Is There a Doctor in the House? (zoid post)
POSTED BY: zoid
UPDATED: Thursday, June 10, 2004 17:26
VIEWED: 12630
PAGE 4 of 8
Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
In a related way, perhaps one or more female writers would give their 'feelings' about the essential nature of the female characters on the show (to include YoSaffBridge and Nandi), similar to the way I did the guys? Which ones do you consider trustworthy with your boyfriend/husband? Which would you most likely tell your darkest secrets to, without fear of them becoming public knowledge? Which is the most attractive, as opposed to the most pretty? That kind of thing, but not necessarity limited to a specific thing. I don't know about Gunhand, but I'd be very interested in y'all's 'inside scoop' on them.
Ask and ye shall receive. Or at the very least, I'll do my best.
Who would I trust with a husband/boyfriend? A little difficult, because I wouldn't want a husband I didn't trust, nevermind who he was with. But in the interest of entering into the spirit of the question . . . Zoe, without a doubt. Zoe does not strike me as the type to make a move on another woman's husband. (Kill him, yes, seduce him, no.) She's got too strong a concept of loyalty, and she'd never do that to Wash. They might fight, and they might have all sorts of problems, but I can't see her ever cheating on Wash, at least not in a sex sort of way. (I can envision a situation in which, if Wash and Zoe's marriage is crumbling, her turning to Mal for more emotional support, which I think Wash could view as "cheating." But I'm getting way off topic.)
I would most likely trust Kaylee, assuming she knew he was "taken." Otherwise, I think she'd be flirting in her oh-so-adorable way. Not Inara or Nandi. I suspect they take married clients, without asking too many questions. YoSafBridge I would not trust with a husband, a boyfriend, or a pet rock.
River's a bit a mystery, but I would probably trust her with my husband. For one thing, I have what I call the milk-and-cookies response to River, which means my reaction to her is to want to take her home, feed her milk and cookies, and make everything okay, an almost maternal response. (I tend to have that reaction to anyone I see playing Hamlet, too.) So I'd trust her with a husband, since I wouldn't see her as a rival. As for deep dark secrets, I would trust River EXCEPT that I'd be worried about what might come spilling out of her mouth while she was out of her head. Although River would probably already know them all, mind-reading genius that she is. I don't know how relaxed I'd ever be around River, she's too unpredictable.
Inara I would tell almost anything. Inara is a stay-up-all-night-gossiping kind of person. Though I suspect you'd do most of the talking, as Companions don't kiss and tell. (Still, she might share her views on non-clients, like the rest of the crew.) I'd be curious to see Inara in a girl friend sort of situation -- shoes off, curled up on her couch, sipping tea and giggling. I think she'd be a lot of fun.
I wouldn't quite go to Kaylee. She's too open, she doesn't have secrets (that we know of) and so I'm not sure how good she's be at keeping them. As for Zoe, I suspect she could keep a secret till Hell froze over, but I can't quite see myself ever choosing to confide in her in the first place. She's not a "girl's girl," and I'd be worried that she'd find my secrets boring or trivial, and that they would somehow diminish me in her eyes. Zoe is one I would least be myself around; I'd be the most concerned about how she saw me.
Nandi I'm not sure on, and again, I wouldn't trust Saffron with the latest news off the Cortex, let alone anything I was trying to keep private.
Were I choosing a friend from among the Firefly cast, it would most likely be Inara (see above on deep dark secrets). If I had a problem I wanted solved, I'd go to Zoe. She strikes me as the practical one, who is going to find a solution without wasting time, without tears, and without any fuss. If I had a problem and wanted sympathy about it (and sometimes, women don't want a solution, we just want to vent, which
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Quote:
Zoid says: Women can tell when other women are being fakes. Men may say -- and sometimes correctly --
Hmm..not sure I agree w/ you on all that 100% but let's test that and everyone give their impression of the whole crew. As a lady who admits she can't read others well period, I'm just gonna jump at the guys b4 making a fool of myself w/ the womenfolk.
