Obama's speech, and my daughter's tears

POSTED BY: RocketJock
UPDATED: Sunday, March 30, 2008 15:32
VIEWED: 11731
PAGE 1 of 1

ROCKETJOCK

Saturday, March 22, 2008 6:12 AM

First off, I'd like to introduce you to my family.

I'm half of a salt-and-pepper marriage. (I'm the salt.) I was raised in darkest suburbia, observing the civil rights movement mostly though the medium of an 18-inch B&W tv. I think the first black person I ever met face-to-face was my fifth grade teacher.

My wife grew up in the ethnic enclaves of Southern California. She lived through the Watts riot, and has memories of a childhood bus trip through Jim Crow country where she accidentally drank from the wrong fountain. (Her mother nearly pulled her arm off jerking her away to safety.)

We have two kids, both mixed-race. One is a grown man, raising a family of his own. The other, our daughter, not quite of drinking age yet, still lives with us.

As you might guess, the subject of race in American society is one that we've got a slightly unusual, if not unique, perspective on. We've developed quite an assortment of family in-jokes on the subject. (It's nicely ironic, for example, that I'm the only one in the family who likes watermelon.)

I've probably had more exposure to the Black Evangelical tradition than most white guys. Even before I met my wife, a lifelong interest in comparative religion led me to attend an old-fashioned Rock-Baptist service in Meridian Mississippi, on a side of town where an unescorted white man probably shouldn't have gone any other day of the week--but on Sunday, all were welcome.

It was a definite eye-opener. Until then, I'd thought that scene with James Brown in The Blues Brothers was fiction! And since then, attending various weddings, etc., on my wife's side of the family has done nothing but expand my horizons.

So when all the flap about Rev. Wright began to develop, I was naturally intrigued. The Youtube clips and TV news sound bites struck me as being a tempest in a teapot (pretty obviously cherry-picked for maximum out-of-context shock value), but I realized how much gravitas they might hold for someone unfamiliar with the black church experience. I wondered how Obama would respond.

Well, we all know the answer to that now.

I'd read the text of Senator Obama's speech on the subjects of Rev. Wright, and of American race relations, while at work. Once I got home, I pulled the video up, to share it with my wife and daughter.

We heard him speak of the necessity of context in understanding a complex man who he obviously feels a great kinship with, despite disagreeing with him on many things. It sounded fairly reasonable to me -- and having done some research, knowing that Rev. Wright had been invited to the White House by Bill Clinton himself in 1998, and that John McCain's declared spiritual advisor, Reverend Rod Parsley, has some pretty outlandish conspiracy theories himself -- I figured he'd said just about as much as the topic deserved.

But then he moved on to other issues.

When he spoke of the difference a generation's experience can make in our view of the world, I understood. My father was as even-tempered a fellow as I've ever met, and everything I know about patience and the wisdom of perseverance comes from him. But I have a distinct memory from the late 1960's of him saying some things about blacks that I have a hard time reconciling with the man I know he was. But then I remember that he was born in 1910, and I cut him some slack. When Obama spoke of his grandmother, and the love she had for him, and the emotional disconnect he felt when she displayed the feet of clay that we all share -- I knew what he meant.

When he spoke of the historic forces that had shaped Rev. Wright's attitudes, my wife was calling out "Yes!" and pumping the air. She lived through those times, gentlefolk, and knows that, if you haven't walked that particular mile in those specific shoes, you'd better be careful about having opinions about what theories deserve the tinfoil hat, and which don't. She doesn't believe the same things the Reverend does -- Hell, she's not even a Christian -- but she was in the midst of many of the same pres

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, March 22, 2008 9:23 AM

Interesting...

The simplest way to subvert the whole issue is to just regard other people as individual human beings, which is what I have always done.

That's why I have some trouble with the concepts involved in racism as a whole, it's not like religion or political bent, it's not something the person themself decided - that they would look different than me, be darker or lighter in complexion, genetics chose that, not them, and thus it has utterly nothing to do with how I regard them as a person, only their behavior does.

But yanno, one doesn't really have to understand racism to find those who practice it a pack of idiots.

I catch occasional crap driving a cab in certain areas, sure - but it's an easy answer, I ain't never done nothin personally against them, they ain't never done nothin personally against me, and only an idiot somehow manages to find a way to create a problem out of that.

Like I said, the whole concept is idiotic, one can maybe, maybe, make a case for cultural misunderstandings, but pure racism makes utterly no sense whatsoever.

I just wish other folk would get that, some days.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, March 22, 2008 9:50 AM

Thanks for sharing. Racisism is anacronistic bullshit and really needs to come to an end, and so too is getting passed up for a job because the company needs to fill government quotas and your white skin doesn't fit the bill. Hate crimes should not ever be tried as hate crimes, because a crime is a crime is a crime and should be punished for it based simply on the fact that one person wronged another and broke the law in doing so.

I don't trust the man though. I trust him even less because of the hold he seems to have over so many people. At least most of us are in agreement that George W. Bush can't be trusted at all.

Don't EVER trust a politician.... particularly one from Illinois and the Mayor Daily Democratic Machine.

I'll be voting for Mayor McCheese come November.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

PIRATECAT

Saturday, March 22, 2008 3:32 PM

Prejudice-prejudge, Bigotry- all you can eat catfish night nope not eaten there, Racism-darwin's theory proves I'm right in my superiority. The forests are cut down but the old stumps are still their with moss on em. Blacks say the same thing whites say cause their my friends. It was so simple when Ike Turner was the most hated black man in America. The good ole days when everybody piled on.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

HKCAVALIER

Saturday, March 22, 2008 3:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I'll be voting for Mayor McCheese come November.

Another victim of the McCheese propaganda machine, sounds like to me. And this from the man who said "never trust a politician!" You obviously have some reading to do: http://www.dannebohm.com/mayormccheeseandcivilunrest

http://ollysonions.blogspot.com/2008/01/education-standards-scandal-in
.html

Seriously, though. I thought it was a very important speech and one no other candidate could have made. I think Jon Stewart summed it up best: "So, at 11 a.m. on a Tuesday, a prominant politician spoke to Americans about race as though they were adults."

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SIGNYM

Saturday, March 22, 2008 3:48 PM

I missed the first few minutes of Obama's speech, but managed to catch most of it.

Up until then I thought Obama was an empty suit. Someone who said pleasant, nice-sounding but essentially meaningless things to get elected. But when Obama chose to tackle racism and poverty head-on, he earned my vote.

"The enemy" is not black or white or brown or young or old or male, female, straight or gay. We all have far more in common that what separates us.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

LEADB

Saturday, March 22, 2008 7:25 PM

I thought he definitely stepped up to the plate. I had been worried he didn't have the chops to handle the controversy; I think he did well.

KIRKULES

Saturday, March 22, 2008 8:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:

I'm just looking to state that, whatever his political fortunes may turn out to be, in his speech, Barack Obama said truths that the country has needed put on the table of discourse for too long! And whether he wins the nomination, or the general election, or not, our nation owes him a debt of gratitude for daring to speak the complex and fundamental truths of a complex and fundamental issue.

I think the reason this speech will hurt Obama's chances of getting elected is not because of the content of his speech, or the content of Wright's sermons for that matter. The problem is the idea that we need to have more discussions about race in this country. We've been talking about race in this country non-stop for my entire life and I'm sick of it. I think a lot of other Americans are also. Bringing up race just leads to the inevitable finger pointing that follows. I'm tired of being told I'm a racist because of things that happened before my birth. The black community needs to take a look in the mirror and start to realize that many of the residual effects of racism from the past are perpetuated and exacerbated by Democrat politicians like Obama using race for political gain. Obama wont get more white votes by bring up a subject that has been used by politicians to make white people feel guilty and uncomfortable their entire lives. Many of us were raised from birth to believe that all men are equal and have lived our entire lives believing that. It doesn't help the cause of blacks to lump us all together and label us racists just because of the color of our skin. I'm not saying that is what Obama is doing, but Rev. Wright and others are. Just the fact that this subject has been brought up at all is enough to lose the election for Obama in my opinion.

