IMF to Kiev - fight for eastern Ukraine or die
POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 2, 2026 17:17
VIEWED: 24929
PAGE 4 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
MIKER... Do YOU understand what you're saying? Ukraine is far away and hasn't exactly been presented objectively in the press. So, here's the recap up to now:
Ukraine is geographically divided between the forested northwest and steppes in the southeast.
Northwest Ukraine had been part of Poland and Lithuania at one time, and southeast Ukraine part of Russia since about 1600. In some SE provinces, 80%+ of the people speak Russian. Overall, about 30% speak Russian. (I've posted about all of this before.) During the early part of revolutionary Russia, somewhere in the realm of 3-5 million Ukrainian small-holding farmers were starved to death in the Holdomor. Curiously, there doesn't seem to be much reference to the event in the current situation.
The USA has spent $5 billion to establish a pro-western group, which took root in NW Ukraine, near Kiev.
Ukraine has experienced many political changes since the breakup of the Soviet Union. Since the Orange Revolution it has been ruled by oligarchs in BOTH the pro-Russian and Ukrainian camps. The gas contracts with Russia, for example, have been battled over for control by the various oligarchs. The most recent disasterous contract with Russia was negotiated, NOT by pro-Russian Yanukovich or other pro-Russians (as you might expect) but by Yulia Tymoshenko (she of the braided hair) who is, technically, an Orange Revolutionary (albeit one who is connected to the very wealthy). Much of Ukraine's debt is owed to Russia under this particular contract, the high prices of which were offest to the customer by a government subsidy ... so, goodonya, Yulia, for impoverishing the Ukrainian government!
In light of this debt, Yanukovich was faced with two competing trade agreements- (1) with Russia, which was willing to buy $15 billion of bonds (basically a loan), cut their gas price, in a non-exclusive arrangement and (2) with the EU, which was willing to loan them money but ONLY if they doubled their internal customer gas price, reduced pensions by half, and ONLY in exclusive arrangement with the EU/IMF.
Not suprisingly, Yanukovich accepted the better deal with Russia. This incensed the pro-western liberals in Kiev.
During the protests, Putin (once again) offered a tripartite deal in which the EU and Russia could both enter into trade agreements with the Ukraine, which was turned down by the EU in favor of an exclusive trade arrangement.
During the protests, a phalanx of molotov-cocktail-throwing neo-Nazis were deployed in the Maidan, with support from the EU and the USA... Victoria Nuland ("Fuck the EU") handing out cookies, John McCain routinely appearing in photo-ops with pro-Nazi Tyahnybok, and the rioters routinely described as "peaceful protesters" in the Western press.
Under pressure, Yanukovich restrained the riot police - who had only their shields and batons in the midst of the riots- offered early elections (elections were set to occur in 2015 anyway, one might ask what the urgent urgency was) and positions in the government to the rioters, who turned down the offer.
After the offer was made, the heat was turned up on the riots. People were killed by snipers - wrongly attributed to Yanukovich and most likely by the neo-Nazi provocateurs- and Kiev was taken by force, even thought early elections were on the table. (One has to wonder if the rioters had doubts about winning an election, and decided to avoid the risk of running for office.)
"Yats" - a banker by trade and Victori Nuland's first choice, was appointed as the new unelected Prime Minister, and a number of neo-Nazis from the Svoboda Party and one from Pracy Sektor were appointed to "internal security" positions in the new unelected government.
One of the first acts of the new unlected government was to remove Russia as an official language. This was quickly rescinded, but made all Russian-speakers stronlgy suspicious of the new appointed government.NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
"Last response, I don't. A coup is usually used to describe the overthrow of a government by it's military. Not the case here."
So, is that what you're going to base your argument on? It wasn't a coup b/c a coup is USUALLY done by the military? WIKI would disagree with you about your false distinction. While a coup is USUALLY done by the military, it doesn't have to be. Coups can come from any direction.
So -
Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?
OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Last response, I don't. A coup is usually used to describe the overthrow of a government by it's military. Not the case here."
So, is that what you're going to base your argument on? It wasn't a coup b/c a coup is USUALLY done by the military? WIKI would disagree with you about your false distinction. While a coups is USUALLY done by the military, it doesn't have to be. Coups can come from any direction.
So -
Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?
OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."
I answered your question but will answer it again. NOT A COUP, but a revolution. In a democracy the people decide. They decided. It is their country and they can choose to do that if they wish. It is called impeachment.
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In a democracy the people decide. They decided.
No, they didn't. Look up further. There was no democratic process involved. You don't have command of the facts.
So -
Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?
OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
In a democracy the people decide. They decided.
No, they didn't. Look up further. There was no democratic process involved. You don't have command of the facts.
So -
Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?
b]
Posted by Miker:
You just can't let it go. It is not a coup. It is a revolution to kick out a corrupt regime and one representing Russia's best interest and not theirs. That is what started this. They want closer ties to the west and not just Russia. Give it up.
