Is There a Doctor in the House? (zoid post)
POSTED BY: zoid
UPDATED: Thursday, June 10, 2004 17:26
VIEWED: 12630
PAGE 3 of 8
Not quite Delia, thinking before you act is a good thing, if you don't think at all then you're Jayne which is usually a bad thing. I think he overthinks, that's what I was meaning.
I'm just not able to get what I mean across at all, so I'm just gonna bow out of here and have to use the "guy thing" that we get as a very weak version of women's intuition. It's like art, I know it when I see it and Simon just doesn't have it. For me at least.
I just can't get what I mean across for the trying, so I'm going to stop trying.
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"
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Gunhand:
I see what you're saying, but I would still spin things in a different direction. I agree that there's a need to combine action with ability, that you never get anywhere if you aren't prepared/able to follow through on your big ideas... but I fail to see how this applies more to a man than to a woman. Decisiveness, pragmatism and conviction are all strengths of character: but strengths of character for people *in general*, not just for men. Women, too, get bugger all if they sit back and dream rather than take action. It's just life.
To get back on topic, I agree that Simon is markedly hesitant through much of the series. However, I think he is - as some have pointed out - improving on this score towards the end. Like the way he deals with Jayne's betrayal: Simon may well have agonised offscreen over what to do, but in the end he knew that he had to take action, to try to reduce the chances of it happening again. So he did.
I suspect, again, that a lot of this is a question of context: in his own environment, the hospital in 'Ariel', Simon displays absolute single-mindedness and no hesitation before acting - as when he saves the patient's life and upbraids his doctor for incompetence. It's just a question of what you're used to and feel comfortable with. Look at Mal, Zoe and Jayne rehearsing their lines in the same episode - people we're used to seeing as models of calm and competence become nervous and extremely uncertain when faced with something outside of their accustomed way of doing things. It's very human. When they must take action with words rather than guns they're just as out of their depth as Simon is in the cargo bay with the Fed in 'Serenity'.
By the same token, check out Jayne's fumbling, uncertain efforts to help Kaylee in the engine room in 'Serenity'. Jayne is pretty much Mr Decisive in the rest of his normal life (if mainly because he doesn't have too many braincells to slow down his reactions), but ask him to do something he's never done before and of course he's hesitant.
Quote:
Basically a guy has to have all of those parts in some measure, and with Simon...well just like it's silly for us to be saying "what women want" when we aren't women, there's a guy thing where we see a guy and we either respect him as a man, or don't.
Maybe I'm getting pedantic now, but what I'm saying is that a guy's opinion on a guy, or a whole society of guys' opinions on guys, are not prescriptive (likewise women's views on women, if the distinction matters). These things are just one society's current categories, not absolutes, and 500 miles in any direction you're likely to find quite different opinions (particularly if said 500 miles lands you at the bottom of the ocean
). If you can't know what a woman wants because you aren't a woman, how can you know what a man wants who comes from a different background, a different religion, a different state?/ pure intentions, juxtaposed /
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Okay, I've got a couple thoughts about this (actually, I've got LOTS of thoughts - I'm a true introvert - I'm always thinking)
Well, Gunhand, please correct me if I'm wrong, but by 'manly' man, I don't think you mean a guy who squashes bugs and unstops drains, right? And at the risk of giving you too much credit
, I doubt you are equating a man's 'manliness' with his muscle mass. What I envisioned when you described 'manly' man had to do with what he does in dicey situations.
For example, I was at a concert once, right up front. Thirty minutes into the show, the mosh pit (directly behind my friend and I) degenerated into a brawl. I couldn't get out safely and I'm a pretty small female (5 foot tall). My friend - a not-too-big guy - stood behind me and braced his hands on the barrier in front of me and protected me from the crazed brawling maniacs that were slamming into us. He didn't "go batshit crazy caveman", but he did physically protect me when I was threatened and I think that is very 'manly'.
To be perfectly honest though, I admire that trait in everyone, male or female. Because of what I do for a living (ICU nurse), I am surrounded by many men and women who would more likely run into a burning building to help others than out of it.
Don't get me wrong. I can - and do - take care of myself. But Gunhand is right IMO in that not only will I do what needs to be done if my loved ones are threatened, but I would expect the man in my life to do so, too.
