Is There Any Charactor On FireFly that annoys you?
POSTED BY: piratejenny
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 8, 2004 01:02
VIEWED: 26195
PAGE 7 of 10
Vena, I'm glad you don't have an immediate, irrational dislike for me. That's always neat.
I'm in agreement that the pack theory is a perfect way of looking at Jayne. I'd say that he turned on his previous pack because it had no alpha, or the alpha wasn't present. Marco and whatsits weren't leaders. Mal is, and offered Jayne his leadership, and so Jayne accepted it. Sorta reminds me of the kif in C.J. Cherryh's Pride of Chanur books. Anybody ever read those?
What really fascinates me about Jayne is that he thinks everybody thinks like he does. In the pilot, in Train Job, in Bushwhacked, and more, he expresses the belief that Mal is going to sell out Simon and River, because that's what he would do, and he can't conceive of any reasons-- beyond softness-- to do otherwise. And he knows that Mal's not soft. In Jaynestown, of course, we get his manifesto: "You think there's someone gonna drop money on you? Money they can use? Well there ain't people like that... There's just people like me." Perhaps this is why Jayne is so frightened of Reavers... his worldview doesn't accomodate purposeless evil any more easily than it accomodates pointless sacrifice.
EDIT: PirateJenny, damn good point about Kaylee's infatuation with Simon. I'm not convinced he's distancing himself from the situation quite as much as you think, and I would point out that when Tracy came onboard she was actively annoyed with Simon. Still, you've definitely got a point that first and foremost, Kaylee just wants to be loved.
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"You're mean. Firefly's making me reconsider my lifelong devotion to Star Trek." --My mother
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sikkukut:
I'm in agreement that the pack theory is a perfect way of looking at Jayne. I'd say that he turned on his previous pack because it had no alpha, or the alpha wasn't present. Marco and whatsits weren't leaders. Mal is, and offered Jayne his leadership, and so Jayne accepted it...
What really fascinates me about Jayne is that he thinks everybody thinks like he does...
Perhaps this is why Jayne is so frightened of Reavers... his worldview doesn't accomodate purposeless evil any more easily than it accomodates pointless sacrifice.
Excellent points.
The purpose of the "pack view" of the world is that it confers survival advantage. When it stops doing that in the wild, because of poor leadership or no leadership, a pack can disintegrate or die. And it's *Jayne* who has the "pack view." The people he is with may not have that view. Even worse, they may not recognize that he DOES have that view. Which ties straight into your second point:
He thinks that everyone thinks like he does... that is so canine. We fool ourselves into believing that our dogs think like we do, when in fact they think like dogs. There are many points of intersection between dog etiquette and human etiquette. But there are very real differences. A *LOT* of the incidents where dogs attack people result from people expecting a dog to be a less intelligent human, and thus not realizing that they are breaking a major "dog rule." That, I think, is the big reason why Jayne shot one of his previous "pack members" and joined up with Mal. They never figured out that he was a wolf! In another thread, I remember reading a spot-on dissection of how Mal treated each crew member differently in "Out of Gas" to improve the chances for survival. It was as if he instinctively knew that he needed to shout at Wash, but he needed to gentle Kaylee. I think he also knows that he needs to speak "wolf etiquette" with Jayne. Jayne gets his pack view confirmed... thus he can commit to the pack's protection.
Your comment about Jayne's reaction to Reavers is simply perfect. Nothing else needs to be said...
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny4004:
For what it's worth, I knew you were joking when you made the original comment, it's sad that others didn't. I think everyone should just relax, no one is going to punish you for not using proper grammar, but they might tease you a bit.
Thanks for saying.
I am just honestly stunned that I got flamed to death for that. If I'd wanted to insult Jenny, I woulda done. Instead I teased.
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I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jahzara:
.
Atherton gets on my nerves (he would NOT have grabbed me!) But he was soo gorgeous on Children of Dune.
I just wanted to say that crap yeah he was hot!
Shamrock
...Fear is the mind killer...
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PIRATEJENNY:
I had not thought about Simon’s response to Kaylee quite like that. It could be that what you see as him consciously deciding to not have a romantic relationship with her is what I have been miss interpreting as a form of wishy-wahy-ness on his part. Or even in some extremes, depending on how good a mood I’m in, rejecting her but half heartedly accepting her in the same breath as “all he’s got so best to make due with what I have.” My superior Psychology Major brain (Note the sarcasm in my voice 
) would say that this is a form of projection and if kept in check and I continue to be consciously aware of it that it is perfectly healthy.
