Obama's speech, and my daughter's tears
POSTED BY: RocketJock
UPDATED: Sunday, March 30, 2008 15:32
VIEWED: 11731
PAGE 4 of 7
Quote:And so what if he is Muslim or has Muslim loyalties? Are you saying the American people should discriminate on a candidate based on his/her personal religious beliefs?
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
And his middle name is Hussain, and all the racist black preachers from the past are not going to convince me that if he isn't a Muslim that he doesn't at least have strong Muslim sympathies and loyalties given his background.
You may not be a racist, but what you said sounded like religious bigotry. Maybe bigotry against Muslims is not what you meant to advocate, but that is what it sounded like to me. If I am wrong, and I hope I am, please clarify what you mean. Thanks.
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Of those around at the moment, Islam is the only one that has any appeal to me. But, of course, Islam has been tainted by other influences. The Muslims are behaving like Christians, I'm afraid.
--Arthur C. Clarke
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Well it's obvious that if I argue the points you won't listen, so I'll just leave it at this: Sorry man, but you lost all your cred with me when I found out you'd voted for Bush. Twice.
For those who are interested (I doubt there's many of you) Obama's been my pick since before this speech, since before any of his speeches, since before he went on the campaign trail, since the moment there were rumblings that this man might run and my dad loaned me Dreams From My Father. Whatever anyone might say about buying the lines or drinking the kool aid, I could not care less, because I wanted him to run for his intelligence and his attitudes. I wanted to be able to vote for someone who didn't make me feel ashamed of where this country's gone, someone who didn't just prove to the rest of the world that we were a mass of mindless, greedy, selfish, homogenic morons. Someone who would, from where I'm standing, work for things I think need to be worked for. Someone who could, in a word, lead.
I've seen nothing to make me change my opinion. That's all I have to say.
You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.
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In reply to Cantakesky:
As I said, I'm not trying to convert anybody politically. (At least, not on this thread.) And I've been on RWED enough to know that, if Obama's own words don't convince someone that he's fit to vote for, then anything I say will fall far short. I'm actually pleasantly surprised that this thread has lasted as long as it has without attracting any large number of that peculiar strain of RWED troll -- stocked on both ends of the political spectrum -- that we all know and, uh, know.
But I'd beg you, if you don't find any of the three front-runners acceptable, then find a third-party candidate to vote for, or write in the name of some personal hero.
Don't forget, if you don't vote, you lose your right-to-bitch license for the next four years.
"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn
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Quote:I know you didn't ask me, but I'll throw out my answer anyway.
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
So, I'm confused... You're not voting for Obama why?
His solutions are short-term, band-aid answers. It's like making your trip down a cliff more comfortable, but doesn't stop you from falling off or hitting bottom. His vision is to help Americans feel good, esp good enough to vote for him again. But it won't help, or at least allow, Americans to grow up.
1. Health care. The solution to health care has to tackle the root problem of overinflated costs. If those prices come down, you don't have to be insured to afford them. If someone says, "I won't sell you this life-saving service unless you pay me $1 million dollars," the solution is not to rob a football stadium and force everyone to chip in for the $1M. It is to allow competition to pressure the seller to offer the service for a reasonable and affordable price. Politicians won't break the current monopoly because they can't afford to lose the financial and political support of the pharmaceutical and medical industries. For some reason, corporations and outlandish profit-making in the medical industry are above the suspicion and condemnation of even very liberal politicians. The president I want has to EMPOWER Americans to have *more* health care options, not limit them to choices bought by industry.
2. Israel. Again, politicians can't afford to alienate the Jewish and evangelical Christian demographic. But the only foreign policy that makes sense is to tackle the root problem of meddling in other countries. An alliance has to give as well as take. The state of Israel has not given the American people a single thing except a reputation for supporting state-sponsored terrorism. It is time to let Israel grow up and leave the nest. If they want to torture people, they need to do it on their own dime. It is time for us to distance ourselves from a state that has documented human rights atrocities by every major HR organization as well as the UN. Supporting bullies makes enemies we don't need right now. The president I want has to EMPOWER Americans to break from this co-dependent relationship.