Now, having said that, I think Simon IS one of those people. He certainly doesn't do it with skill or finess, but he DOES do whatever he can to protect River. He engaged Jubal mentally and eventually physically (unarmed, no less) - even taking a bullet, for his sister. And I can't remeber which episode it was in, but he jumped from the catwalk onto ... was it Dobson in Serentiy? maybe ... to protect her. He is a man who can, and does "do things ... when the situation calls for it".
I agree, whole-heartedly, with you, Nic' about strength of character and intellectual challenge being of utmost import in a man. I have dated some wonderful men who really struggled with their inability to measure up to the conventional 'manliness standard'. They couldn't benchpress me (I did date one guy that could do that, but the thrill lasted about 30 seconds, and so did he). They didn't like majorleague baseball or football. But they were there for me when I needed them, as I was for them.
I also think that you make a good point, Nic', about Simon's social skills in this very unfamiliar environment. I can imagine Simon on Osiris. I think he was much smoother and probably very charming in the social situaions where he knew the 'rules' and what to expect. I do think that he was very focused on medicine, but believe me, even the quiet, serious young med staff get out and have a good time pretty regularly.
Simon is struggling to adapt to a totally foreign environment and that makes him akward and unsure at times, but he is meeting the challenges that come his way. He is becoming more self-assured and learning when to use physical means to confront problems. I think he is very 'manly'.
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Quote:
Cybersnark wrote:
Monday, May 31, 2004 03:33
I think the critical "manliness" scene for Simon was in Ariel, when he dropped everything to save that patient from his incompetent doctor. The tragic part is that Kaylee wasn't there to see it. Heck, even Jayne seemed in awe (and it was enough to snap River into full lucidity for the "first" time).
You make a great point. On the Serenity Simon is out of his element. I'm sure if "he had the time and the inclination" he could have swept any female in the immediate vicinity off her feet.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gunhand:
It's like art, I know it when I see it and Simon just doesn't have it.
Funny, I've usually heard that line about knowing something when you see it used about pornography . . . .
Sorry if I'm misreading you. Overthinking I will agree is a fault. But not one that I think Simon has.
I say we blame it all on Zoid. He started all this, and then he disappeared.
Delia
___________________________________________
ANYA: Don't be ridiculous. Martha Stewart isn't a demon. She's a witch.
XANDER: Please, she-- Really?
ANYA: Of course. Nobody could do that much decoupage without calling on the powers of darkness.
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Greetings, Fellow Browncoats!
It might've been interesting for Joss to have taken Simon's parents the other direction, instead of what must be seen as the prototypical, 'Mommy and Daddy don't really love us, all they care about is money' angle. Does anybody on this board, reading this thread, come from a wealthy family? Were your parents as blase about your well-being as Simon's parents are? I come from dirt-poor types, so I have no first hand knowledge; but, I am acquainted with a doctor whose only daughter was killed in an automobile accident. Let's just say that it made of him a shell of his former self. Based on that observation, I presume there are some wealthy parents of truly beloved children, and it would've been interesting to see them sacrifice their fortune and social standing (and maybe their lives) in an attempt to save River.
I'm not sure that Simon and River's parents were so concerned with money per se as they were with conforming to societal expectations/not rocking the boat. As if their view was that if the goverment had done experments on River, well then they should accept that as right and necessary. The goverment must have had good reasons and who were they to question that. They didn't approve of the way Simon was willing to kick and scream and get arrested and sacrifice his prestigous career. That was embarrassing.
It's odd, but I've known people who actually think like that.
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Is he gay? It's been suggested hereabouts; but just because he's very pretty, fastidious and well-dressed doesn't make him, er, well maybe it does. But I'd guess he's het'ro-, as well as metro-sexual.
I don't think so. Clearly he's attracted to Kaylee. He wouldn't be so clumsy and tongue-tied around her if he weren't interested in girls.