SIKKUKUT and DANFAN:
I love this new perspective we have come up with to understand who and what Jayne really is. (at least I think it is new…) The books I prefer to read tend to run far into the Fantasy-Scifi genre. Of all the supernatural beasties I have always loved werewolves best of all. I find the sense of pack and the predictable and open social standings fascinating. Perhaps that is why I want to focus in on behavioral psychology, to find the rule book for our own society that dictates how and why we act. And we conclude this brief, terrifying look into Vena’s psyche with a new found understanding of why she has a crush on Jayne. That is all.
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Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
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Because I am an American. And what does an American want? Democracy? Capitalism. I want to sell out and settle down. For one day only, it's a blue light special on Aisle Three. My wormhole technology... and a free set of steak knives... for all the tea in China. And anything you can imagine to pay me... welcome to my cold war.
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Vena,
I am so looking forward to this movie. With the budget and scope of a theatrical release, I'm fair certain it will be wonderfully entertaining.
But the thing I miss about Firefly-that-would-have-been is the steady development of the characters that Joss surely had planned. Unravelling the mysteries of Inara, Book, Simon/River. Developing and growing the characters who were damaged or imprisoned by their pasts.
I think it was the latter that he planned for Jayne. In the seasons that never came, I think we might have seen Jayne grow, in fits and starts, from a noble wolf into a noble wolf with a man's heart. It woulda been sumpthin' to watch. That holds true for all their stories...
Hopefully Joss, Cappy and the Crew can capture it all in the movie(s) to come.
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Danfan, agreed on all points. The gradual character development is the very same thing I feel most bereft of with the cancellation of the series. Thanks again for the pack insight... it's a good one.
Vena, I had guessed from the way you talked about Simon that you'd have a crush on Jayne. And I, too, enjoy seeing packlike social standings work themselves out. As I mentioned before, the works of C.J. Cherryh are an excellent place to find some alien psychologies based around that concept. She writes aliens better than anybody else I've ever read.
Now, as for the pack thing, I would posit that among humans, those with the pack mentality are ill-suited to being alphas, and don't usually find themselves in that role (Jayne with his own ship? Ungggh). Rather, I would say there's a specifically alpha personality that rises to the top... or is it simply that these people are better at playing the pack game?
Also, I wanted to congratulate folks for not letting this thread bog down in insults. Plenty of times, even on this very board, I've seen minor altercations, not so different from the one earlier, turn into big, stupid, really nasty conflicts that kill a thread and leave everybody really upset. So you guys rock for not going that route.
I do find it interesting that people are listing villains, or rather, antagonists, as characters who rub them the wrong way... Aren't they supposed to, to a degree? When you say you don't like Atherton Wing, I have to wonder... do you dislike him as a person, as a character, or as an antagonist? As a person, he's despicable... that's rather the point. As a character, he's a little thinly developed but consistent. As an antagonist, I think he's very effective, precisely because one wants so badly to wipe that gose-eating grin right off the smug little bastard's face. So for folks who listed antagonists, I'm curious to hear why.
On the other hand, sometimes the most effective villains are the ones that you really want to like, and those have been thin on the ground in Firefly. Magneto from the X-Men movies and the villain from Alan Moore's Watchmen (not to spoil the ending) are two good examples. And of course, George R.R. Martin does such a good job with his Song of Ice and Fire that by the end of the third book you don't even know who you're rooting for.
And... I'm rambling. Sorry. Point is, this has sparked some interesting discussions that have really gotten me thinking. Thanks, all.
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"You're mean. Firefly's making me reconsider my lifelong devotion to Star Trek." --My mother
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piratejenny, et al:
Might I weigh in a bit? First, I found the characterizations in Firefly the most fascinating and palatable of any show I've seen on TV. Period. They were 3D when needed, 2D when appropriate and 1D in a very classically Greek way on occasion. Simply put, Joss is a genius at characters and dialogue.
The question: "Which character annoys you?" may be answered thus: "All of them, when it suits Mr. Whedon's purpose." Joss and his cronies know precisely how to tweak our noses, and can even manage to split us into camps based upon archetypical personalities. Jocks get Jayne. Nerds grok Simon. Thinkers relate to Book. The lovelorn sympathize with Kaylee. (Continue iteration, ad absurdum)
For the sake of honesty, while we may not admit it to our significant others, Inara captivates men in a way Kaylee-types never could. We may love, marry and raise families with 'Kaylees', but an Inara-in-distress requires chivalric action. This infuriates females. Oddly, it also infuriates men, but we can do nothing about it; it's a fact of hormonal response. Women are aware of this fact, and it only serves to amp up their annoyance with men and hatred of Inaras.
The mark of Joss' true genius -- and I don't care if this makes me a grovelling sycophant or not -- is that he has so marvelously written Mal's character as a leader that everyone recognizes him as such. All the other characters defer to him: Jayne -- who is clearly Mal's physical superior; Book -- who I believe was the Alliance military strategist in his former walk of life. Inara never openly challenges him, and she was once on a path to become Head Priestess of the House on Sihnon, per Nandi. Zoe -- perhaps the strongest female character ever written -- unquestioningly yields to his authority.