TANKOBITE

Saturday, March 22, 2008 9:18 PM

Not going to get too into this (not a big fan of politics over the internet) but I did find one part of his speech funny: the part where he claimed he had

Quote:
a white grandmother who worked on a bomber assembly line at Fort Leavenworth while he was overseas.

Take it from a person from Ft. Leavenworth area that's plain wrong.
That aside-I'm reading the speech now and it just doesn't speak to me, to be honest.

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

RUE

Saturday, March 22, 2008 9:28 PM

Being the child of Polish immigrants I had absolutely nothing to do with slavery and racism in this country. That doesn't mean I didn't benefit, though.

Where does racism (and sexism and ageism) come from ? My opinion - it comes from a shortage of opportunities and the desire of the dominant group to keep them corralled.

One concrete example - medical school. There are always far many more applicants to medical school than there are seats. And virtually all applicants are more than qualified. Back in my day - no women need apply. And that was despite the fact that many supposed 'issues' of women doctors - some going back hundreds of years - too emotional, too flighty, too tender, too stupid and illogical, and too valuable as womanly women to turn them into hardened doctors - were debunked many, many years ago. No women need apply.

You could look at any discriminatory 'ism' and find the same cause at work.

That answer is to not only address the biases we are taught, but to create more opportunities so everyone has a vested interest in the system.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

KIRKULES

Saturday, March 22, 2008 9:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tankobite:
Not going to get too into this (not a big fan of politics over the internet) but I did find one part of his speech funny: the part where he claimed he had
Quote:
a white grandmother who worked on a bomber assembly line at Fort Leavenworth while he was overseas.

Take it from a person from the Ft. Leavenworth area that's plain wrong.
That aside-I'm reading the speech now and it just doesn't speak to me, to be honest.

-----------------------------------------------------------

I think they built B-17's in automobile plants in Fairfax Kansas during the war. A friend of mine said his mom worked there during the war. Obama was probably trying to associate his grandmother with the patriotic image of "Rosie the Riveter".

TANKOBITE

Saturday, March 22, 2008 9:36 PM

Aye, I have no problem with that-it's politics. But they didn't do it at Fort Leavenworth. That's the Military DB and the Command and General Staff College, no factories here.

Edit: For a humerous look at the speech, I give you the Onion

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/black_guy_asks_nation_for_change

Quote:
Black Guy Asks Nation For Change

The Onion is so damn funny sometimes.

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

EMBERS

Saturday, March 22, 2008 10:59 PM

Thank you for your comments, which were based on personal experience, which means all the more in the on-going discussion....

I hope that others who haven't seen the speech by Barack Obama will take the 37 minutes and listen:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ypjxp9
It is a great speech, one of the greatest I've heard in my life time.

I'll be supporting Obama because of his intelligence, and calm deliberation. I think he can bring a thoughtful grace to the office of President that we haven't seen in this country in ... well, a heck of a long time!

New Firefly fans should check this out: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=15816

FLETCH2

Sunday, March 23, 2008 1:52 AM

It was a great speech.

SIGNYM

Sunday, March 23, 2008 2:14 AM

Quote:
...the reason this speech will hurt Obama's chances of getting elected is not because of the content of his speech, or the content of Wright's sermons for that matter. The problem is the idea that we need to have more discussions about race in this country. We've been talking about race in this country non-stop for my entire life and I'm sick of it

And so is Obama. The point that I got out of his speech is to get PAST it.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, March 23, 2008 4:16 AM

Racism, though it is a problem that needs to be remedied, not only in America but the entire world, is very low on my list of priorities for things that need to be taken care of first in this country.

When the housing crisis is over, hyper-inflation is over, when the Government actually recognizes and admits that the Federal Reserve has put us in a recession which 50/50 will become a depression, when the Iraq "war" is finally over, when Haliburton has to pay taxes, and when the Constitution in general stops getting pissed on by the people who claim to protect it.... then MAYBE... you can come to me that next presidential race on the subject of racism/sexism.

Although I doubt it because I can probably think of about 10 other topics which should mean more to Americans today if I gave it even 5 more minutes thought.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, March 24, 2008 1:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
...housing crisis... the Iraq "war" is finally over... when Haliburton has to pay taxes... when the Constitution in general stops getting pissed on by the people who claim to protect it...

So, I'm confused... You're not voting for Obama why?
Cuz dude, McCain has said he can picture 100 years in Iraq, he's all about military. And if you think he's gonna stop giving breaks to Haliburton and companies like it, you really need to pull your head out. Everything you've talked about there came from Bush and those like him. It's madness to vote for the same kind of guy and expect a different result.
Obama has said nothing, as far as I can tell, that you would disagree with. End the war, end tax breaks for big corporations who are sending jobs overseas, stimulate the economy, not with a few checks for a few hundred dollars, but with better education and better business models and new companies doing new things, help those in the housing crisis rather than just helping out the banks. Also the fact that he was a civil rights lawyer, has studied and taught the Constitution, and has endless respect for it, thinks the warrantless wiretaps, etc. are a disgrace... Have you been listening at all? Seriously?
Just curious.

You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Monday, March 24, 2008 2:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tankobite:
Not going to get too into this (not a big fan of politics over the internet) but I did find one part of his speech funny: the part where he claimed he had
Quote:
a white grandmother who worked on a bomber assembly line at Fort Leavenworth while he was overseas.

Take it from a person from Ft. Leavenworth area that's plain wrong.
That aside-I'm reading the speech now and it just doesn't speak to me, to be honest.

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

There were bomb assembly plants in Kansas City, which is not too far from Ft Levanworth. It is entirely possible that she lived in Ft Leavenworth and drove to the plant.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

REGINAROADIE

Monday, March 24, 2008 3:18 AM

I'm glad to have read this and your recollection of your daughter having such a profound experience involving politics that was actually uplifting and not disillusioning. I remember Obama's speech and it did feel like I was seeing why people are so caught up with Obama and why he would be the best choice in running the U.S. At times, it feels like the whole Democratic race is seeing two people fighting over which one gets to be the Saviour. And all the arguments that Clinton is hurling at Obama seem merit less, and yet people actually take them seriously. Like the whole "I have more experience than he does". I actually read an article that the best Presidents have been ones that have had little experience in terms of politics. The Founding Fathers, Lincoln, JFK. I think getting new blood into the White House that hasn't been tainted by the HIV of Capitol Hill and lobbyists would be a lot better than a spawn of big business and presidential legacy. Look what happened with the last guy that did that.

As for the pastor that started the controversy, I guess my reaction to it shows how in the dark I am over stuff like this. When I first saw the video of him, I thought it was a sketch. I thought it was some sort of act, and maybe it is to one degree or another. But I'm surprised to hear that pastors and religious guys like him exist on the other side. Usually the fire and brimstone preachers are on the Republican side.

And yes, immediately after Obama's speech, CNN and Sean Hannity were attacking it and saying that it was a hollow victory. But THE DAILY SHOW commented on that and raised the point that all the big, important and inspirational speeches over the centuries are only revered in context. When they were given, they probably didn't have much impact and were attacked by the conservative pundits of that time.

So yes, I agree with Obama, I think he will get the Democratic nom, and I do honestly think that he has a good chance to be the next U.S. President.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

TANKOBITE

Monday, March 24, 2008 4:06 AM

No, it isn't.

Considering that gasoline was being rationed and the commute to work thing is a modern phenomena. Not to mention its doubtful someone who could afford a car (especially since Obama used the words "survived the depression" so I doubt they were rich) in the wake of the Great Depression (or that a woman would be able to drive it, remember it was a different time back then). Add to the fact that she wouldn't be able to live in Fort Leavenworth, which destroys that part of the commute theory. And for the clincher, his exact words were

Quote:
bomber assembly line at Fort Leavenworth

, so I think that puts that theory to rest.

