to: Simon is not overtly muscled like the 'original' Serenity mechanic ... he is not a hulking Jayne-man, nor is he an overly-practical man like Mal.
Simon, I think, is right to hold on to his own upbringing regarding treating Kaylee 'proper' because he likes her ... that it is even more important for him to do so now that he's in the Black. It would be different if he knew the 'rules' of the society he now lives in, but he doesn't ... so until that learning comes along, he has to approach Kaylee on the only terms he knows.
My $0.0074 (Canadian dollar is still worth less than US)
Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gunhand:
Gor are a series of really cheesy and mysogonistic (I never could spell that damn word) fantasy books from the '70s. Now I like my fantasy but Gor is...cheeeeeese. And not the good sort of cheese, it's the sort of cheese that makes you want to hit yourself with a hammer.
The guy that wrote them appearently had a leather fetish and thought he was Manly. Of course Robert E. Howard could have kicked his ass and was less of a momma's boy.
Zoid, I was kidding about the Gor stuff.
But somewhat OT ... yeah, Gor is for me the most bizarre series ever printed. The writing style is quite freaky ... for those unfamiliar with the style I *don't* recommend the books, but there is a gorgeous parody of his works here:
http://www.sexuality.org/l/bdsm/housegor.html
(And yes, the parody is rated "G" ... but the books aren't).
I'm not familiar with Robert Howard??? so I'll take your word on it that he could kick the Gor writer-guy's butt.
Cheers,
Annik
... my sister's a ship. We had a complicated childhood.
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Robert Howard created Conan (among other great pulp works) -- just so you know
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Robert E. Howard wrote the Conan (original and far superior to the later writers who did pastiches about Conan) books. He also wrote the tales of Solomon Kane, witch hunter. Pulpy goodness.
But he also had asthma, was extremely anti-social (to the point of being terrified of people) and lived with his mother until he died in his early '30s. But he was also, oddly enough a fairly well ranked amateur boxer.
Strange world, but I still maintain he was more well adjusted and could kick the Gor guy's butt.
I definately wouldn't recommend the Gor books one iota, unless you were reading them as an excercise in how to not write fantasy. Well at least if you ever wanted a date again and/or didn't mind having people throw rotten vegetables at you on a daily basis. On the other hand if you've never read the original Conan books and just know him from Ahnald then you really should, he was a much different and deeper character in Howard's vision and I highly, highly recommend them.
Incidentally he was also a pen-pal, friend and collaborator with H.P. Lovecraft as well, they shared a lot of theories on the Uncaring Universe and his Conan stories have some subtle (and at times appearent) Cthulhu Mythos themes/vibes/references in them.
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"
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Still laughing at Queer Eye for Firefly, btw. Zoid, you're a genius.
Gunhand wrote:
Quote:
Women (for the most part) ain't as dumb as men, we'll go for just the pretty looks but for a woman it has to be more than that. Women's Lib aside there isn't a woman I've known (and I've known lots...coughcough) that doesn't like a man that can do things, and who is willing to balance that gentlemanly opening of doors thing with the ability to go completely batshit crazy caveman when the situation calls for it.
Yeah prettyboy looks help, and smarts, and a sense of humor but if you're less manly than she is well...you ain't going to get her respect let alone a foundation to build something else on. Women expect a man to be a man, and if he isn't well then no ammount of pretty looks or fat wallet is going to make her keep ya around.
Respectful, but vehement, disagreement.
Disclaimer: I'm obviously not claiming to speak for all/most women here, because IMNSHO your gender doesn't determine your attitude or outlook on such matters. Which is kinda my post in a nutshell, so if you want to skip the rest, feel free.
Personally, I think the manliness/effeminacy distinction is a nonsensical, socially-imposed piece of go-se that screws up more people than it helps. What is a man? It's anything a man *can* be, surely. There are no universally-applicable standards for this, any more than there are for what makes a woman. The Romans thought that wearing short tunics (i.e. skirts) was the ultimate expression of manhood (showing off one's legs), and trousers were a barbarian effeminacy. Ideals change. People are infinitely diverse.
Yes, some women I know *do* like the conventional 'manly' man type; plenty more (including, emphatically, myself) would prize braincells and conversational ability over unfeasibly large upper arms any day of the week. I don't want someone to hide behind. I'm quite capable of wiring plugs for myself. I want an intellectual challenge, not someone to put up shelves & squash spiders for me. Strength of character doesn't just consist in physical strength; indeed, quite often it's entirely the opposite.
Simon is unlike the other guys on the crew because they've all lived very different lives. He's not inadequate, or less 'manly' than they just because his education never required him to learn to shoot first and ask questions later. He may not be eminently suited to life aboard Serenity, but by the same token nothing in his life has prepared him to be so in the way that Jayne's or Mal's (or Zoe's) did. He has other strengths. It doesn't make him weak (as Mal observes at the end of of 'Serenity').
Incidentally, I'd be interested to know where Wash fits into your manliness schema... seems to me that the attraction to him is all about his humour, his loyalty and his caring. Yeah, so he fires a gun on occasion, but then so does his wife. It's not about Wash reclaiming some lost 'manly' side of himself when he goes back in to help Mal in 'War Stories' - it's about a newfound devotion to his captain, and about the things that sometimes *people* (not just men) have to do, when pushed.
While I'm here, I'm also a little surprised at how many people are quite happy to just label Simon 'socially incapable'. Yes, so he makes numerous stupid mistakes, but c'mon: he's *shy*, people! And completely out of his depth, to boot. His sister's a raving lunatic, half the crew are borderline hostile to him, and he's probably never even been off-planet before. He's a confused young man adrift in a world completely beyond anything he imagine.
