What happened to "freedom of religion"?
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Sunday, April 21, 2024 23:47
VIEWED: 7822
PAGE 6 of 8
Quote:
http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2011/02/sharia_law_
Tennessee State Sen. Bill Ketron (R-Murfreesboro) and state Rep. Judd Matheny (R-Tullahoma) introduced a bill last week outlawing the practice of Sharia, a complex set of religious laws that guide behavior for Muslims. The bill attempts to define Sharia law and to make following it a felony punishable by 15 years in jail.
ban_proposed_in_tennessee.html
Can anyone honestly say THIS is not infringing on freedom of religion? There are “laws” in every religion—just like Sharia, some are practiced, some are not in different countries. But to make it a FELONY??
Anyone who honestly believes sharia law would “take over” is absolutely brainwashed by the deliberate provocation of paranoia by the right.
By the way, Constitutional scholars point out that Sharia law is religious law, and the first words of the First Amendment say, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." Ergo, all this bullshit is unconstitutional, given they MAKE LAWS infringing on a religion.
The use of this fear tactic is obvious by the fact that NOBODY but Muslims are or ever will be under its “jurisdiction”, and even Muslims can choose not to abide by it if they don’t want to, as is the case in many countries, including America. The Constitution says first, that the laws of the nation would be secular and that the government would not "establish" a religion (separation of church and state), and second, that people living here would be free to worship as they see fit, or not at all. These concepts are embodied in the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses of the First Amendment. But as the Founders declared in their writings -- and as U.S. courts have upheld ever since -- rights are not absolute and must be limited in order to preserve the society as a whole.
While there is unquestionably pressure within their community to abide by sharia law, the fact is that any Muslim who chooses to abide by US laws as opposed to sharia laws is free to do so, and that will be upheld in any US court. For example, “honor killings”: Only the most perverse logic would attempt to apply the subject to parents who might want to kill their child; there is no parental right to “honor killing.”
In July 2008, a Pakistani man living near Atlanta was prosecuted for beating his 25-year-old daughter to death for declining to go along with an arranged marriage to a cousin twice her age.
There are examples in the other direction, where judges have mistakenly upheld sharia law, but they’ve been overturned by higher courts. And again, the fact is that only MUSLIMS, and only Muslims who CHOOSE TO, abide by sharia law. That is indisputable. Yes, we have to be careful to ensure that Muslims abide by US laws rather than their religious laws, but to say that Americans will ever be held to account of sharia law is an outright lie. NOWHERE in the world, that I know of, have non-Muslims had to abide by sharia.
For there to be Islamic law(sharia) there can be no separation between state and Islam.(religion). To do this you must first put on hold the notion of "separation of church and state", which is going to happen. So for people to be afraid sharia will “take over” in our courts is ridiculous. Whatever any other country does, WE have a Constitution which forbids it, and the American people wouldn’t stand for it, however much they may have been incited to fear Islam.
Aside from that, the Founders were quite clear on the point that while there could be no abridgment of thought or belief in one's religious faith, there can and will be limitations placed on one's actions. Actions in the name of religious worship, when they conflict with the laws of the United States, are not protected. So any decision handed down by sharia law wouldn’t be legal under US laws, there’s no need to MAKE laws about it, it’s already IN the law. This is merely a fear tact
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The ooky thing is that people in America used to go watch public executions just like that, hangings and the like, yuck. I think they enjoyed it too, it was a social event, yuck. You wouldn't catch me at a public execution, legal or not.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Open your eyes a bit, please.
Pedophilia is supposed to be illegal, too.
Rape is supposed to be illegal, too.
That's a moronic defense. They still are illegal. The fact that certain people break these laws does not mean they are becoming acceptable.
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Yet in Wisconsin, Hmong groups still practice the traditional method of marriage - a grown man kidnaps a girl of about 12-14, rapes her, and thus she becomes his wife. Have not heard of a single one of these men being prosecuted, have you?
Why, yes. With a whole whopping 30 seconds of looking, I did find such a case:
http://www.shrdo.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=863:
appeals-court-hmong-marriage-provides-no-defense&catid=913&Itemid=124
Was the first link that came up. So I'm thinking wither you deliberately didn't look, or ignored facts which didn't suit your narrative.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Am I opposed to/afraid of mosks being built in my area? No, if they want to they can as long as they obtain the property etc. Am I afraid of Sherria law? Sort of. Am I afraid of Sherria law gaining a foot hold in the US? Not in the near future since we have laws against hurting girls and women etc. But Sherria law, well those aspects of it, do scare me some.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
Islam, like Christianity and Judaism is not a consistent religion, and Sharia law is interpreted differently in different places. Sharia is based upon the teachings in the Qu'uran but like all other religions, it is all in the interpretation. For example, no where in the Qu'uran does it say that women must wear the veil, or cover themselves from head to foot. It says that women AND men should dress modestly. The rest is in the interpretation.