Like I said, I'm not criticizing him for it; I just thought it was funny.

Also, as to the point about all great and important speeches not being revered in their time...sounds like you guys revere this one already.

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

CEBO

Monday, March 24, 2008 5:25 AM

I personnally do not favor one cannadate over another. The reason why i do not is because

Billary is running on sexisum

obama's running on raceisum

and Mcain is running on I am the only republican... vote for me!!!

So i'm going to vote for mcain and hope he dies in office. Then maybe we can get a president who will get something done!!!

heven forbid that from happening

HKCAVALIER

Monday, March 24, 2008 6:04 AM

Tankobite,

What's your point? Who lies about a thing like that?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

TANKOBITE

Monday, March 24, 2008 1:28 PM

Oddly enough, you're the first person to hint that he's "lying" about it.

My point only is: as a person who lives in the Fort Leavenworth area, I heard my town mentioned, and then used in a way that wasn't possible. I chalked it up as a mistake (though why he'd know Fort Leavenworth's name is a bit odd) or that he simply wanted pad his family history by using a military sounding name to cater to that vote. Don't take it any further then that; I don't like discussing my politics with people on the internet, so I don't.

Though you do ask a valid question, if he his lying about a thing like this, what does that say about him and they way he's been portraying himself as a candidate of change?

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Monday, March 24, 2008 1:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tankobite:
No, it isn't.

Considering that gasoline was being rationed and the commute to work thing is a modern phenomena. Not to mention its doubtful someone who could afford a car (especially since Obama used the words "survived the depression" so I doubt they were rich) in the wake of the Great Depression (or that a woman would be able to drive it, remember it was a different time back then). Add to the fact that she wouldn't be able to live in Fort Leavenworth, which destroys that part of the commute theory. And for the clincher, his exact words were
Quote:
bomber assembly line at Fort Leavenworth
, so I think that puts that theory to rest.

Like I said, I'm not criticizing him for it; I just thought it was funny.

Also, as to the point about all great and important speeches not being revered in their time...sounds like you guys revere this one already.

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

No commuting, car pooling or buses during the war? http://www.nps.gov/pwro/collection/website/jean.htm

Please do some research before you state "facts".
ETA: and you can, in fact, live in Leavenworth Kansas.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

ROCKETJOCK

Monday, March 24, 2008 2:25 PM

It sounds to me as though Obama was recalling something his Grandmother might have mentioned in passing over the dinner table, or at a family reunion, and got a detail wrong. Or, as suggested, she might have lived one place and worked at another. (Defense plant workers did, I believe, get the preferred ration sticker for gasoline. (There was, according to Wikipedia, no actual shortage of gasoline, but rationing gas was a good way to cut down on the use of automobile tires--which were in short supply.))

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

TANKOBITE

Monday, March 24, 2008 4:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:

No commuting, car pooling or buses during the war? http://www.nps.gov/pwro/collection/website/jean.htm

Please do some research before you state "facts".
ETA: and you can, in fact, live in Leavenworth Kansas.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

I never said it didn't happen, I meant that it didn't happen as often as it did today; you didn't take what I said cars to mean that there were no cars in WWII, did you?

Also http://www.fff.org/freedom/0395d.asp,

Quote:
military preemption of public transportation interfered with intercity travel by civilians, and rationing of tires and gasoline made commuting to work very difficult for many workers.

is what I was using. I still think its unlikely because of how small Leavenworth's population is today and how far away KC is even with modern vehicle speeds (~45 minutes ) it just doesn't seem likely that the government would bother paying for a few people from Leavenworth to come down to KC to work, when there would still be plenty of people living in KC who were unemployed at the time. But this is still irrelevant because you're just saying that it is possible that she lived there, and there's still no proof of it.

Amazingly, I do know that you "CAN" in fact live in Leavenworth, Kansas because I do. However living in Leavenworth and commuting to work in Kansas City is till a far cry from (and I'm quoting directly from the speech here) "a bomb assembly line at Fort Leavenworth", and until you prove that she lived there, it doesn't make sense. It is also possible to live in Fort Leavenworth, but you have to be stationed there and since his grandfather was overseas fighting with Patton's Third Army and that still doesn't explain how she worked on the nonexistent bomber factories in Fort Leavenworth.

I suppose though the next big flaw in the statement is probably that his grandparents are from El Dorado and Wichita area (and that's where I've read that the grandmother worked-at the Boeing plant, which is there) but Wichita is several hours away (on the order of four or five) from Leavenworth by modern car travel. Besides, you're shifting the burden of proof; you need to prove that there was a bomber assembly line at Fort Leavenworth at this time, which there wasn't. I've contacted the Fort Leavenworth Historical society on this one.

Finally, I'll remind you that the exact word were "bomber assembly line at Fort Leavenworth". Not Kansas City, not Wichita, but Fort Leavenworth. Arguing about a commute is irrelevant because the commute would have to be to Fort Leavenworth, not from it. Take my post for what it was; a guy who hears about the town his family settled in, in the news, but in a way that doesn't make any sense. I just thought it was funny and I still do. If I were you, I'd shrug it off as a slip of the tongue (like I did...)

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

KIRKULES

Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:48 AM

Looks like Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius got the story right in her speech in January.

"They married in the early days of World War II. Stanley enlisted in the Army shortly after Pearl Harbor was bombed, and he served under Gen. George S. Patton. Obama's mother was born on the Army base Ft. Leavenworth, and Madelyn worked on a bomber assembly line."

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-obama30jan30,1
,4880993.story

Sounds like Obama's mom was born at the military base in Leavenworth and his grandmother Madelyn worked at a bomber plant somewhere else in Kansas.

TANKOBITE

Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:56 AM

Yeah, I saw that article and I wrote to the author about it. Still awaiting a response.

http://genealogy.about.com/od/aframertrees/p/barack_obama.htm says

Quote:
Stanley Ann DUNHAM was born on 27 November 1942 in Wichita, Kansas and died 7 November 1995 of ovarian cancer.

which makes sense if the grandmother was working in Wichita on the Boeing line like I've read. Fort Leavenworth just doesn't make sense.

-----------------------------------------------------------
There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Thursday, March 27, 2008 2:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
...housing crisis... the Iraq "war" is finally over... when Haliburton has to pay taxes... when the Constitution in general stops getting pissed on by the people who claim to protect it...

So, I'm confused... You're not voting for Obama why?
Cuz dude, McCain has said he can picture 100 years in Iraq, he's all about military. And if you think he's gonna stop giving breaks to Haliburton and companies like it, you really need to pull your head out. Everything you've talked about there came from Bush and those like him. It's madness to vote for the same kind of guy and expect a different result.
Obama has said nothing, as far as I can tell, that you would disagree with. End the war, end tax breaks for big corporations who are sending jobs overseas, stimulate the economy, not with a few checks for a few hundred dollars, but with better education and better business models and new companies doing new things, help those in the housing crisis rather than just helping out the banks. Also the fact that he was a civil rights lawyer, has studied and taught the Constitution, and has endless respect for it, thinks the warrantless wiretaps, etc. are a disgrace... Have you been listening at all? Seriously?
Just curious.

DISCLAIMER: You know how I get in here PR, so don't let my reply suprise you....

So you've bought into his bullshit line too. He's a snake with a silver tounge, and the fact that so many people are so happy about him makes me trust him even less. He's a politician, and more importantly, he's a politician from Mayor Daley's machine in Illinois.

If he cared one minute for civil rights and had "endless respect" for the Constitution, he would be just as adamant against the Real ID act as Ron Paul is. As it is, the only reason he doesn't support the Real ID as it is written is because of the high costs being passed onto the states. (Of course a Democratic presidential nominee would be thinking about paying this at a Federal level and we'd all be paying for it anyways with the higher taxes we'll be enevitably paying. At least those of us who are working anyways).