Mal--if I met him on the street or a bar, wouldn't trust him: he's enough of a smooth talker and charismatic enough that I might suspect I was being played. Granted, the show doesn't indicate he is, but I'm talking first impressions.
Wash--Can I just say tries too hard? Dated too many guys like this and it just grates. However, would definitely trust as a friend after a time and reminds me of alot of my guy friends.
Jayne--if I may, typical stereotyped man. Don't know how much else to say to it other than i think if you were in a relationship w/ him, he'd probably be as faithful as that means to his mind, but as a friend, not sure i'd trust him 100%
Simon--uptight, science nerd, not comfortable around girls, Can I say i know too many men like this? Secret is to get them to see you as a sis and all is fine. Course, they cross the line and it turns creepifying, but well...
Book--again, most likely trust him at least how we see him in the episodes.
Okay, womenfolk....
Zoe--has alot of the characteristics of most of my friends and really appreciate the nononsense ness of her character. Definitely would be my choice for trustworthiness and advice. If I got to that point, would be the one i'd prefer to hang out w/ and all the rest. And yes, I'd trust my husband/bf around her (although gotta say, that's a question that well if i'm worried about it, i don't know how long they'd stay my s.o.!)
Kaylee--okay, she really grates on me at times, but she's sweet, and she's honest..those are my two main qualifications for women friends. don't know that i'd trust her w/ secrets (strikes me as the big mouth type) but still.
River--well, assuming she didn't try to kill me we'd be peachy keen.
Inara--would definitely take me a while to warm up to her. Comes across as less than genuine at times and I sincerely dislike the game playing woman...not for a sincere good friend anyway.
Saffron--yeah right..wouldn't trust her w/ my address..be cleaned out w/in a jiff.
Nandi--actually like her better than inara..tells it straight. Strikes me alot like a more feminine Zoe in a way.
Anyways, that's my two cents. Course, qualified by the fact that I admit one hundred percent to being a bad judge of people off of first impressions.
The Strawberry Monkey
http://p221.ezboard.com/bfireflyfanficawards
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Delia wrote:
Quote:
Is that what you had in mind, Zoid?
Delia
P.S. I like the last quote. Are you still planning to give us a DVD Commentary-style post on them all next week?
Yes, yes, yes! (zoid does happy dance) Thank you so much, Mistress of the Tomes! What fascinates me most about so many of these characters is how men and women can see them so differently and yet still have a kind of baseline feeling for them that crosses even the gender barrier.
For instance, while Gunhand and I both pretty much agree in our assessments of Jayne and Simon, he states that he doesn't like or couldn't befriend Simon, but that he could Jayne. I'm exactly the opposite. I could be friends with Simon because -- even though he can't quite seem to get out of his own way, except in an OR -- he is honest and loyal and well-intentioned. As an older guy, I see his great weakness is not one of character, so much as one of inexperience. I think he'd clear up nicely if he got some 'experience', as Jimi put it.
Jayne, on the other hand, is a character I can see myself pal-ing around with, but never trusting enough to be a friend. It should be noted that I'm talking about Jayne, not Adam Baldwin whose posts I've read over on the OB. While I generally disagree with trading barbs on political topics, camouflaged by Internet anonymity, I can't say that I substantively disagree with his observations. He seems -- from this incomplete and myopic viewpoint -- like a down-to-earth and fun guy, a guy I'd like to sit in a quiet bar with and shoot the sh*t. But Jayne? He cheats at cards and just about everything else. In real life, I don't see myself confidentially associated with someone so weak of character. Oddly, even though I 'feel' he's a man by definition in a way Simon is not, I'd trust the boy Simon a lot sooner than I would the man they call Jayne.
Again, thank you for your responses, Delia. I am fascinated by how the female mind works, and the subtle and not-so-subtle differences between that process and the process of male mental conception. You have given me a valued bit of data toward unraveling more of that mystery.
I will not take strong exception to the notion that culture defines gender roles. I will however opine that males and females are distinguishable beyond cultural delineations, thus: Females of our species are physiologically influenced by estrogen, probably as strongly as males are influenced by testosterone. Too much testosterone in a male makes him aggressive and unreliable. Boxers abstain from sex because they know it makes them meaner than snakes. Prolonged abstention from sex for males can have the reverse effect and render a man uncertain and docile (some escapees from religious cults in the US which bar male acolytes from engaging in sex have reported that their beards stopped growing).