Quote:
I've played the 'fantasy episode' game before, and here's another: "Queer Eye for the Firefly". Simon analyzes and does makeovers for the other male cast members. SIMON: "Shepherd Book, I love the way your ensemble is coordinated in blacks and grays -- the little white choker is dreamy -- but your hair? Puh-leeze, girl! I've got two words for you: Oh, My, God!". Or how about, SIMON: "Jayne? Grrreat name! That's as in 'Mansfield', right? You know, she lost her head... And so will the girls when they see you in your new outfit! I've chosen a much tighter tee-shirt, chopped at the midriff to show off your scrumptious pecs and tummy, and some really tight shorts to accentuate your tushy. The combat boots can stay, et voila! An all-new Jayne that does his namesake proud. Grrrr!" (Okay, so maybe I do that too well) Point is, at some point JW is either gonna have to rough that boy up some, or 'out' him.
That would be hillarious!
. But JW already *has* roughed Simon up a bit, at least I think so.Quote:
Whenever I think of Kaylee's infatuation with Simon, two words immediately come to my mind: "Sure thing", and "Round heels", and "Slam dunk", and "Doesn't he like girls?" (Alright, that was more than two words, but they were in groups of two, um, for the most part) Seriously, how has he managed to queer that deal (pun intended)?
1. He's shy. 2. He doesn't want to "take advantage" of Kaylee, but isn't sure whether he's in a position to have a relationship with her (given that he's on the run and has sole responsibility for his nutty sister).
Quote:
Here endeth the long-winded, convoluted and twisted Part One of however-many-y'all-can-stand-plus-one parts. To all the Simon-loving girls hereabouts: nyah-nyah-ny-nyah-nyah! All us manly men (you know, those of us who are so manly that females are intimidated by our rugged manliness, and so, shun us as though we were filthy, hairy beasts... which, okay we are), we all know that deep down y'all want real men like us, not dandies with dainty features, soft hands and silk blouses like Simon. Am I right guys? (Hears crickets chirping,NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Hey zoid, nice to see one of your long involved posts again....still no conspiracy theory though:P
Anyway, not going to get into the manliness debate actually (although i want a guy w/ muscles and the ability for conversation for the record!), but reading through these posts, something occured to me - Simon's character is actually playing a very stereotyped Western Role -- bear w/ me if you've not been a Western fan. His character is seen mostly in series but also in the occasional movie - the rich journalist/banker/whatever that finds himself on the frontier and in an unknown land. He is for all intents and purposes a foreigner...and as such his intentions and manners seem foreign to the natives. So his attitude towards Kaylee and the crew is very understandable in that respect.
I'd also agree w/ those that point out that Simon does perform "manly" acts throughout the series .. most are in relation to his sister, but i think that is mostly because the one person on the ship he has the closest ties to is her. all the other episodes (especially Hero of Canton), he is more out of his element than he is on the ship..and therefore stands out. HOwever, even in Hero, he doesn't behave poorly..i don't recall too much unmanly groveling while he was facing possible death at the hands of a one-eyed psychopath.
In all, I think it would be interesting to see what happens w/ the development of his character. Thinking back, hated Wesley at first but the past 2 seasons have loved the dark places that Joss and co. took him. I think Simon has that potential more than maybe even the rest of the crew for the simple reason that he has never had to face the darker emotions..his society has protected him from that.
Wow, still amazed that I didn't automatically spot simon straight off as such a stereotype. Either I was too dazzled by everything else or Joss did an incredible job...probably a little bit of both.
The Strawberry Monkey
http://p221.ezboard.com/bfireflyfanficawards
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Delia wrote:
Quote:
...I say we blame it all on Zoid. He started all this, and then he disappeared...
Heh-heh, yes, I did. But then again, I warned in that opening post that I had plans (actually, it's more accurate to say my wife had plans) for the whole day today. So, it's not so much a case of desertion, as it is abduction...
That said, I've read all your wonderful posts, and I'm gratified to see that folks have taken a new tack in this discussion of Simon, instead of just rehashing what we've already said in previous discussions (as I feared might be the case). Bravo!
To Gunhand, I feel your pain, my brother. I've left you here all day, surrounded by females and trying to explain the sense men have for other men's essential natures. It's kinda like trying to describe 'red' to a blind man, ain't it? But, never fear. We have powerful allies in this quest: Analogical thinking and empathy. It may still be a hopeless quest -- especially since there seems to be something about Sean Maher or the character he portrays that evokes feminine protectiveness -- but, I'm gonna give it the good old La Manchan try.