Now, dont' get me wrong, I agree there needs to be a ton of change. I'm sure as hell not voting for McCain because I think the only man running from the start who was more blatenly evil on face value was "Mr 9/11". I had a little party when he dropped out of the race.

Sadly, as it stands now, Hilary has my vote. As sick as it sounds, she is the lesser of three evils. I would rather have socialized healthcare than Obama's mandated laws on healthcare for children. I've already had a thread about how his healhcare plan scares the shit out of me. To cure the helthcare problem, you're going to need a lot more than band-aids in the form of laws which could one day see the Goverment take your kids away from you. You need to go to the source. Ron Paul was the only candidate who would have taken the correct action on this.

And anyways, I prefer this column on racism by Jason Whitlock (a black man), than Obama's 37 minute speech of things that I've heard before, but not from a man the media is setting up to be the next Jesus.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7955740/Am-I-supposed-to-be-mad-abo
ut-LeBron?MSNHPHCP>1=39002

And his middle name is Hussain, and all the racist black preachers from the past are not going to convince me that if he isn't a Muslim that he doesn't at least have strong Muslim sympathies and loyalties given his background.

This isn't a racist thing. All three candidates are shit. Put Al Sharpton up there against them in November and I'll sure as hell vote for him before any one of those three.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

CANTTAKESKY

Thursday, March 27, 2008 3:52 AM

Rocket,

That was a pretty moving and persuasive essay you wrote at the top of this thread. I checked out Obama's speech, and you're right. That was one hell of a tearjerker. Makes you feel hope and resolve and everything good that a leader is supposed to inspire.

I like Obama. He's a nice guy, and no matter how much I disagree with him, I respect his passion and his leadership.

But I don't think his vision is what is best for this country. None of the top 3 candidates are. He may be the best out of the lot, but I don't think voting is about settling. I think voting is about fighting for what you believe in.

And Obama simply doesn't stand for what I believe in. We agree about bring our troops home. But that's about it. For me, a more perfect union is far, far away from where he wants to take it.

--------------------------
It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.
--Justice Robert H. Jackson

CANTTAKESKY

Thursday, March 27, 2008 3:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
And his middle name is Hussain, and all the racist black preachers from the past are not going to convince me that if he isn't a Muslim that he doesn't at least have strong Muslim sympathies and loyalties given his background.

And so what if he is Muslim or has Muslim loyalties? Are you saying the American people should discriminate on a candidate based on his/her personal religious beliefs?

You may not be a racist, but what you said sounded like religious bigotry. Maybe bigotry against Muslims is not what you meant to advocate, but that is what it sounded like to me. If I am wrong, and I hope I am, please clarify what you mean. Thanks.

--------------------------
Of those around at the moment, Islam is the only one that has any appeal to me. But, of course, Islam has been tainted by other influences. The Muslims are behaving like Christians, I'm afraid.
--Arthur C. Clarke

PHOENIXROSE

Thursday, March 27, 2008 4:07 AM

Well it's obvious that if I argue the points you won't listen, so I'll just leave it at this: Sorry man, but you lost all your cred with me when I found out you'd voted for Bush. Twice.

For those who are interested (I doubt there's many of you) Obama's been my pick since before this speech, since before any of his speeches, since before he went on the campaign trail, since the moment there were rumblings that this man might run and my dad loaned me Dreams From My Father. Whatever anyone might say about buying the lines or drinking the kool aid, I could not care less, because I wanted him to run for his intelligence and his attitudes. I wanted to be able to vote for someone who didn't make me feel ashamed of where this country's gone, someone who didn't just prove to the rest of the world that we were a mass of mindless, greedy, selfish, homogenic morons. Someone who would, from where I'm standing, work for things I think need to be worked for. Someone who could, in a word, lead.
I've seen nothing to make me change my opinion. That's all I have to say.

You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.

ROCKETJOCK

Thursday, March 27, 2008 4:08 AM

In reply to Cantakesky:

As I said, I'm not trying to convert anybody politically. (At least, not on this thread.) And I've been on RWED enough to know that, if Obama's own words don't convince someone that he's fit to vote for, then anything I say will fall far short. I'm actually pleasantly surprised that this thread has lasted as long as it has without attracting any large number of that peculiar strain of RWED troll -- stocked on both ends of the political spectrum -- that we all know and, uh, know.

But I'd beg you, if you don't find any of the three front-runners acceptable, then find a third-party candidate to vote for, or write in the name of some personal hero.

Don't forget, if you don't vote, you lose your right-to-bitch license for the next four years.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

CANTTAKESKY

Thursday, March 27, 2008 4:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
So, I'm confused... You're not voting for Obama why?

I know you didn't ask me, but I'll throw out my answer anyway.

His solutions are short-term, band-aid answers. It's like making your trip down a cliff more comfortable, but doesn't stop you from falling off or hitting bottom. His vision is to help Americans feel good, esp good enough to vote for him again. But it won't help, or at least allow, Americans to grow up.

1. Health care. The solution to health care has to tackle the root problem of overinflated costs. If those prices come down, you don't have to be insured to afford them. If someone says, "I won't sell you this life-saving service unless you pay me $1 million dollars," the solution is not to rob a football stadium and force everyone to chip in for the $1M. It is to allow competition to pressure the seller to offer the service for a reasonable and affordable price. Politicians won't break the current monopoly because they can't afford to lose the financial and political support of the pharmaceutical and medical industries. For some reason, corporations and outlandish profit-making in the medical industry are above the suspicion and condemnation of even very liberal politicians. The president I want has to EMPOWER Americans to have *more* health care options, not limit them to choices bought by industry.

2. Israel. Again, politicians can't afford to alienate the Jewish and evangelical Christian demographic. But the only foreign policy that makes sense is to tackle the root problem of meddling in other countries. An alliance has to give as well as take. The state of Israel has not given the American people a single thing except a reputation for supporting state-sponsored terrorism. It is time to let Israel grow up and leave the nest. If they want to torture people, they need to do it on their own dime. It is time for us to distance ourselves from a state that has documented human rights atrocities by every major HR organization as well as the UN. Supporting bullies makes enemies we don't need right now. The president I want has to EMPOWER Americans to break from this co-dependent relationship.

3. Foreign interference. First of all, we can no longer afford to send financial aid to other countries while passing that debt to our children and allowing our own citizens to go without. So we should just stop interfering, period. Secondly, most of the time, this aid goes to support bullies for the benefit of big business, which is a very bad foreign policy. Thirdly, if there is such dire evil that military intervention is necessary (as in Rwanda, Burma, Sudan), the intervention has to 1) authorized by Congress and the American people, 2) be comprised of volunteers from the military rather than ordered of the military, 3) engage only if a reasonable regime is available and able to occupy the power vacuum, and 4) have an intelligent exit strategy when everything goes wrong. The president I want has to EMPOWER Americans to refuse to be the pawn of big business, to take care of our own before meddling with others, and to engage in places that genuinely need our military intervention (where we do not engage because there is no profit).

4. Taxation. Americans need to be EMPOWERED to spend their own money however they need to spend it, not have 30-40% taken from them to spend however some legislator for sale might want to.

I can go on and on, but you get the idea.

--------------------------
The power of collecting and disbursing money at pleasure is the most dangerous power that can be entrusted to man.
--attributed to Horatio Bunce in Sockdolager

6IXSTRINGJACK

Thursday, March 27, 2008 7:26 AM

Quote:
And so what if he is Muslim or has Muslim loyalties? Are you saying the American people should discriminate on a candidate based on his/her personal religious beliefs?

You may not be a racist, but what you said sounded like religious bigotry. Maybe bigotry against Muslims is not what you meant to advocate, but that is what it sounded like to me. If I am wrong, and I hope I am, please clarify what you mean. Thanks.