Think of it as a drug addiction: Estrogen for females, testosterone for males. Other physiological differences -- only siring offspring vs. having to bear them for nine months and then having to care for them for an extended period of time -- have hardwired male and female perceptions and thought processes differently as well. Not so much "Women Are From Venus, Men Are From Mars", as it is just a case that men are predisposed to violence, while women are wired for caregiving.
Lastly, yes, I will be posting a very brief illumination of what I was driving at with the 'future quotes' next week sometime. Frankly, I was kinda dreading the response to this last one by River; but thus far, I could hear a pin drop. Now, I'm confused...
Respectfully,
zoid
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"I knew a man once. History will never recall him, or what he gave to make us free. That's the way he wanted it. But as long as I live I'll remember, and he'll never truly die."
- River, from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard
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Disclaimer: I am a girl.
What I see when I see Simon (and Jayne and to a certain extent, Wash) is a boy. When I see the Captain or Book, I see men. Not "manly men doing manly things in manly ways with other manly men" but adults. I think Simon has the potential to grow up (and Wash to finish becoming an adult--remember Dr. Who: Just because I'm an adult doesn't mean I can't act childish.) but I'm not sure that Jayne does.
As for the women... I personally relate more to and would rather be friends with the Zoe character than any of the other women. Kaylee is just too perky; she'd drive me insane inside a week. Inara would be someone I'd envy, I think, because she's a lot of things I'm not. River... I don't know how I'd characterize her, since who she is now is probably not her real persona. But she could be interesting to hang out with.
All my life I wanted to be somebody. I guess I should have been more specific.
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Zoid, I can see the opposite way we'd view Simon and Jayne. I can even see your point, and like I said I wouldn't trust Jayne as far as I could throw him...so maybe just maybe 6 feet of trust if I was allowed to use some of my more underhanded and dirty throwing styles. 
Now Simon on the other hand, he grates on me. But I'll concede after he grows up some he may be tollerable. So I suggest a mentor for Simon, I'm thinking a dual Mentoring program. Book on one hand to get him to realise he's allowed to have emotions even if he's supposedly smart (3% and all, not sure how smart that makes him <-- sarcasm) and for his other mentor...Nope not Jayne! Ha! Caught y'all didn't I? Nope for his other mentor. Khan. Yeah you read that right, Khan. The Man. Now I don't care for Star Trek much but that man is just what Simon needs to pep himself up some. Do a Khan-Book mentor session with him for a couple years and I may just be able to have a full conversation with him without threating to do something painful to him. 
Now for my part about the women...Honestly I wouldn't want to marry any of them on the show. What? Have I lost my mind? Nope. A bit of grappling, sure, but none of them are my type enough to make me want to marry them. Maybe Zoe, but she'd have to lighten up a little bit, or Kaylee but she'd have to serious up a little bit. Inara would drive me to drink and River would drive me to drink more and then kill me with her mind. Maybe Saffron, don't make faces, because she's a damn fine looking woman and...I know I can't trust her as far as I can throw her, which isn't all that bad when you know it up front, date yeah, marry nope.
And that's my generally useless further contribution to the thread.
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"
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Still not convinced that it's something intrinsic to our genders that enables us to give unique perspectives on the characters - much more about our personal experience and the types of people we tend to spend time with, I would've thought. It doesn't take a girl to spot that YoSafBrig is trouble, or a guy to see Jayne's coyote morals. But, hey, have banged that drum quite enough in this thread already, so... FWIW, here's my take on the characters, in no particular order:
Book - mildness hiding quiet strength, and some possibly questionable motives. On first impression I'd probably be inclined to trust him and share quite a bit with him; but 'getting to know him' through the course of the series has made me warier. He's a man with secrets, and people with secrets put me off sharing mine. That said, I admire his strong self-awareness.