What I believe Gunny was trying to say -- and as I said earlier -- is that there's just something not quite right about Simon. Not that he's a villain, or a coward, or a prissy lilly-liver. He's just not hitting on all 8 cylinders, as my Daddy used to say. This is a guy thing. We can tell when a man ain't quite right.
So here's the analogy. Women can tell when other women are being fakes. Men may say -- and sometimes correctly -- that those women are just jealous; but, usually it's because those women have an insight into other women's behavior, which men do not and cannot have.
And here's the part where empathy parlays the analogy: Female readers, if you have gotten a sense of what Gunny was talking about now, and can empathize based on your own experience of 'that feeling' about other women -- the ones you can trust, the ones you can tell secrets to, and vice versa -- apply that now and walk a mile in a guy's moccasins.
I'd trust Malcolm Reynolds to lead me into the gates of Hell; not just because Firefly needs me to in order to work as a premise for 'suspension of disbelief', but because Fillion's portrayal of Whedon's exceptionally drawn character have created that 'feeling' in me. I have a similar 'feeling' for Book; he's a man of integrity and substance. The fact that some hereabouts think it's possible that he's an evildoer baffles me.
Wash is all man because he's a total loony, but he's honest about it (and every thing else) and most importantly from the manhood argument, he's honest with himself about it. I 'feel' that Wash would never tell a lie, not even a little falsehood to cover his ego when he miscalculates ("Well, maybe I should just go do that then!"). Wash is my personal hero, because his sense of playful irony and steadfast fidelity to his wife resonate in my own personality. Jayne -- as I've said before -- is the human equivalent to a German Shepherd. Great in a fight because he won't think before he wades in, but you don't want to leave your steak where he can get at it the first time you take your eye off of him either.
Simon needs to get laid. Sorry, that's just how I 'feel'. I've read all your well-thought and -written justifications: he's too gentlemanly (zoid recalls many boorish or insensitive remarks made by Simon and discards the notion that those remarks might be considered chivalrous in different social contexts); he would probably give Atherton Wing a run for his money socially if he were in his native 'high society' element (zoid thinks, no, Atherton Wing can charm a girl as sophisticated as Inara out of her knickers, while in the process of being a boor; Simon can't even talk Kaylee out of hers, and she's not wearing any). I don't doubt that many attractive young debutantes have approached Simon, with thoughts of landing a young doctor; but at some point, he's going to open his mouth and say the most assi
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"You can have my hawaiian shirts when you pry them from my cold, lifeless, er, yes Zoe?"
"Please get rid of the shirts, Dear."
"Yes, Lamby-toes." Hurt look.
"Look, you can keep the dinosaurs..."
BTW, excellent post, Zoid. Xiexie!
Vince the alien zookeeper
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Zoid, thank God you're back, I was getting worried I was going to wind up corpsified.
I think if we had a seminar, and I could just talk I may be able to get what I mean across, words on a screen just ain't doing it for me today for some reason.
Thanks for the backup on the just knowing though. It isn't something logical or anything it's just a feeling I got about the guy. It's kinda like women's intuition but the opposite, more...visceral maybe?
And to take it a step further I'm right with you with Mal and Book, loyal guys who'd be right there for me, same with Wash. When I think of these characters one of the things I think to myself is,"Could this guy be my friend?" And out of all of the male cast Simon is the one who makes me say no. All based on a feeling.
Hell Jayne could even be my friend, but I'd definately be waiting for the Interesting Day. Hell a drag down, no holds barred fight with Jayne would be something I'd almost look forward to, because it'd be Interesting. Punch me, stab me, drag me through the mud but for Gods' sake don't bore me. Same with Badger, Badger could be my friend too, but I'd always be waiting to see what he pulled from under that hat of his.
Simon though, he'd be mid-speach and I'd be saying,"Would you just shut the 
up already?" or if I was feeling generous use the old stand by,"Do something." The thing is he reminds me of a friend of a friend, and I get the same "vibe" from that guy. He has the same attitude, same mannerisms and same self-important streak in him. I can handle being around him (via our common friend) for about an hour and then I have to get away. Any longer and...well, see the above sampled dialog.
Okay now I'm running back to my bunker again, I'll get the drinks ready by the time you have to exfiltrate yourownself Zoid.
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"
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