Now is certainly not the time to play the race/religious card regarding this situation. To bar a Muslim from the higest political office in this country, for the time being, is simply a matter of common sense and more importantly National Security. I certainly don't want a Muslim running our country now, and I'm not ashamed in the least bit to say it.

This ain't your grandma's planet anymore. It's very very tiny and we're all on top of each other now. I already think our Government spends WAY too much time involved in foreign affairs, and I don't want a president who may have loyalties to Middle Eastern countries that will direct his judgement while in office.

Personally, not that I'm blaming Obama for doing it, I don't have any respect for anyone who uses their religion to get into office. Aside from Ron Paul, the entire Republican race has been a bunch of bullshit between running off of fearmongering and off of their religious platforms.

What I am accusing Obama, and more likely his campaign managers, of now is making this a whole Christian related scandal with his old preist and throwing off people from the trail that he was raised a Muslim.

Not running off his real religion, because it could potentially kill his political career early given the circumstances in the world, Obama is running just the same off his blackness the way that Hillary is running off her being a woman. It's a gimick. I'm calling it next election that there will be 2 female candidates, 3 black candidates and one mexican candidate. Then maybe we can get past this mystique of soemthing different finally and vote on the issues these people speak of without looking at their color. But it's new to people. They've never seen it before ever, at least not in front runners for president of the United States.

Obama has played the race card since he started campaiging, and this speech, no matter what the words spoken, are the epitome of his using the color of his skin to try to get into office.

What's her name was right, and I can't figure out why she was claimed a racist for saying so. If Obama was just another white dude, you would have never heard of him. If he was a woman, well... there was only enough room for one woman this year, maybe he would have had a chance in 2012.

That's the cold hard truth. Sorry state of affairs when the closer you are to stating the truth, the more in jeopardy of being labeled politically incorrect.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

FLETCH2

Thursday, March 27, 2008 7:53 AM

Just a thought that needs to be thrown into the mix here. Family's build mythologies just as rich, detailed and often wrong as any other.

Case in point, my mother always claimed that my father proposed to her during a specific movie. She has told and retold that story over the years often with him sitting in the same room. That's a big event right? I mean you would expect someone to remember details about something like that in great detail?

The problem? That movie wasn't released until after they were already engaged so the chances are that he actually did the asking during a different movie. If you ask him about it he'll tell you sheepishly that he doesn't remember what movie it was, it's my mother that insists it's that one and he's prepared to accept her word on it.

So, it's perfectly possible that in the telling and retelling events get moved around in time. The family "myth" of the event, the version told to each other and to others may be flawed compared to the "real" version.

Knowing that it's possible that the version told to Obama and retold by him is the family myth version, the one where places and people get switched around timelines compacted and re-arranged by fickle memory.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Thursday, March 27, 2008 9:50 AM

That's a good point Fletch.

You'd think that his campaign team would do a little research before writing that into his speech beforehand, ya know, with the Wikipedia just begging to prove everyone wrong. Or in your folks case, IMDB.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

CANTTAKESKY

Thursday, March 27, 2008 1:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
To bar a Muslim from the higest political office in this country, for the time being, is simply a matter of common sense and more importantly National Security. I certainly don't want a Muslim running our country now, and I'm not ashamed in the least bit to say it.

This ain't your grandma's planet anymore. It's very very tiny and we're all on top of each other now. I already think our Government spends WAY too much time involved in foreign affairs, and I don't want a president who may have loyalties to Middle Eastern countries that will direct his judgement while in office.

OK, so I didn't misinterpret you. You are a religious bigot, and not ashamed to say it. Well, at least you're honest.

I agree that we spend way too much time involved in foreign affairs. Does that mean you don't want a Jewish president who may have loyalties to Israel that will direct his judgment while in office? How about banning a Catholic president who may have loyalties to the Vatican, Ireland, and Latin America? What about banning a Buddhist president who might just have an itch to send troops to Tibet and start a war with China? While we're at it, let's ban Protestant presidents too, because they might be influenced by sympathies to evangelical Christian missionaries who are proselytizing *everywhere*.

Let's just have true separation of church and state and elect only atheist presidents. Wouldn't that be more fair than singling out Muslims?

And since it is not only Islam you are concerned about, but loyalty/sympathy to Middle Eastern countries, there a hint of nationalist bigotry too (prejudice against all those countries as a group).

So you really think the Middle Eastern countries were responsible for 9/11 huh? I thought you were more paranoid than that.

--------------------------
Of those around at the moment, Islam is the only one that has any appeal to me. But, of course, Islam has been tainted by other influences. The Muslims are behaving like Christians, I'm afraid.
--Arthur C. Clarke

ROCKETJOCK

Thursday, March 27, 2008 2:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
That's a good point Fletch.

You'd think that his campaign team would do a little research before writing that into his speech beforehand, ya know, with the Wikipedia just begging to prove everyone wrong. Or in your folks case, IMDB.

Except that Senator Obama wrote the speech in question himself, and reportedly didn't let anyone on his staff review it. Which lends credence to the "Family Legend" theory, I think.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

CHAPTERANDVERSE

Thursday, March 27, 2008 3:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
To bar a Muslim from the higest political office in this country, for the time being, is simply a matter of common sense and more importantly National Security. I certainly don't want a Muslim running our country now, and I'm not ashamed in the least bit to say it.

This ain't your grandma's planet anymore. It's very very tiny and we're all on top of each other now. I already think our Government spends WAY too much time involved in foreign affairs, and I don't want a president who may have loyalties to Middle Eastern countries that will direct his judgement while in office.
OK, so I didn't misinterpret you. You are a religious bigot, and not ashamed to say it. Well, at least you're honest.

I agree that we spend way too much time involved in foreign affairs. Does that mean you don't want a Jewish president who may have loyalties to Israel that will direct his judgment while in office? How about banning a Catholic president who may have loyalties to the Vatican, Ireland, and Latin America? What about banning a Buddhist president who might just have an itch to send troops to Tibet and start a war with China? While we're at it, let's ban Protestant presidents too, because they might be influenced by sympathies to evangelical Christian missionaries who are proselytizing *everywhere*.

Let's just have true separation of church and state and elect only atheist presidents. Wouldn't that be more fair than singling out Muslims?

And since it is not only Islam you are concerned about, but loyalty/sympathy to Middle Eastern countries, there a hint of nationalist bigotry too (prejudice against all those countries as a group).

So you really think the Middle Eastern countries were responsible for 9/11 huh? I thought you were more paranoid than that.

Sometimes, when I feel particularly strongly about an issue, i find that I am too emotional about it to give an articulate and measured response to arguments that I find offensively ill-informed. Thank you Canttakesky for saying what needed to be said in such a concise and straightforward manner. It is good to know that there are people like you out there too.

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 27, 2008 3:32 PM

Quote:
Obama has played the race card since he started campaiging, and this speech, no matter what the words spoken, are the epitome of his using the color of his skin to try to get into office.

It would make absolutely no sense for Obama to 'play the race card".

Why?

Because there are way more bigoted whites that guilty whites and blacks combined. Up until Rev Wright became an issue, Obama was running as a dark-skinned white. He didn't refer to race, only to his goals. If you want to see WHY he didn't refer to race, you have only to look at his poll numbers afterwards.... the Wright issue brought out all the paranioa and bigotry that up until then had been hiding in the closet. In other words, he was trying to avoid exactly your kind of response.

with you 6ix.

CTS- great answer.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, March 27, 2008 4:16 PM

Man's got a right to his opinions though.

Cause something you said about a jewish candidate kinda hit home on me, sad that it is to say, given their historical behavior going all the way back a thousand years and so... no, I could not bring myself to vote for one, and do I feel maybe some guilt for that, sure - but peoples attitudes are influenced by their concept as a whole of a belief or people by those they have met and interacted with.