3. Foreign interference. First of all, we can no longer afford to send financial aid to other countries while passing that debt to our children and allowing our own citizens to go without. So we should just stop interfering, period. Secondly, most of the time, this aid goes to support bullies for the benefit of big business, which is a very bad foreign policy. Thirdly, if there is such dire evil that military intervention is necessary (as in Rwanda, Burma, Sudan), the intervention has to 1) authorized by Congress and the American people, 2) be comprised of volunteers from the military rather than ordered of the military, 3) engage only if a reasonable regime is available and able to occupy the power vacuum, and 4) have an intelligent exit strategy when everything goes wrong. The president I want has to EMPOWER Americans to refuse to be the pawn of big business, to take care of our own before meddling with others, and to engage in places that genuinely need our military intervention (where we do not engage because there is no profit).
4. Taxation. Americans need to be EMPOWERED to spend their own money however they need to spend it, not have 30-40% taken from them to spend however some legislator for sale might want to.
I can go on and on, but you get the idea.
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The power of collecting and disbursing money at pleasure is the most dangerous power that can be entrusted to man.
--attributed to Horatio Bunce in Sockdolager
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Quote:
And so what if he is Muslim or has Muslim loyalties? Are you saying the American people should discriminate on a candidate based on his/her personal religious beliefs?
You may not be a racist, but what you said sounded like religious bigotry. Maybe bigotry against Muslims is not what you meant to advocate, but that is what it sounded like to me. If I am wrong, and I hope I am, please clarify what you mean. Thanks.
Now is certainly not the time to play the race/religious card regarding this situation. To bar a Muslim from the higest political office in this country, for the time being, is simply a matter of common sense and more importantly National Security. I certainly don't want a Muslim running our country now, and I'm not ashamed in the least bit to say it.
This ain't your grandma's planet anymore. It's very very tiny and we're all on top of each other now. I already think our Government spends WAY too much time involved in foreign affairs, and I don't want a president who may have loyalties to Middle Eastern countries that will direct his judgement while in office.
Personally, not that I'm blaming Obama for doing it, I don't have any respect for anyone who uses their religion to get into office. Aside from Ron Paul, the entire Republican race has been a bunch of bullshit between running off of fearmongering and off of their religious platforms.
What I am accusing Obama, and more likely his campaign managers, of now is making this a whole Christian related scandal with his old preist and throwing off people from the trail that he was raised a Muslim.
Not running off his real religion, because it could potentially kill his political career early given the circumstances in the world, Obama is running just the same off his blackness the way that Hillary is running off her being a woman. It's a gimick. I'm calling it next election that there will be 2 female candidates, 3 black candidates and one mexican candidate. Then maybe we can get past this mystique of soemthing different finally and vote on the issues these people speak of without looking at their color. But it's new to people. They've never seen it before ever, at least not in front runners for president of the United States.
Obama has played the race card since he started campaiging, and this speech, no matter what the words spoken, are the epitome of his using the color of his skin to try to get into office.
What's her name was right, and I can't figure out why she was claimed a racist for saying so. If Obama was just another white dude, you would have never heard of him. If he was a woman, well... there was only enough room for one woman this year, maybe he would have had a chance in 2012.
That's the cold hard truth. Sorry state of affairs when the closer you are to stating the truth, the more in jeopardy of being labeled politically incorrect.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Just a thought that needs to be thrown into the mix here. Family's build mythologies just as rich, detailed and often wrong as any other.
Case in point, my mother always claimed that my father proposed to her during a specific movie. She has told and retold that story over the years often with him sitting in the same room. That's a big event right? I mean you would expect someone to remember details about something like that in great detail?
The problem? That movie wasn't released until after they were already engaged so the chances are that he actually did the asking during a different movie. If you ask him about it he'll tell you sheepishly that he doesn't remember what movie it was, it's my mother that insists it's that one and he's prepared to accept her word on it.
So, it's perfectly possible that in the telling and retelling events get moved around in time. The family "myth" of the event, the version told to each other and to others may be flawed compared to the "real" version.