A leader must be a loner. He must never become so involved with those he leads that he becomes blind to their weaknesses. He must see them all as if in a ledger: assets and liabilities. He must use them to the greatest advantage, and work to negate their vulnerabilities through effective teambuilding. He must be gregarious, yet apart. Notice that his most trusted confidante -- Zoe -- keeps a respectful emotional distance from him: it's how it must be.
Further, JW cast Nat Fillion as Mal: another stroke of genius, IMO. His cameo in "Saving Private Ryan" was the most poignant piece of acting I can readily recall. Fillion, despite his initial misgivings with the darkness of the character, does an admirable and wholly believable job in the role.
If I might further presume to pose a corollary question: Which of the characters do you think is Joss' 'writer's voice'? Which one is -- at least most frequently -- a representation of Joss' personality? For the reasons stated above, I think it's Mal.
Others have called Joss an atheist; but Mal isn't; he's a apostate, one who's lost faith in God's benevolence and care for the faithful. It's not so much that Mal doesn't believe God exists, as it is that Mal thinks God doesn't love him. Combined with the character of Book -- Alliance General-turned-monk-from-shame -- as a counterpoint, what does that say about Joss Whedon's dormant spirituality?
As to punctuation, spelling and grammar: Anything worth saying is worth saying well, and accurately. Having said that, I've seen a lot of poor usage (especially in written form) from people whose opinions I respect otherwise.
A final note: My GSD -- who'll turn 1 year old in mid-October -- is named 'Jayne'. Good in a fight, he knows who the alpha male of the house is: Me. Just don't leave your steak unattended on a countertop. He'll scarf it down faster than his namesake would sell out the Tam sibs. Captain Reynolds understands this aspect of his 'dog' Jayne's character, too...
Respectfully,
zoid
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"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity
Only 230 days, 20 hours, 56 minutes, and 5 seconds l
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You are right PirateJenny, we Simon fans must stick together. Just to show my point of view regarding the Simon and Kaylee relationship. I have always seen it as Simon feeling he has nothing to offer at this time in his life. His life was been one of privilege and position, and usually people in that situation are evaluated by what they have and what they can bring to the relationship. Simon, where once he brought money, talent and standing now simply has the talent. He defines himself by what he used to be, instead of what he is now. He finds little value in himself, which is why I think he finds it easy to give his life for River, or at least put it on the line. He doesn't see that he has anything to offer anyone, so does not seek out a relationship. He was loosening up a bit towards the end of the run, as he has shown value to the group, but still had a long way to go.
I think Simon is brought up in a society where you don't show your cards, as it were. Relationships are calculations, rather than just emotional. Kaylee's out and out interest in him probably throws him completely, and it shows. It would have been interesting if they had an episode where Inara needed an escort, and Simon got to interact in a situation where he is comfortable and knowledgeable.
Once Simon got to the place where he was a member of the crew, full and accepted, I think he would have felt a lot more comfortable seeking out a relationship with the what-you-see-is-what-you-get Kaylee.
We also have to remember that the sentinel relationship of trust, that of parent and child, was destroyed, and therefore Simon has difficulties trusting anyone outside of River, whom he is protecting. Trust is paramount in any successful relationship.
Now, on to Jayne, who I admit isn't one of my favorites, but I do see where people are coming from regarding him. I imagine the Jayne we see, and the Jayne who behaves around his mother, takes off his hat in respect to religion are just facets of this canine. As for his treatment of Simon and River as being outside the pack, I think it is more a reaction of the threat to his own safety, rather than protecting the pack. While canine, Jayne is still human, and values himself above all the others, to him, that is the only sensible thing to do. Simon must drive him crazy because he continues to put River above himself, something Jayne doesn't understand is likely to be something Jayne doesn't trust. The fact Kaylee likes him adds to that distrust as well. When Simon strapped him to that table and had him paralyzed Jayne realized this dog can bite back, but isn't planning on it. So now Jayne has to deal with the fact that he has an opponent that isn't going to fight him, but isn't going to take it either.
Sorry about the meandering, I typed this on my break at work, and must get back to my nutty patients.
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeannaMay:
While canine, Jayne is still human...
DeannaMay,
You are, of course, correct. The Jayne character is not a pure canine. That would have become so boring so fast had the series continued. He is a human with strong canine traits. That allows the audience to grasp his essential nature and still be intrigued/surprised by the subtleties that his humanity would have revealed (like the unexpected reverence in the Message). I still feel that the series-that-would-have-been would have had some fun developing the conflict between these two elements of his nature, and showing how he learned to resolve those conflicts.
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