I live right near a very large community of arabic and muslim folk who hate those fanatic dickheads, since a lot of em moved HERE to get away from em, and I don't have issues with those folk so much cause I know em, can relate, have learned to understand them as people, see ?

They've been pretty open (although less so recently, in our vilifying of their belief and race as of late, society-wide) and engaging with those willing to hold an open mind and learn about them... not so sure about a president, but you know, I sure wouldn't mind a muslim economic adviser, they take as dim a view of usury and general chicanery than I do.

But every time I have tried to relate to jewish folk, it's like meeting a stone wall, they're a very insular people sometimes, sure, it seems to be part of their culture, but thing is folks...

If you don't understand someone, don't really comprehend their motivations, their beliefs and what drives them, that lack of knowledge leads to fear and distrust, especially in light of behavior patterns that, without that knowledge, are only interpretable by speculation.

I'm not entirely sure I would call that outright bigotry, but more of a human guardedness about folks who's motivations, goals and ambitions are unknown to you - we fear the unknown, and what we fear, we certainly don't trust.

My differences with catholics/protestants are different matter entire - the more I know about em, the more that I DIS-like them, to be honest about it, and I have my reasons.

Anyhows, I doubt so much that Jack is buying the vilification, as much as he does not know or understand those folk enough to place any trust in them, which might look like bigotry on the face of it, but bigotry is rooted in hate, and it just didn't seem like it to me, any more than I would consider myself anti-semetic for not trusting folks who's drives, motivations and culture *I* do not know or understand because I've been unable to connect with them enough to do so.

That bein said, if yer ever in this neck of the woods, I got some folks you might wanna meet Jack, remember, they're forbidden to partake of the fermentation of the grape (wine) or of wheat (whiskey), but in thier book milk (kefir) and honey (mead) are A-Ok, you see...

Believe me, a couple rounds of raised glasses with some doner kebab around the table, and you'd soon realize a lot of em are the same kind of assholes we are!

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

RUE

Thursday, March 27, 2008 4:39 PM

My biggest experience with 'Jewish folk' was as a university student with other students. I had the impression 'mom and dad' sent them as far away as possible from NYC to a place where they could still be in the state. And then my biggest gripe was that they were too loud and too stuck on themselves - which had to do with coming from the NYC area more than anything. I was asked once by a well-meaning but completely ignorant NYC mother if western NY had its own water supply or did it come from 'the city'. (Apparently she did not know there actually were other cities on the planet or that that water in NYC didn't come from NYC it came from elsewhere.) As someone once said 'there is no one quite so provincial as a person from New York City'.

The experience didn't give me any impression of Jews, but I never again had an interest in visiting the nest where all the NYC folk came from.

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:07 PM

Yanno Frem, I can''t imagine two politicians LESS like each other than Russ Feingold and Diane Feinstein. One is a staunch supporter of what I call 'true Ameican values' and the other is just a neocon in drag.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:43 PM

Exactly, Sig.. they're people like anyone else, and folk I wouldn't mind understanding a little better, but they don't make it so easy.

The only contact I have that's any kind of open with me is a young guy, almost a kid, really - but for whatever reason, his grandfather, who almost never says nothing at all, saw fit to give me a WWII Polish Radom Auto for Xmas, with a handwritten note saying it had a very dark history and he could think of no more redeeming hand in which to put it.

I was kind of awed by that, for a lot of reasons, but I still don't *know* the guy, he says very little to me, although he did mention a certain level of cultural paranioa, which did put a new light on some things, and yet still I know almost nothing - and it's not my way to pry, you have to invite me into your mentality, offer me a door or a window to look into.
(His mother made a vampire crack when I said that...)

I get the feeling they don't much care for me, but I am not so very sure that is accurate, since they obviously support what I do a great deal, it just bothers me that I have little comprehension of what drives their actions, and as you can imagine, that drives me a bit bonkers, you know.

It's not just important to know people do things, it's important to know WHY, especially when dealing with other cultures cause it's oh so easy to be mortally offensive when you do not mean to be, or get blindsided that way, see ?

As for Obamalamadingdong...
(found out yesterday to my tremendous amusement that I ain't the only one who calls him that!)

We are, nationally, in a pretty bad spot, and to pull us out of this nose dive, sure, hope is important, but also some harsh measures, like cutting foreign aid as an example, that really NEED to be done are political suicide to do.

And we need someone hardheaded enough, just plain jackass stubborn enough, to commit political suicide in the doing of their job, and I don't think the man has it in him cause he ain't arrogant enough, stubborn enough, or flat out mean enough to do the ugly, nasty job were about to set in front of him.

But I don't think Billary or McCain got what it takes neither..

McCain might try to put the brakes on, though I doubt it, his party is so invested in the direction we have taken, and so horribly afraid of being able to admit they were wrong, especially when it might lead to some of them doing time, that they'll go full steam ahead right off the cliff and carry us with em.

I like Obama, I just think that the shitstorm of a job we're about to hand him will crush and bury him cause he ain't got the nasty it'd take to stand and deliver in a place that ugly.

I'd love to be wrong about that, but I don't think so.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

FLETCH2

Thursday, March 27, 2008 6:47 PM

People are people, you judge them by what they do not by the labels they have. Jewish president? Jon Stewart gets my vote (if i had a vote...)

6IXSTRINGJACK

Thursday, March 27, 2008 10:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
That's a good point Fletch.

You'd think that his campaign team would do a little research before writing that into his speech beforehand, ya know, with the Wikipedia just begging to prove everyone wrong. Or in your folks case, IMDB.

Except that Senator Obama wrote the speech in question himself, and reportedly didn't let anyone on his staff review it. Which lends credence to the "Family Legend" theory, I think.

Well.... can't argue that my man. If you believe what a sneaky lying politician and what his campaign team want you to. Call me cynical, but the man is just as full of shit as any other politician who has ever run for office.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

RUE

Thursday, March 27, 2008 11:09 PM

So, uhm, if he lies like everyone else, and is a politician like everyone else, and has plans you don't like everyone else - what's your sepcific beef against him then ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

SIGNYM

Friday, March 28, 2008 1:23 AM

Because he's black (well, part black) and a Muslim (well, he's not that either) and he's running on race (not really).

I guess I don't know!

Maybe 6ix can 'slpain.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, March 28, 2008 5:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Because he's black (well, part black) and a Muslim (well, he's not that either) and he's running on race (not really).

I guess I don't know!

Maybe 6ix can 'slpain.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

Well Signy, I think I summed it up pretty well about a month ago in my thread about his proposed healthcare plan. Personally I think it's one of the most horrifying pieces of suggested legislation that I've ever seen and it will inevitably lead to the path that only the rich can have kids and the state will eventually start taking the kids that parents can't afford to insure. Huxley predicted this back in 1932, and I see Obama's proposed legislation on healthcare to be the catalyst necessary for our great grandchildren to find themselves in a world where more children are being raised directly by the state rather than their own flesh and blood families.

And thank you Frem for understanding again where I'm coming from. Things seem to make sense so much to me when I'm writing them, and I don't know if it's my failure or thiers, but people seem to twist my words into something I didn't mean in here very often. It must be so easy for some people to stand up on that pedastal and sit in judgement of other's thoughts and have words like bigotry and racism up their sleeves to immediately render their opposing view helpless. Being a white guy, I've been made to feel like shit about who I am because of what history tells us and I'm sick of that shit. I'm calling bullshit here, and you people are calling me a racist for it.

I'm sure that on an individual basis as one person to another I'd probably get along just fine with the people you speak of Frem. I've been quoted as saying in these threads before that the black guys I worked with were some of the easiest to get along with out of all the people I've ever worked with. Funny thing is, I also happen to have a bunch more in common with a lot of them, what with my general distrust of politicians, lawyers, cops, CEOs, etc., than I do with my white coworkers. I've also said that 75% of the people at least that I've ever met are assholes and about 90% of them were white.