Knowing that it's possible that the version told to Obama and retold by him is the family myth version, the one where places and people get switched around timelines compacted and re-arranged by fickle memory.
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That's a good point Fletch.
You'd think that his campaign team would do a little research before writing that into his speech beforehand, ya know, with the Wikipedia just begging to prove everyone wrong. Or in your folks case, IMDB. 
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:OK, so I didn't misinterpret you. You are a religious bigot, and not ashamed to say it. Well, at least you're honest.
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
To bar a Muslim from the higest political office in this country, for the time being, is simply a matter of common sense and more importantly National Security. I certainly don't want a Muslim running our country now, and I'm not ashamed in the least bit to say it.
This ain't your grandma's planet anymore. It's very very tiny and we're all on top of each other now. I already think our Government spends WAY too much time involved in foreign affairs, and I don't want a president who may have loyalties to Middle Eastern countries that will direct his judgement while in office.
I agree that we spend way too much time involved in foreign affairs. Does that mean you don't want a Jewish president who may have loyalties to Israel that will direct his judgment while in office? How about banning a Catholic president who may have loyalties to the Vatican, Ireland, and Latin America? What about banning a Buddhist president who might just have an itch to send troops to Tibet and start a war with China? While we're at it, let's ban Protestant presidents too, because they might be influenced by sympathies to evangelical Christian missionaries who are proselytizing *everywhere*.
Let's just have true separation of church and state and elect only atheist presidents. Wouldn't that be more fair than singling out Muslims?
And since it is not only Islam you are concerned about, but loyalty/sympathy to Middle Eastern countries, there a hint of nationalist bigotry too (prejudice against all those countries as a group).
So you really think the Middle Eastern countries were responsible for 9/11 huh? I thought you were more paranoid than that.
--------------------------
Of those around at the moment, Islam is the only one that has any appeal to me. But, of course, Islam has been tainted by other influences. The Muslims are behaving like Christians, I'm afraid.
--Arthur C. Clarke
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
That's a good point Fletch.
You'd think that his campaign team would do a little research before writing that into his speech beforehand, ya know, with the Wikipedia just begging to prove everyone wrong. Or in your folks case, IMDB.
Except that Senator Obama wrote the speech in question himself, and reportedly didn't let anyone on his staff review it. Which lends credence to the "Family Legend" theory, I think.
"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:OK, so I didn't misinterpret you. You are a religious bigot, and not ashamed to say it. Well, at least you're honest.
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
To bar a Muslim from the higest political office in this country, for the time being, is simply a matter of common sense and more importantly National Security. I certainly don't want a Muslim running our country now, and I'm not ashamed in the least bit to say it.
This ain't your grandma's planet anymore. It's very very tiny and we're all on top of each other now. I already think our Government spends WAY too much time involved in foreign affairs, and I don't want a president who may have loyalties to Middle Eastern countries that will direct his judgement while in office.
I agree that we spend way too much time involved in foreign affairs. Does that mean you don't want a Jewish president who may have loyalties to Israel that will direct his judgment while in office? How about banning a Catholic president who may have loyalties to the Vatican, Ireland, and Latin America? What about banning a Buddhist president who might just have an itch to send troops to Tibet and start a war with China? While we're at it, let's ban Protestant presidents too, because they might be influenced by sympathies to evangelical Christian missionaries who are proselytizing *everywhere*.
Let's just have true separation of church and state and elect only atheist presidents. Wouldn't that be more fair than singling out Muslims?
And since it is not only Islam you are concerned about, but loyalty/sympathy to Middle Eastern countries, there a hint of nationalist bigotry too (prejudice against all those countries as a group).
So you really think the Middle Eastern countries were responsible for 9/11 huh? I thought you were more paranoid than that.
Sometimes, when I feel particularly strongly about an issue, i find that I am too emotional about it to give an articulate and measured response to arguments that I find offensively ill-informed. Thank you Canttakesky for saying what needed to be said in such a concise and straightforward manner. It is good to know that there are people like you out there too.
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