My understanding is that a lot of interpretating depends on the culture of a place, what are the local traditions. That is why in Afghansistan women wear the burqa, which covers their entire body and face and but in other places women wear the hijab which is simply a veil which covers the head, but leaves the face uncovered. Niki has probably more to say on the burqa given that she has lived in Afghansistan, but I believe it is a local practice. Covering the head, for both males and females is pretty common in a lot of cultures. In orthodox Judaism, married women and all males must cover their heads. When I was growing up married women in the Catholic Church still wore mantillas to mass.
Really throughout much of human history, women have been treated as second class citizens and various laws, both religious and secular have reflected that. Up until the 20th century, Islam in most places probably had better laws regarding women that in Christendom, because at least it granted them divorce and property rights. The problem has been that as Christendom (or the increasinly secular west) has moved forward with regards to women's place in society, thanks to the feminist movement,and many countries that are Islamic have moved the other way, more conservative, less rights for women. It is true that fundamentalism has been on the rise in the Islamic world, for a variety of complex reasons including power struggles and conflict that have been won by the religious extremists. Iran is an example of that. For many Iranians, the introduction of an ultra othordox religious police state was not what they had hoped for with the Iranian revolution, but I guess that is always the danger in revolutions, you never know who is going to ultimately sieze power.
I guess what I am trying to say is that Sharia law can be practiced in all sorts of ways. In itself it is not particularly hard on women, but its the ultra conservative, ultra orthodox sects that interpret it in that way.
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Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
The ooky thing is that people in America used to go watch public executions just like that, hangings and the like, yuck. I think they enjoyed it too, it was a social event, yuck. You wouldn't catch me at a public execution, legal or not.
You sure ?
Cause a while back the Chinese had some financial bigwig pull some of the same shit that got CitiGroup thrown out of (I think) six foreign counties, including Japan...
And he got the rope for it.
Believe me, were they to hang some of these banksters who've done us over, I might very well set up a concessions stand and sell popcorn.
I'd reccommend impalement, rather than hanging though, old-school vlad-style, get more entertainment out of it that way, plus we can have a betting pool on how long it takes em to die.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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Even though there are indeed people who would find pleasure and enjoyment in watching execution, just as people did in the days of old, I don't think it should be legal. If people enjoy that sort of thing they should watch slasher movies, or become snipers to kill badguys or what have you, there are options, but public executions just encourage such feelings and I feel we should stick to not having them. I do reckon though that enterprizing individuals could make money at them, selling refreshments and all, still doesn't make it something I want happening in my city.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Can anyone honestly say THIS is not infringing on freedom of religion?
The government infringes on "Freedom of Religion" all the time, whenever 'religion' violates civil law. Practices such as polygamy, 'marriage' to child brides, etc. that some religions and sects want to follow are illegal and have been prosecuted. The IRS regularly goes after 'churches' that they consider to be nothing but tax-avoidance schemes. To go to silly extremes, I'm sure that churches conducting human sacrifice would be frowned upon, although the Supremes say animal sacrifice is okay. When some interpretaions of Sharia Law, such as punishments like flogging or cutting off limbs, come up against the 8th Amendment, that particular 'freedom of religion, would lose out.
If you think about it, you probably approve of infringing on people's 'freedom of religion'. Do you think same-sex marriage should be legal, and support laws to make it so? Do you want to do away with Sunday Blue laws? Then you're supporting the government's infringment on the freedom of religion of the folks who want to keep those religion-based laws in place.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Thank you, thank you Magons; very well said and appropos. And yes, the "chadri" is pretty exclusive to Afghanistan, and differs even within the country. The kuchi women (gypsies is closest we have) have never, EVER hidden their faces and are quite proud of it; city women cover from head to toe, tho' there are some professional women now that the Taliban isn't totally in control who wear scarves.Quote:
That’s also true; if one reads the Qu’ran, the teachings quite explicitly set out rights for women which many other religions did not...the problem is interpretive POWER: the Mullahs. They have always known (as have Christian priests) that their power over the people can be heightened by their control, especially control of women. One only has to look at the “Garden of Eden” thing, and all throughout the Bible, to see how that works. So whenever and wherever they have been able, Mullahs have increased their control over women worldwide. But the original Qu’ran and teachings of Allah, unlike the Bible, gave women a lot of respect and rights.
Up until the 20th century, Islam in most places probably had better laws regarding women that in Christendom, because at least it granted them divorce and property rights.