Bottom line is, and I'm putting it in bolded caps this time so you make no mistake about my point here. YOU WOULD NOT EVEN KNOW WHO OBAMA WAS IF HE WAS NOT BLACK. That's the undeniable truth.

There is nothing else at all that is extraordinary about him. He's a one term Senator with no history of getting anything done. There is no way that anyone can argue to the contrary, except to throw out words like racism or biggotry. The fact is, he's a smooth talking, charismatic person, he's not bad looking, he's young, but most importantly he's different.... and he's faced with a nation of people who are just so fed up with the status quo they're just begging and pleading for something entirely different.

Let me ask you all this.... Do you think we'd have our first female and first black frontrunners as president if the economy was doing great, there was no war, we weren't all being spied on, and the Constitution wasn't being used as toilet paper for the big boys everyday? I don't think so. That's not to say that when having female and black Presidents become the norm that it wouldn't happen then, but not the first time. What better time to introduce them both as something so different that they just have to do a better job based on the sheer virtue that they're so different than the stereotypical rich old white assholes that have been making life hell for most of us?

Simple political strategy, that is.

And yes, I don't want a Muslim in office now either. That's my goddamned right to feel that way now and it's not bigotry. Especially since we've done such a fine job pissing them off for the greater part of a century. The biggest problem I have with the whole thing is why is he trying to hide his heritage so much? If America is truly of the mind that having a Muslim president is no

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, March 28, 2008 11:22 AM

Well, as I noted before, Jack - sometimes it's kinda hard to get the end results of our crooked thought processes across to those who don't posses them.

That is why I consider it so all-fired important to really understand other people, those who think, believe, and act differently, cause of reasons exactly like that, and the dangers of misinterpretation.

I got where you were coming from, but yanno... now that you mention it...

Whether we despise Billary and Obamalamadingdong, there IS a certain merit in finally breaking the stranglehold of white male protestants in the presidency, although obviously neither of us likes em, the fact that they are even in the running is, I think, a sign of the sheeple not being as complete mental drones as we have previously assumed.

When yer drownin, as you start chokin on the water, you start caring less and less about WHO is throwin a rope, and more about the WHEN, ain't that a fact ?

I think Obama's issue with heritage is a bit personal-internal, he's got issues with family history that are none of my business and thus I will not explore, but it's apparent to me that he has chosen to identify with some of his heritage and reject some of the rest, which is fine by me, we all do that, but like you, I wish he would be a little more upright and forthcoming about it.

As for the Governator, heh heh heh - you know, if they ever do bend the law or change it in such a fashion to allow him to run for prez, I have JUST the candidate to kick his ass, and she'll do it too.

Jennifer Granholm, former State Attorney General and current Governor of Michigan.

See, the same rules and laws that keep the Governator out of the race, also disqualify her, and should that change, I would back her up even though she is not nearly as good a politician as she was an Attorney General.

And one debate would be all she wrote for the Governator - man, what she did to DeVos in the one he agreed to, wow, let's just say she handed him his ass in a fashion best described in terms bordering on the vaguely pornographic...

A VERY smart and articulate woman she is, and Arnie would be no match for her, in spite of my opinion that he has not done THAT bad a job as CA Governor, and seems to have grown as a person in response to the needs of the job.

Can't say I like him, mind you, but compared to when he took the job, I do think he's a better man, and more capable as an administrator, then he was initially.

THAT, I can respect, even if I don't like him or his ideals very much.

Hell if I would vote for him, however.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, March 30, 2008 4:05 AM

Yeah Frem... I think I tend to get that quite a bit more than you do, so you must be doing a heck of a better job understanding people.

If under different circumstances I would be quite pleased with breaking the stranglehold of white male protestants, and I would share your enthusiasm that maybe people are starting to wake up. But Obama is exactly what the media is pushing on the proles, and the timing for both a potential first black and potential first woman president could never have had so much force behind it had George W Bush not destroyed faith in America, the office of the President, Whites, Males and Christians with his 8 years of selling the world. This is all very cleverly orchestrated, and we're going to find ourselves in all sorts of scary and uncomfortable positions in the next 4 years when Obama is president (Healthcare being the scariest for me). On the off chance one of the others gets in, I can't with any honesty say it will be all that much better, but Obama is not this savior everyone is looking for.

Ron Paul was the man who could have made a difference... and the people showed him what they really thought of freedom and the Constitution in the last few months.

America doesn't deserve Ron Paul for president. America deserves one of these three conniving goons that will sell them to the Chinese.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, March 30, 2008 9:38 AM

Note that this is the Phillidelphia Inquirer, and not the National Enquirer...

I really don't care much for Hillary, but I can't help that she has been victimized by the same type of lose lose situation that a white person comes up against against all minorities today, particulary black people. Once that word racism comes out and starts spreading around, how are you supposed to fight it? You're white, so obviously you're guilty of being a racist if any utterance of common sense can be mangled in any way to twist the meaning of your words so that they come off as racist (meaning with hateful intent).

The truth is not racist. Racism is generated by hate and executed when that hate motivates somebody to damage their fellow man.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/currents/20080330_Obama_was_the_first_t
o_play_the_race_card.html

Obama was the first to play the race card

Sean Wilentz
is the Sidney and Ruth Lapidus professor of history at Princeton University

Quietly, the storm over the hateful views expressed by Sen. Barack Obama's pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, has blown away the most insidious myth of the Democratic primary campaign. Obama and his surrogates have charged that Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton has deliberately and cleverly played the race card in order to label Obama the "black" candidate.

Having injected racial posturing into the contest, Obama's "post-racial" campaign finally seems to be all about race and sensational charges about white racism. But the mean-spirited strategy started even before the primaries began, when Obama's operatives began playing the race card - and blamed Hillary Clinton.

Had she truly conspired to inflame racial animosities in January and February, her campaign would have brought up the Rev. Jeremiah Wright and his incendiary sermons. But the Clinton campaign did not. And when the Wright stories and videos finally did break through in the mass media, they came not from Clinton's supporters but from Fox News Network.

Although Wright had until recently been obscure to the American public, political insiders and reporters have long known about him. On March 6, 2007, the New York Times reported that Obama had disinvited Wright from speaking at his announcement because, as Wright said Obama told him, "You can get kind of rough in the sermons." By then, conservative commentators had widely denounced Wright. His performances in the pulpit were easily accessible on DVD, direct from his church. But Clinton, despite her travails, elected to remain silent.

Instead, she had to fight back against a deliberately contrived strategy to make her and her husband look like race-baiters. Obama's supporters and operatives, including his chief campaign strategist David Axelrod, seized on accurate and historically noncontroversial statements and supplied a supposedly covert racist subtext that they then claimed the calculating Clinton campaign had inserted.

In December, Bill Shaheen, a Clinton campaign co-chair in New Hampshire, wondered aloud whether Obama's admitted youthful abuse of cocaine might hurt him in the general election. Obama's strategists insisted that Shaheen's mere mention of cocaine was suggestive and inappropriate - even though the scourge of cocaine abuse has long cut across both racial and class lines. Pro-Obama press commentators, including New York Times columnist Frank Rich, then whipped the story into a full racial subtext, charging that the Clintons had, in Rich's words, "ghettoized" Obama "into a cocaine user."

The Obama campaign and its supporters pressed this strategy after Clinton's unexpected win in New Hampshire. Pundits partial to Obama, including Eugene Robinson of the Washington Post and John Nichols of the Nation, instantly mused that their candidate lost because of supposedly bigoted New Hampshire whites who had lied to pre-primary pollsters - an easily disproven falsehood that nevertheless gained currency in the media.

Next morning, Obama's national co-chair, Jesse Jackson Jr., cast false and vic

RUE

Sunday, March 30, 2008 10:26 AM

6-ix

I'm sure some of my relatives in Poland - whom I've never met and probably never will - were some version of fascist. Others were probably card-carrying communist party members. Some were in the underground resistance. Still others were uneducated peasants. I'll bet there were a few drunkards and thieves scattered throughout.

