How to win an argument with Liberals-Progressives-Socialists-etc...
POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Thursday, June 16, 2011 09:23
VIEWED: 32999
PAGE 18 of 31
This thread just took a turn.
Frem wasn't right saying that to you, but calling him a pedophile is nasty business. You also try to make an argument about introducing the drug trade requiring both no government but somehow some drugs "outlawed" and you can't seriously tell me you think Frem is pro-gun-control, anti-homeschooling, anti-speech, or any of your other completely random accusations. Nowhere in that word salad do you explain just how Frem is responsible for single parent households, which boils down to what you believe is the cause of all society's ills.
Also, if you're really a Libertarian, look up the synonyms sometime. You'll find Anarchist among them.
You are lashing out indiscriminantly and you just pulled me in. Do you mean to burn every bridge you have on this board? I may have to wonder what spurred this on, I don't recall having seen you for a while, and now this.
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I wanted to return to this:
Quote:
The thing you are missing when you deride me for equating all of the leftist isms into one massive clusterfuck of wrong thinking, is this; all of them have one flawed premise at their core. That mistaken point of origin is that someone else is better suited to decide what is best for me.
This is wrong. Or at least, you missed one major 'ism' out - conservatism. You're not an anarchist are you HW? You believe in a government of some size and scope? Then you believe in a system of taxes - taking money off citizens at the point of a gun, and spending their money on services for them, whether they want those services or not. Right? That's what governments do, tax and serve. A good example is your belief (I assume) in a decent-sized, well-funded military, to serve the country by defending it against external threats. But some citizens, pacifists or whatever, don't want a decent-sized military to protect them, and you might never be able to talk them around. But you still believe in taking money off them in taxes, to provide them with that service anyway?
You believe in a system of government HW, indeed, it would be unthinkable to you that your country should try to function without one - therefore government is at the core of your political philiosophy. Therefore you believe in taxing people and that, as you say "someone else is better suited to decide what is best for them". You probably believe in it grudgingly, and call it a 'necessary evil' or somesuch. But you subscribe to it; and believe in it at the core of your political worldview.
So is your criticism of liberals that they believe the same as you, only not as grudgingly? Please explain.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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For people like Frem their "help" always has a price. Thats been my experience. Hey, maybe Frem is just a nice guy who never gets his kicks off the kids he helps. I could be wrong and am being all... irrational.
Also, I never said that he/she was anti-gun, anti-homeschooling.
Just that the modern day "liberals" were.
"No where in that word salad do you explain just how Frem is responsible for single parent households, which boils down to what you believe is the cause of all society's ills."
Is he/she responsible for all ills? No.
But a philosphy that encourages gun control, single parent households, spreading wealth, welfare, PC, and all of the other garbage.... IS.
"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"
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P.S. Hardware speaks as I wish I could speak.
I just don't have the patience or the kindness.
"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"
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...It's kinda sad that you don't trust that anyone can do something decent for someone, just to be decent. I'm sorry, Wulf.
Quote:
But a philosphy that encourages gun control, single parent households, spreading wealth, welfare, PC, and all of the other garbage.... IS.
I still don't see how that ties into any system Frem supports, but okay. I can see how you could come to the conclusion that single parent households are a potential cause of messed up upbringing. In the very least, you have a reduced income to support the family, and you have split attention between work and childcare. I can't tell if this is a chicken or egg thing, or whether income alleviates this or not, but setting that aside.
So what causes single parent households? Can be part culture, I'll admit, and teenagers being foolish, though I also think poverty may play a role.
Right now your argument looks like: liberalism ... single parent households, messed up generations, ineffective schools, increased crime, gun control, reduced speech, nanny state. I need the ellipses filled in for me. Is it secularism, feminism, both?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
For people like Frem their "help" always has a price. Thats been my experience. Hey, maybe Frem is just a nice guy who never gets his kicks off the kids he helps. I could be wrong and am being all... irrational.
Also, I never said that he/she was anti-gun, anti-homeschooling.
Just that the modern day "liberals" were.
Really? I'd wager I've got more guns than you do, Wulfie.
Homeschooling? Depends on how effectively it's done.
Quote:
"No where in that word salad do you explain just how Frem is responsible for single parent households, which boils down to what you believe is the cause of all society's ills."
Is he/she responsible for all ills? No.
But a philosphy that encourages gun control, single parent households, spreading wealth, welfare, PC, and all of the other garbage.... IS.
Not sure what "philosophy" you're thinking of, but I've never heard anyone ENCOURAGE single-parent households. Wait, that's not true - I *have* heard one group promote such a thing: Conservatives. How else do you explain what would happen if you got your dreams of outlawing all abortion, banning sex education, and insisting on abstinence-only education?
Or are you proposing a law that says that a man MUST marry any woman whom he impregnates?
'Cause if not, YOU are the ones promoting single-parent households.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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Wulf.
I agree that your assertion that Frem hurt the kids he helped is inapropriate and below the belt and just groty to say since you have no evidence of this idea. I think what has happened to you is that you're frustrated and feeling outnumbered, ... or something ... and so you are resorting to personal attacks that you have no evidence of because you feel like you're in a corner and so you're lashing out like a cornered animal of some kind. I don't think that's a very mature way to handle those feelings. Have I done it beofore? (the lashing out and being plain old mean, not the accusational part), yes I have, and I found it woefully ineffective and felt stupid afterwords.
So can we leave grotiness of that ilk out of this?
And for the record I've never seen Frem advocate gun control.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
P.S. Hardware speaks as I wish I could speak.
I just don't have the patience or the kindness.
Or the ability.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
P.S. Hardware speaks as I wish I could speak.
I just don't have the patience or the kindness.
Or the ability.
Or the talent. Or the smarts.
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Homeschooling, what a great idea. We can take more chances (and liberties) with our children's education while delaying their social development. Everybody wins!
I realize this can work out differently under the right circumstances with intelligent and dedicated enough parents, but in general I think it is a bad idea, even more so then public school. Remember, while you are training your children your children are also training you, they're crafty and perceptive like that. There is a real benefit to having multiple instructors and peers for them to develop socially along side.
As to the Wulf thing, they aren't exactly letting up. They do seem to be intentially baiting and provoking the desired nasty responses. I don't see this pattern ending any time soon. I don't think any of them want to hear an intelligent, polite, or insightful comment from Wulf. Doesn't make either side right and IMO doesn't even make it less wrong. Just pointless really, unless you enjoy the vitriol.
((don't remember who I clicked reply to or why, but this is a general comment, not aimed at one person))
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