IMF to Kiev - fight for eastern Ukraine or die

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 2, 2026 17:17
VIEWED: 24929
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SIGNYM

Saturday, May 3, 2014 9:01 AM

MIKER- Umm... so, no facts to back up your post? No refutation showing me where I'm wrong?

Yanno, I don't expect any facts from rappy, and I rarely expect any from Jonggstraw. You OTOH seemed like you might be open to looking at on-the-ground events... like the fact the the USA spend $5 billion on creating a pro-western movement in Ukraine (according to Victoria Nuland, State Department) and that the people that John McCain had a photo-ops with included actual neo-Nazis.

Here

Business Insider More: John McCain Ukraine
John McCain Went To Ukraine And Stood On Stage With A Man Accused Of Being An Anti-Semitic Neo-Nazi
http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukr
aine-2013-12#!HtFT3

So, apparently you don't have the facts and you don't want them. Especially if they challenge your cherished belief system, and point out that the USA just might be fundamentally wrong about something.

That IS pretty disappointing! I thought you were a rational kind of guy.

I have a lot of strong criticisms about China (Tibet and Xinjiang, for example) and some criticisms of Venezuela. Probably fewer about Russia. But I'm not a citizen of any of those countries, so my criticisms are irrelevant.

Oh, and BTW- what the frak does where I'm from have to do with whether what I'm saying is wrong or right? If you MUST know, I was born and lived my entire life in the USA. What of it?

MIKER

Saturday, May 3, 2014 9:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It seems clear to me that the USA, the EU, and NATO are doing everything they can to provoke a war with Russia. This includes providing political cover and cookies and photo-ops with John McCain for Ukraine’s neo-Nazis, personally insulting Putin, breaking negotiated agreements with Russia, endlessly threatening sanctions, and lying in the press (with fake photos, fake flyers, and false reports).

The latest entry into the “provoke a war” campaign is the IMF. The IMF seems intent on pitting Ukraine into a death-match with Russia by threatening their loan status: Fight, or else your loan conditions will be ‘renegotiated’. Since Ukraine’s economy is hanging on ONLY by this thread, the IMF’s statement is an existential threat to the Kiev government.

At this juncture, there’s no point in trying to figure who is behind all this. With the entry of the IMF (and for all I know, the remainder of the troika: the European Commission and the European Central Bank ECB) into the fray, this is clearly a well-coordinated plan, with the USA and the EU and the IMF alternately taking turns to push the project forward, creating no discernable division of interest between them.

Until recently, the Kiev government has been reluctant to mobilize its army because the army itself is probably divided; there have been reports of “security forces” defecting to the east. Instead, the Kiev government has been trying to create citizen militias… pro-Nazi groups and other irregular forces to take the place of the army.

Since the IMF has threatened to renegotiate the loan status, Turchinov, the unelected President of Kiev… oops, I mean Ukraine… has reinstated the draft. I can't imagine what liberal pro-western Ukrainians are thinking now... "Doubled gas prices? Halved pensions? And now the draft???"

----------------------------

Ukraine unrest: Kiev 'helpless' to quell parts of east
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has admitted his forces are "helpless" to quell unrest driven by pro-Russian activists in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. Mr Turchynov said the goal was now to prevent the unrest spreading.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27222023

Ukraine crisis: Russian flags fill May Day rally
Thousands of protesters carrying Russian flags filled the street of Donetsk on Friday, as part of a May Day rally.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27241740

IM F : $17 bn loan would need overhaul if Ukraine loses east
The IMF says its just-announced $17 billion rescue program for Ukraine would have to be overhauled if the country loses control of the economically important eastern region to pro-Russian separatists.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/imf-17-bn-loan-overhaul-164648824.ht
ml

Ukraine crisis: Kiev reinstates conscription
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has reinstated military conscription to deal with deteriorating security in the east of the country. The move, announced in a decree, came as pro-Russia militants seized the regional prosecutor's office in the eastern city of Donetsk.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27247428

Posted by Miker in response:

Here is a quote from the first link you provided as proof of your delusion that the US and EU are instigating things in the Ukraine.

"The acting president of Ukraine said that the tens of thousands of Russian troops stationed just over the border meant that "the threat of Russia starting a war against mainland Ukraine is real". Russia, which annexed the Crimea region from Ukraine last month, has said it has no plans to invade the east". Annexed means invaded and stole in this case. Did the US and EU goad Russia into that. I am sure you can cut and paste far out opinions about that but it would still be bull.

The BBC article says nothing about The US or EU being responsible for this crises, only how they have offered support to Ukrain

MIKER

Saturday, May 3, 2014 9:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
^^^ Great smackdown on Sniggy, but she's like that inflatable Bluto toy you had as a kid ... knock it over with a punch to the face, and it just comes bouncing right back up as determined as ever. She will always be right, and you will always be wrong if you disagree with anything she spews.

Had to follow it up after she turned into a smartass.

MIKER

Saturday, May 3, 2014 9:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
MIKER- Umm... so, no facts to back up your post? No refutation showing me where I'm wrong?