Jayne - the type of guy I tend to hit with pool cues. That or I'd take the Wash approach... mock him with my ability to string together sentences. He's funny, and his crush on Kaylee is kinda endearing, but I wouldn't want to have to rely on him.
Kaylee - I adore Kaylee in episodic instalments, but if I had to live with her, the incessant chirpiness and cutesiness would drive me up the wall. She'd be fun to laugh with sometimes, and her earthiness is refreshing, but I couldn't imagine having a really serious conversation with her. There are times when the last thing you want is 'cheering up'. 
That said, she's still young, right?
Zoe - action lady! First reaction: impressed, slightly intimidated. Then you realise she's got a (nicely dry) sense of humour and a strong sense of loyalty (honour?), and you'd get along fine. Her no-nonsense outlook would be an extremely welcome antidote to Kaylee...
Simon - I've already outlined my thoughts above, but briefly: I like Simon. He needs to grow up somewhat, but he's intelligent and loyal. His aloof/shy attitude would frustrate me at first, but his sense of humour would completely appeal: dry, detached, clever, and slightly self-conscious - even when he's being forced around the ship at gunpoint by Jubal Early.
River - hard to tell, really. She's still more a child than a devloped personality. Given the flashback scene to her as a kid ('Safe'?), she wasn't exactly operating on the same level as everyone else even before she got turned into The Human Computer. I'd want to listen, but not to talk with her that often.
Inara - had the potential to be very unlikeable, but she's warm and witty enough (right from her "Hey, you" to Kaylee in 'Serenity') to make it plain that there's a human being under the artifice. I'd let her do my hair. Capable, independent, and sharp-witted; I liked her more and more as the series went on.
Wash - he really is a blond, cleverer Xander, isn't he? I respond to him in much the same way. He's funny, loyal and big-hearted, I'd love to count him as a friend - but his constant harping on his insecurities would definitely irritate at close quarters. As someone pointed out further up this thread, he tries too hard.
Mal - hmm. I showed a few episodes of Firefly to a friend recently, and she was fascinated by Mal's leadership technique. Her conclusion was that everyone on the crew was just a little bit in love with him... and I think she's quite right. He has an allure to him that inspires confidence and loyalty. Whether or not you like him (and he'd be quite hard to like, at first), you have to admire his conviction, his inner strength, and his devotion to his 'people'. Then, as you get to know him, you see that he's a mass of contradictions, doubt and secret pain - and what girl doesn't love that? Seriously, though, self-doubt born of self-awareness is every bit as compelling as bullish confidence. To act in spite of that is true strength of character, IMHO.
I see Nandi as very much a female version of Mal. She's another one who both gives and inspires loyalty. Both are the type of person you'd trust with your life, if it ever became necessary - and follow to the ends of
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Zoid,
Wow! I have been the cause of a happy dance. How very exciting.
As for the River quote, I wouldn't worry too much. I'm not sure where else you've posted them, but the memorial day thread seemed the wrong place to comment, and there was too much else going on here to get to them. Since I have gotten to them, however, I'll digress further. I'm busy spinning theories on who River could be talking about; I'll give you my favorite, so you can tell me how wrong I've gotten it. She is talking about Shepherd Book, who gave up his life (as Book) to become Richard Wilkins again.
As for the insight into the female mind, don't give that post too much credit. It is a rambling meander I wrote exhausted and up with insomnia, although that actually might mean that it's more likely to provide insight, now that I think about it, since I was too tired to edit myself very much. I was a little surprised, honestly, by some of my responses, I'd never really thought about Inara as being the person I'd pick as friend before. But I'm sticking to it.
I haven't commented on most of the men, but since he's being held up as the Anti-Simon, I'll give you my impressions of Jayne. Jayne is, on the surface, untrustworthy, uncouth, uneducated and unrepentant about any of those things. But I think there's a lot going on under the surface, and I'd have been curious to see what they did with Jayne as the series went on.
Jayne cheats at cards, and "the money was too good" where River and Simon are concerned, but I suspect that if you could become someone or something that Jayne truly cared about, he'd be among the most loyal on the crew, because once he decided that about you, that is what you would be, and he wouldn't rethink it.