In your opinion, does that make me an uneducated peasant thieving drunk card-carrying communist fascist Hungarian resistance fighter ? (My last name is common in Hungary.)

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, March 30, 2008 10:53 AM

Funny thing about the whole issue, since we're gonna delve into the ridiculous now...

Didja know, I was not even aware Obama was a little darker than me till I saw a picture, and I would allllmost bet Jack, with the same "fuck em all" attitude, wasn't intially aware of it neither.

It's not how we think, you see - we mostly couldn't care less, this stuffs only an issue cause other folks are making it one, Obama included, really I would rather he focus on what really bothers me, whether he can do the job or not.

Of course, ironic is you stooping to the same exact kind of race-baiting that's annoyed the piss out of folks who would rather not have the matter as an issue at all, Rue.

Do you not see, what you are doing there, is exactly the kind of crap that serves no effective purpose but to mire and distract a discussion from any useful purpose ?

And why folks are maybe annoyed about Clinton and Obama going rounds on THAT, instead of real issues ?

Too funny that you remember that game as fondly as I do, Jack... I think the closest real politico to Haggar would probably be Jesse Ventura, and he's too smart to *want* to be president, meh.

I figure imma write in Ron Paul no matter what, cause I want it in the historical record that this guy made an actual showing, and not all americans of this era were complete fucking morons, generations later when folks finally sort out the mess we have made, if any survive it.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

RUE

Sunday, March 30, 2008 11:05 AM

"Of course, ironic is you stooping to the same exact kind of race-baiting that's annoyed the piss out of folks who would rather not have the matter as an issue at all, Rue."

Really ? Was I race baiting ? I was just responding to 6-ix saying he'd rather not have a Muslim in the W/H. Obama of course being Muslim b/c his name is Hussein (and mine is often mistaken as Hungarian so that must make me Hungarian) and his father was Muslim (and I have relatives that were all sorts of things so I must be those, too). Now of all the things to dislike or like about Obama, or the entire process, that has got to be the stoooopidest and most silly. Which is what I was trying to point out in a pretty direct way.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, March 30, 2008 11:06 AM

No Rue, it doesn't. My family is from Sicily and has mob ties as well. From what I hear, they're still active too. I was raised far away from it though and although I'm sure they'd welcome me into their resturants and even give me a beer if I told them we had the same last name, but they wouldn't let me in on family secrets and I likely won't be accused of mob ties by anyone in my life.

One difference here is that your ancestors didn't bring the fascism on the boat with them when they came to America. There aren't Polish churches popping up in America preaching fascism as the way to a better future for whatever diety or nation.

Another difference is the man is running for political office, specifically the President of the United States. While I get pissed off about how celebrities are stalked by the paparazzi and every decision of their lives are dissected by the microscope of the ass-masses, I do believe that when you run for politics, your story is an open book for the proles to read. If you are going to be representing me, on any level of political office, well forgive me if I want to know about your past.

I think he's lying and the campaign is doing a hell of a job covering it up. But trust that if he gets the nomination that the bully on the Right is going to plaster Obama's middle name up everywhere and use a whole lot of Republican fearmonguering to put his point across.

Me... There's more than a shadow of a doubt as to his motivations, and I don't want an dormant member of the Nation of Islam running the show here. I will not vote for McCain under any circumstance, but I'm hoping with all I got in me that Obama doesn't win and they don't leave me with no choice and a total lose-lose situation.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

RUE

Sunday, March 30, 2008 11:20 AM

"There aren't Polish churches popping up in America preaching fascism as the way to a better future for whatever deity or nation."

Well, ahem. They never did preach fascism as far as I can remember, but you would not have found average WASP America in those heavily Polish churches either. The beliefs were mostly Medieval and a lot of attention was focused on Poland, the same way Cuban Americans focus on Cuba. In fact after they gave up Latin most of the services were in Polish, the customs beliefs, and mind-set were Polish. As well as the food, the school, and a lot of other community organizations. So I can't portray my background as particularly pro- American, because it wasn't. Just to point out though, even with that background, all of my US relatives could pass as WASPS. I'm the odd duck.

I think the other thing you seem to miss is that on the one hand you call him Muslim, on the other hand you acknowledge that his church is AfrAm x-tain. Either that x-tian church has a big effect on him and his is not Muslim, or that church has no effect on him and he is Muslim. So it seems odd to criticize him both ways.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, March 30, 2008 11:30 AM

Yes, but there is a lot in the Muslim faith that is very anti-Western and anti-anyreligionthatisn'theirs. I'm not comfortable with a sympathizer or even a member running my country. That isn't biggotry, it's a sence of self preservation. I could be mistaken, but this is my true feelings on the matter, and they aren't motivated by hatered.

I don't outright call him one thing or another. I don't know. And that doubt is enough for me. There are plenty of other reasons that I've outlined that I will not be voting for the man. Is this the only one you have a problem with?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

RUE

Sunday, March 30, 2008 11:33 AM

Pretty much - b/c it seems so unsupported by facts.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:54 PM

Well, I suppose that's fair. I may be mistaken about this aspect and I'm more then willing to consceid that. I figure myself to be someone not affiliated with either of the two parties we're represented by today. I don't think it's going to look very good for Obama though when McCain isn't just sitting back and watching them two fight it out.

Obama's campaign has used race against her underhandedly, and while she was not the one who brought out the dirt on his old pastor, she also has not brought up his middle name and his questionable past once. I think that's already more class that she's shown than I would have ever given her credit for going into this.

That's a few big bombs to drop when it's the demon-rethug battle. If there is any dirt there anywhere I'm sure McCain has it by now. While they're wasting 10s of millions of dollars battling it out, he's free to focus his time and resources on his plan to build his rep an destroy the Democratic victor's rep.

My other concerns may not mean anything at all once the fearmoungering has begun. I might not be viewed as somebody with a head very firmly attached to his shoulders in here, but I am not a racist. I thank you for not calling me one either (though whether you believe me to be a religious biggot yourself is still up in the air).

I was simply stating my thoughts and concerns. I have no predetermined loyalty to either side, and I just know there are going to be a whole lot of people scared into voting at those polls.

But I do know that considering the state of affairs in the world now, if it turns out that he even went to a single Muslim sunday school growing up (or whatever the Muslim equivilant), not only will my vote against him be set in stone, but I can guarantee that we will be in for 4 years of McCain.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

SIGNYM

Sunday, March 30, 2008 1:17 PM

6ix- In a few years your fears of a "Muslim" President will look like those fears of "Saddam's WMD": Part of a mass hysteria whipped up by playing on people's fears, ignorance, and prejudice.

And quite frankly, it doesn't matter what anyone did or didn't do when they run for President. McCain's military record didn't stop his (Republican, neocon) detractors from calling him "coward" nor did they stop the dirty-works guys from claiming he had a half-black love-child or from attacking McCain's wife.

If you want to be independent of thought, you've got to by truly independent ... and that means independent of your fears as well. Because if your thinking is dominated by fear you will not see clearly, and it gives people a "hook" into you mind by which you can be led.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, March 30, 2008 3:17 PM

Signy. I'm thinking about things right now and I started writing things down and it turned into a million things that I didn't know what I was talking about.

Not going to say any of them here now, but I'm not ignoring the thread.

RocketJock.... didn't mean to steal your thunder or anything. I got a superiority complex and it can drive people away. I don't really mean to insult with my blanket statements but I use them to let go of a lot of frustration and tend to offend. This is your thread and I'll bow out of it and let Obama supporters talk amongst themselves.

Good luck to you, and if he wins, good luck to all of us, right?

Later,
6SJ

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

SIGNYM

Sunday, March 30, 2008 3:32 PM

Understood.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.