Yanno, I don't expect any facts from rappy, and I rarely expect any from Jonggstraw. You OTOH seemed like you might be open to looking at on-the-ground events... like the fact the the USA spend $5 billion on creating a pro-western movement in Ukraine (according to Victoria Nuland, State Department) and that the people that John McCain had a photo-ops with included actual neo-Nazis.

Here

Business Insider More: John McCain Ukraine
John McCain Went To Ukraine And Stood On Stage With A Man Accused Of Being An Anti-Semitic Neo-Nazi
http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukr
aine-2013-12#!HtFT3

So, apparently you don't have the facts and you don't want them. Especially if they challenge your cherished belief system, and point out that the USA just might be fundamentally wrong about something.

That IS pretty disappointing! I thought you were a rational kind of guy.

I have a lot of strong criticisms about China (Tibet and Xinjiang, for example) and some criticisms of Venezuela. Probably fewer about Russia. But I'm not a citizen of any of those countries, so my criticisms are irrelevant.

Oh, and BTW- what the frak does where I'm from have to do with whether what I'm saying is wrong or right? If you MUST know, I was born and lived my entire life in the USA. What of it?

Come get your medicine darling. It is waiting for you a few posts up.

1KIKI

Saturday, May 3, 2014 10:04 PM

I don't have much time so I'll just start here:

""The acting president of Ukraine said that the tens of thousands of Russian troops stationed just over the border meant that "the threat of Russia starting a war against mainland Ukraine is real". Russia, which annexed the Crimea region from Ukraine last month, has said it has no plans to invade the east". Annexed means invaded and stole in this case."

How did the Ukraine get an acting president? Well, it turns out that the previous democratically elected president - in elections praised by international observers for fairness, access and transparency - was ousted in a coup. And the acting president? Was he elected? No, he was selected - by the people with the guns - the reich wing (literally) - whose troops created 'uprising'. I think there's enough evidence to show that this is so - if you read the earlier posts.

So, you're taking the word of someone who became president as a result of a violent coup, when there are ample facts to show otherwise. How smart are you to do that?

And when exactly did Russian troops start massing. Before the coup? During the coup? Long AFTER the coup? I'm not gong to wait for you to stumble your way to a factual answer - it could take forever. But the answer is long after - after Kiev militia started moving to the border. Gee - ya think it might be prudent for Russia to protect its borders from terrorist groups crossing over?

As for Russia 'annexing' Crimea - perhaps you didn't know that the Kiev government had passed a law making speaking Russian illegal. That paramilitary groups were dragging Russians out of their homes, beating them and setting fire to the buildings ... Crimeans had every right to fear Kiev - and voted overwhelmingly, democratically, and in large numbers - to join Russia. Did Russia annex Crimea? Or did Crimea join Russia?

All this was discussed at lenght in many other threads, btw. You are just revealing your ignorance.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

MIKER

Saturday, May 3, 2014 10:11 PM

He was overthrown by his people. The ones you apparently support are wearing Russian uniforms and have Russia license plates on their vehicles. And oh yea, they all wear masks. The whole world rejects your arguments. Not just me. Also, a large part of those who live in the Ukraine are immigrants from Russia.

Hey moron, the Russian troops move to the border long before the Ukrainians moved there to try and halt their advance.

Every time I think I am done I see something stupid you wrote. Once again you put the cart before the horse. The Ukrainians were acting out of anger because Russia had started the Annexation of Crimea when they offered up the vote to ban the Russian language.

1KIKI

Saturday, May 3, 2014 10:24 PM

"He was overthrown by his people." A small minority with guns. Is that what you support?

"The ones you apparently support ..." Voted. Overwhelmingly. In large numbers. Freely and democratically. Hmmm ... how many other ways can I say that? Compared to what happened in Kiev, which happened at the point of a gun, what happened in Crimea truly was the will of the people. Why do you have a problem with that?

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

MIKER

Saturday, May 3, 2014 10:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"He was overthrown by his people." A small minority with guns. Is that what you support?

"The ones you apparently support ..." Voted. Overwhelmingly. In large numbers. Freely and democratically. Hmmm ... how many other ways can I say that? Compared to what happened in Kiev, which happened at the point of a gun, what happened in Crimea truly was the will of the people. Why do you have a problem with that?

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?

Quote:
Miker:
I see you erased my last post. You are not arguing with me on behalf of the Ukrainian people. You are arguing against the world and all of Russia's other neighbors who are scared to death it won't stop here. Remember Georgia?

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

1KIKI

Saturday, May 3, 2014 10:35 PM

I have no idea what you're talking about.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

MIKER

Saturday, May 3, 2014 10:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MIKER:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"He was overthrown by his people." A small minority with guns. Is that what you support?

"The ones you apparently support ..." Voted. Overwhelmingly. In large numbers. Freely and democratically. Hmmm ... how many other ways can I say that? Compared to what happened in Kiev, which happened at the point of a gun, what happened in Crimea truly was the will of the people. Why do you have a problem with that?

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?
Quote:

Miker:
Quote:

I see you erased my last post. You are not arguing with me on behalf of the Ukrainian people. You are arguing against the world and all of Russia's other neighbors who are scared to death it won't stop here. Remember Georgia?

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