Is, say, Mal any more capable of speaking to Inara in a meaningful manner? His confrontational banter is just as much a cover for what he doesn't feel able to say as are Simon's verbal fumbles. So? What else are Joss Whedon's series *about*, if not articulate people being reduced to babbling wrecks in the face of people they, y'know, um, *like*?
Sorry if some of that came across overly ranting, it's been a long day.
/ pure inte
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Well I think a lot of y'all (womenfolk) tended to concentrate on my "manly" bit a bit more than I intended. I said that humor, and brains and all that were as important as manliness, but that the manliness has to be there too as well. Without any manly qualities then what do you have? A funny guy that is afraid of his own shadow or a smart guy who can think up grand schemes yet can't ever act on them.
My point is hard to get across because I know what I mean in my head, and I've had many conversations on this subject with women on it and they can see my point when I talk to them about it. Guess I'm not so good at getting it across on a board. But darn it, I have to try.
Okay let's forget about Simon for a minute, and just think about the generic "guy". Generic Guy may have come from money or may not (personally I think that means diddly when it comes to personality and if it does it's usually bad and comes from the extremes of money) and he may have been born with an abundance of brains. So Generic Guy is really smart, so smart in fact that he tells people how smart he is. He's so smart that he can't even relate to people because he either thinks he's superior to them, or he is so wrapped up in thinking he just can't relate to anyone else. Is that a good thing? Generally no.
Take Generic Guy B, he was a little guy and got picked on in school, or his parents were both comedians, or God thought he had a funny nose, whatever; so he grows up never taking life seriously because anytime he has a problem dealing with life he turns it into a joke. He's a funny guy, can make anyone laugh at any time. But nothing is ever serious and everything's a game to him and he just gets through life being the clown. Is that a good thing? Generally no.
Take Generic Guy C, he works out, for some reason he strives to build himself up to be as strong, fast, agile as he can be. He probably did sports and was good at them. He sees life as a challenge and everything is a test to see if he can overcome it. If you get attacked by 88 Yakuza he's the guy you want fighting on your side and he'll probably be able to kick their asses. But no matter what everything to him is a challenge and something to be rolled over. Is that a good thing? Generally no.
Yeah I was being absolutist, which brings me to the point that a man has to be all of them as best he can, Generic Guy and his brothers B and C. You can't just get by on brains alone, or humor alone, or strength alone, if you do that you'll never succeed at anything. I'm not even talking about with women here, I'm talking about life. But I know some people who do throw everything behind one or the other, some people aren't strong enough but may be smart and funny enough to overcome that, or may not be smart but are strong and funny enough to overcome that, etc. in all the permutations.
Getting back to Simon now, I was harsh, and I admit it. But even though he's smart he isn't strong. I'm not talking Jayne or Book strong where he should be lifting weights or eating raw meat around a fire he built in the hold. I mean that when action is called for he tries to think his way out of it. He can do action but to me it seems that it is distasteful to him, not talking about violence specifically, I'm talking about action. As in acting, he'd rather spend the day thinking of 201 plans of action for a problem rather than just picking something and doing it. Yes he went on the Skyplex, yes he doped Jayne, but those were things that were either instigated by someone else (the acting part) or he knew he'd have backup on. With Kaylee no one is there to back him up, so he can't really act.
I'm probably digging myself deeper into a hole, but there is something about Simon that reminds me of Hugh Grant like I said before. The boy needs to DO something all on his own without going into Greek Tragedy levels of overthinking on it. "Doing" things doesn't come naturally to him and that's a serious flaw to me, which doesn't mean I don't like him as a character, flawed ones are good to watch,
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Gunhand,
Let me know if I've got this right. Your argument is that Simon is not a "man of action" because he thinks before he acts and tries to come up with the best plan before rushing to do something. As opposed to doing the wrong thing, so that he can say he's doing rather than thinking, and is therefore a man of action. How, precisely, is that a character flaw?
We've seen him act when he needs to -- attacking Dobson, attacking Jubal. Negotiating before he saves Kaylee. Fighting with the townfolk about his sister being a witch. Tending to the man in cardiac arrest in the hospital. There's also the whole breaking his sister out of the Academy. If all he ever did was think, he'd have realized that saving her and getting away with it was improbable, and he'd be somewhere still sitting around planning ways to save her and talking himself out of them.
Bear in mind, too, that Simon is not the person who gets to decide to take action. That's Mal, the captain.
Also, I don't buy your argument that the love of a wife is superior in any way to the love of a sister. A wife (or a husband) is, at least for the purposes of this discussion, someone you chose, someone you have things in common with. A sister is a person you're connected to through the randomness of DNA. You may love her, but you may not necessarily like her very much, and to give up everything for her, including very likely your chance to choose someone to spend your life, that's a sacrifice. Simon's love for his sister is not something that should be discounted because he didn't have to work to get her. If anything, loving her is more impressive than loving a wife, because he had no say at all in who his sister is.
And for the record, I've got a sister, got almost nothing in common with her, and love her dearly. I might be able to give my whole life for her, but I suspect that I'd be petty enough to remind her of the fact -- frequently.
Delia
___________________________________________
ANYA: Don't be ridiculous. Martha Stewart isn't a demon. She's a witch.
XANDER: Please, she-- Really?
ANYA: Of course. Nobody could do that much decoupage without calling on the powers of darkness.
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