I don’t think Islam has actually moved backwards, I think the INTERPRETATION of it became more constrictive of women over the years, and in teh countries where Islam was indistinguishable from government, the power increased. Here, despite the pretty consistent efforts of the religious right, our forefathers having the foresight to insist on separation of church and state has allowed us to move forward...and most other Western cultures have as well. If the government of Muslim countries wasn’t tightly in the hands of the mullahs, I think that would have happened there as well, and may in time.
Geezer, you are not getting it. In fact, you just made my point in a way. “whenever 'religion' violates civil law...”. Polygamy IS still practiced and rarely does anyone go after it, because it is practiced WITHIN the religious community; anyone who doesn’t want to abide by that law can leave the culture and our laws will protect them. The same would be true for Muslims. That’s not “infringing” on those who WISH to practice it, that’s protecting those outside the religion. That is my point; that Muslim laws would never supersede civil U.S. law OUTSIDE the religion where it is practiced.
Going after pseudo-churches who are hiding behind religion to avoid our laws is appropriate; it’s using religion to avoid civil law, so has nothing to do with "religious law"...in fact, in my opinion it's wrong to let ANY church not pay taxes. Someone has to make a determination in order to stop fraud. It’s not perfect, certainly, but unless there is a more viable means to weed out fraud, it’s what we have.
As to cutting off hands and feet, that’s tougher; but I don’t see any case of it having taken place in America, so until it does, we’ll have to wait and see. Yes, that would be infringing on freedom of religion, but there, like some other aspects, I’m not sure what you do in order to allow that religious practice, unless the person to whom it happens wants to leave their faith, at which time there’s no DOUBT to me that they would be protected by U.S. laws. Unfortunately such things (and many of the provisions toward women) only come to light after the fact.
Same-sex marriage is a civil rights issue; within their religion, just like within Islam, Christians can enforce their own “laws” against it, just as they do contraception, divorce, etc. But to make a civil law AGAINST it, just like abortion and homosexuality, is to force people to abide by Christian laws, so wrong. It should have nothing to do with the public at large and their civil rights. Practically ANY religion can keep to its practices if it wants to, as long as they don’t go against U.S. laws. Anyone NOT of that religion doesn’t have to
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God used to have a female counterpart/aspect, the Shekina. Some historians have argued that the religion used to have a pair God and Goddess.
The Adam and Eve story is commonly misinterpreted as an excuse for misogyny.
Originally, it's suggested that Adam and his partner were created at the same time, either as two distinct entities or within the same entity and later separated. There's some dispute whether his first partner was Eve or Lilith.
The stories that Eve was made from muck or other lowly substance to the dust/mud/clay that was used for Adam, or that she was made from Adam's rib, came much later. Also, the whole thing about the apple and original sin isn't actually suggested to be the fault of women - rather, Adam carries original sin, because whereas Eve was tricked into tasting the fruit of knowledge, Adam chose to so she would not be alone.
The whole thing about the immaculate conception is not that Mary was a virgin, but rather that God intervened at the moment of Mary's conception, to make sure she would be free of the sin that would normally have passed to her from her father. This made her an appropriate vessel through which Jesus was then born.
And then I could get into Gnostic text and make comparisons to Shekina with Sophia and Eve and the Demiurge with Lilith, but this is already getting boring, so I won't.
Basically, most of the excuses from the Judeo-Christian texts to repress women are mistaken from what the mytho is SUPPOSED to suggest. But, unfortunately, it's also true that women were largely oppressed throughout most of the ancient world.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Geezer, you are not getting it. In fact, you just made my point in a way. “whenever 'religion' violates civil law...”. Polygamy IS still practiced and rarely does anyone go after it, because it is practiced WITHIN the religious community; anyone who doesn’t want to abide by that law can leave the culture and our laws will protect them.
I can see you're not getting it either. Polagamy is illegal. Polagamous marriage is not recognized by the government and any wives beyond the first one have no legal rights as spouses. I do notice you skipped right over forced marrigae of very young girls to hurch "elders" without a comment. The government is surely active in prosecuting this as a crime. As for leaving - based on recent cases concerning folks in very insular sects, it's very difficult for folks, especially chidren, who have no real knowledge of the outside world, or who believe that the safety of their soul depends on living by their elders rules, to just up and leave.
Quote:
As to cutting off hands and feet, that’s tougher; but I don’t see any case of it having taken place in America, so until it does, we’ll have to wait and see. Yes, that would be infringing on freedom of religion, but there, like some other aspects, I’m not sure what you do in order to allow that religious practice...
So you would allow flogging, cutting off limbs, stoning to death and "honor" killings if it was done by people of a certain religion to another person of that religion, as long as it was done under color of their religious practice? I would hope that if it even threatened to reach that point that you'd decide that there might be some good in reasonable control over the practice of that particular faith.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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