"Overthrow or repudiation and the thorough replacement of an established government or political system by the people governed".
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/revolution
You are like Russia. You think you can dictate to the Ukraine if you don't like that they kick a criminal out of office. Just look at the way the guy was living. He was robbing his country men blind. Who the fuck are you to tell them they can't?
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And all you have are your fantasies to back up your assertions. You have no facts.
Yanukovych and the opposition agreed to early elections. That is a fact. The protests escalated into violence due to the Nazi militias. That is a fact. Yanukovych left Kiev for a meeting in eastern Ukraine. That is a fact. There was some talk of impeaching Yanukovych in the parliament but it fell through and no vote was taken. That is a fact. Parliament named its speaker Oleksandr Turchynov as interim president on 23 February in a vote that was called illegal due to lack of a quorum. That is a fact.
So -
Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?
OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
And all you have are your fantasies to back up your assertions. You have no facts.
Yanukovych and the opposition agreed to early elections. That is a fact. The protests escalated into violence due to the Nazi militias. That is a fact. Yanukovych left Kiev for a meeting in eastern Ukraine. That is a fact. There was some talk of impeaching Yanukovych in the parliament but it fell through and no vote was taken. That is a fact. Parliament named its speaker Oleksandr Turchynov as interim president on 23 February in a vote that was called illegal due to lack of a quorum. That is a fact.
So -
Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?
OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."
Posted by Miker:
You just can't let it go. It is not a coup. It is a revolution to kick out a corrupt regime and one representing Russia's best interest and not theirs. That is what started this. They want closer ties to the west and not just Russia. Give it up.
"Overthrow or repudiation and the thorough replacement of an established government or political system by the people governed".
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/revolution
You are like Russia. You think you can dictate to the Ukraine if you don't like that they kick a criminal out of office. Just look at the way the guy was living. He was robbing his country men blind. Who the fuck are you to tell them they can't?
"In 1994 Ukraine was the third largest nuclear power. That same year Ukraine agreed to give up its nuclear arsenal with the promise from the United States and Russia that neither country would use force or threaten action against the newly independent nation". http://www.phillymag.com/news/2014/03/17/ukraine-crimea-iran-nukes/
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coup
a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.
YOU are like a fascist.
All this time I've been arguing for the democratic process. I've been pointing out that Yanukovych was legally, fairly and freely elected. I've been pointing out that early elections where people could have democratically voted to keep him in or kick him out were already set. I've been pointing out that the parliament did NOT legally use its available powers. I've been pointing out that the people of Crimea overwhelmingly and freely voted to join Russia. And unlike you, I have facts on my side.
And YOUR point? Well, people with guns overthrew the government. So it wasn't a coup because it wasn't the military. And that makes it democratic.
So -
Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?
OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
coup
a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.
YOU are like a fascist.
All this time I've been arguing for the democratic process. I've been pointing out that Yanukovych was legally, fairly and freely elected. I've been pointing out that early elections were already set. I've been pointing out that the parliament did NOT legally use its available powers. I've been pointing out that the people of Crimea overwhelmingly and freely voted to join Russia. And unlike you, I have facts on my side.
And YOUR point? Well, people with guns overthrew the government. So it wasn't a coup because it wasn't the military. And that makes it democratic.
So -
Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?
OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."
Posted by Miker:
You just can't let it go. It is not a coup. It is a revolution to kick out a corrupt regime and one representing Russia's best interest and not theirs. That is what started this. They want closer ties to the west and not just Russia. Give it up.
"Overthrow or repudiation and the thorough replacement of an established government or political system by the people governed".
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/revolution
You are like Russia. You think you can dictate to the Ukraine if you don't like that they kick a criminal out of office. Just look at the way the guy was living. He was robbing his country men blind. Who the fuck are you to tell them they can't?
"In 1994 Ukraine was the third largest nuclear power. That same year Ukraine agreed to give up its nuclear arsenal with the promise from the United States and Russia that neither country would use force or threaten action against the newly independent nation". http://www.phillymag.com/news/2014/03/17/ukraine-crimea-iran-nukes/
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I see you can't answer my questions or refute my facts. You can't even muster more than a brain-dead reply. Well done. You look like an idiot. And a fascist. I really do like it when I get to peg people.
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
coup
a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.
YOU are like a fascist.
All this time I've been arguing for the democratic process. I've been pointing out that Yanukovych was legally, fairly and freely elected. I've been pointing out that early elections where people could have democratically voted to keep him in or kick him out were already set. I've been pointing out that the parliament did NOT legally use its available powers. I've been pointing out that the people of Crimea overwhelmingly and freely voted to join Russia. And unlike you, I have facts on my side.
And YOUR point? Well, people with guns overthrew the government. So it wasn't a coup because it wasn't the military. And that makes it democratic.
So -
Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?
OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."
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