For example, watch him with Kaylee. Try to imagine Jayne turning on Kaylee. I can't. Can't think of situation in which he would betray her (except that by betraying any of the crew, you betray not only Mal but all the rest, but I think that concept is a bit beyond Jayne, honestly). You see it in the letter from home, and the wearing of that ridiculous hat from Mama. His mother sent him a hat, he declared it pretty cunning, put it on. You ever wonder what he might have said about that hat if Wash had been the one wearing it? I think you see it, too, in his relationship with Book, and in his guilt/grief over the mudder who took the shot for him.
The problem is, unless you were one of those things Jayne truly cared about (or so wealthy you would never have to worry about his selling his loyalty elsewhere), then you're on the level of cheating at cards. But if you were someone Jayne cared about, I suspect there's very little he wouldn't do for you. As far as husband/boyfriend material, I'll actually take my text from his reaction to Saffron. Okay, he went about it badly -- the "Then can I know her?" was crass and I think I speak for most women in the 'verse when I say that offering to trade a gun for us might not be the swiftest way to our hearts.
BUT, look at his lines in the rest of the scene -- "Damnit, Mal, I'd treat her okay," and "I'll protect her." Do you doubt him? I didn't, even in a scene being played for comedy. Jayne would probably make a very loyal, good husband who be completely wrapped around his wife's little finger. And the uncouth and uneducated thing, I suspect she could change that, or at least make some dents.
He's still not my type, but there's some rambling analysis of Jayne to add to your hints into the female mind. (Good luck with that, by the way, but don't spend too much time on it, I don't know that we're meant to understand each other too well.)
Delia
___________________________________________
ANYA: Don't be ridiculous. Martha Stewart isn't a demon. She's a witch.
XANDER: Please, she-- Really?
ANYA: Of course. Nobody could do that much decoupage without calling on the powers of darkness.
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Three thoughts I had on this:
1) GUNHAND, I get what you're trying to say in comparing Simon to Hugh Grant, but remember one thing about the man: the most "manly" thing he ever did, getting caught with the hooker, was what cost him one of the most beautiful women in the world.
2) Zoe's not very feminine. Do we hold her to the same standards as we hold Simon?
3) I always thought Simon's parents were afraid of River. Her father is happy to give presents to Simon in the flashback of them as children, btu seems resistant to give River anything. Simon is smart, but no smarter than Dad. River is something they don't understand. So they love Simon, but are relieved to be rid of River. And when Simon risks his career for her, the father doesn't want any part of it. He's content to put her away, where he doesn't have to face her. So I don't think it's about money. I think it's about fear of the unknown.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
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Okay, I kind of hestitate to do this, because it's gonna open all sort of discussion, but the librarian in me needs to fix this quote, from Basket Case by Green Day.
Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
I went to a whore,
She said my life's a bore.
The actual line, (and this emphasis was placed in the liner notes, I think, it was my sister's CD and I haven't seen it since high school) is
"I went to a whore, HE said my life's a bore."
Y'all have fun with it.
Delia
___________________________________________
ANYA: Don't be ridiculous. Martha Stewart isn't a demon. She's a witch.
XANDER: Please, she-- Really?
ANYA: Of course. Nobody could do that much decoupage without calling on the powers of darkness.
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Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:
Three thoughts I had on this:
1) GUNHAND, I get what you're trying to say in comparing Simon to Hugh Grant, but remember one thing about the man: the most "manly" thing he ever did, getting caught with the hooker, was what cost him one of the most beautiful women in the world.
Hmmmm. I guess I don't consider getting a blow job from a prostitute to be especially "manly," at least, not in so far as my understanding of the term goes. I'd like to know what the guys here abouts consider to be the (concise) efinition of "manly" (and no worries, Gunhand, to paraphrase Mal, you're far to pretty for us to let get corpsified).
___________________________________________
ANYA: Don't be ridiculous. Martha Stewart isn't a demon. She's a witch.
XANDER: Please, she-- Really?
ANYA: Of course. Nobody could do that much decoupage without calling on the powers of darkness.
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