Here it is the libs are coming after our guns
POSTED BY: kaneman
UPDATED: Saturday, February 19, 2011 15:04
VIEWED: 19911
PAGE 15 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
you could easily find yourself in a civil war situation...
That's what has me bashing people over the head with the fact of WHAT THAT WILL COST, not in money, mind you, but in every way that matters the cost of such a thing is so horrific as to be all but unmentionable - and so they don't mention it, never address it, don't acknowledge it, as if they can pretend it into non-existence.
I refuse to let that happen, cause if folks work themselves into believing otherwise, into forgetting just what an atrocity that would be, go on thinkin it'll be all quick and easy....
That's when people do some terribly stupid shit, yeah.
Mind you, that's why I hated the ending of V for Vendetta - cause it fed that quick-n-easy myth, which it ain't, never was, never will be, but people don't wanna FACE that, and soooo.
Which is why I am so damn anvilicious about beating them over the head with it.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
you could easily find yourself in a civil war situation...
That's what has me bashing people over the head with the fact of WHAT THAT WILL COST, not in money, mind you, but in every way that matters the cost of such a thing is so horrific as to be all but unmentionable - and so they don't mention it, never address it, don't acknowledge it, as if they can pretend it into non-existence.
I refuse to let that happen, cause if folks work themselves into believing otherwise, into forgetting just what an atrocity that would be, go on thinkin it'll be all quick and easy....
That's when people do some terribly stupid shit, yeah.
Like invading Iraq, for one. People forget the horror of war, or think we've managed to "sanitize" it. Just because we don't see it on the news, doesn't mean it isn't happening.
This Space For Rent!
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Quote:Sometimes, peace doesn't work.
Originally posted by kpo:
Why then do you need guns to bring down the government, why can't you do it peacefully?
Quote:Case in point.
Think of tyrannical regimes that have quelled non-violent mass protests - Iran, Zimbabwe are two recent examples.
Quote:I wouldn't say that. It most definitely COULD happen in America. It isn't there right now, but it's heading in that direction.
You say this wouldn't happen in America, ...
Quote:For when it gets so bad that non-violent measures would be violently quashed.
So what's the role for guns then?
Quote:By the time violence is used against the govt, they are ALREADY heavy-handed and tyrannical.
If anything they give an excuse to the security services to be heavy-handed, and a license for a tyrannical government to be tyrannical...
There is a time and place and method for non-violent protests. You try that first. But if it doesn't work (as in the case of Iran, for example), it is time to simply defend oneself with arms. If the Iranian people had arms, they would be having an armed revolution now.
Quote:ALL tyrannical governments that have ever existed had loyal security services, from Rome to Czar's Russia to modern Iran. How else would they be tyrannical if they didn't have the means?
It would have to be a tyrannical government that somehow still had loyal (or at least 'firm') control of the security services.
Revolution occurs when citizens clash with the security services.
Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
...especially given the recent hyperbole of the right who currently see health care reforms, all taxation, all government funded services as being a direct threat to their tyranny.
You're mixing different groups of people here. The ones who are rabid about the health care reforms (Tea Party folk)--they aren't against all taxation. After all, they want their War against Terror, a large military, and heavily patrolled borders. That doesn't come free. They aren't against all govt funded services, just those for poor people. For all their incendiary rhetoric, they won't ever take over the govt because they need THIS govt for their goals.
The ones against all taxation and all govt services, like myself--we're in the very small minority. These are the hardcore libertarians. There are not enough of us to take Waco, with it's cult leader and a bunch of women and kids, let alone the govt.
Like with the use of a nuclear weapon, you need to piss off a sizable number of extremist nuts.
Quote:It's the same scary shit that started the American Revolution. What did they revolt for? A tax on tea?
A lot of extremists marching on washington who don't like government policy and are in a state of mind to kill fellow countrymen. That's scary shit.
Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.
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"If anything they give an excuse to the security services to be heavy-handed, and a license for a tyrannical government to be tyrannical..."
Hello,
I am always aghast at this sort of suggestion.
It's like saying, 'She deserved it for dressing like that.'
Making yourself utterly defenseless before a potentially tyrannical power does not strike me as the best means for stopping tyranny.
"Oh, but if you hadn't been so potentially dangerous, they wouldn't have needed to violate you" sounds pretty repugnant to me.
--Anthony
Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.
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Quote:
ALL tyrannical governments that have ever existed had loyal security services, from Rome to Czar's Russia to modern Iran.
Yep, I and Kane were working on the agreed premise that US citizens working in the military and security services would not obey tyrannical orders against their fellow citizens... (or it's hard to conceive of a scenario where they would)
So Kane's in my camp now; but I never assumed everyone would agree with mine and Kane's premise. Some people think that a US government could conceivably wield the state security services tyrannically against the people successfully (and even I don't rule it out, just find it hard to imagine). With these ppl I simply point out that revolting against a government with such a tight grip on power would be a potentially bloody disaster - like the Shia uprising against Sadaam after the first Gulf War, or the Warsaw uprising against the Nazis in 1944.
Quote:
If the Iranian people had arms, they would be having an armed revolution now.
Perhaps... Be careful what you wish for, the US government encouraged the Shia in Iraq to take up armed resistance against Sadaam - and they were quickly brutally crushed. Part of me would have liked to see an armed uprising in Zimbabwe long ago - but I cannot say that it would definitely succeed, or even that it would be worth the cost.
From Wikipedia on the Warsaw uprising:
Quote:
Although the exact number of casualties remains unknown, it is estimated that about 16,000 members of the Polish resistance were killed and about 6,000 badly wounded. In addition, between 150,000 and 200,000 civilians died, mostly from mass murders conducted by troops fighting on the German side. German casualties totaled over 2,000 soldiers killed, 7,000 missing, and 9,000 wounded. During the urban combat approximately 25% of Warsaw's buildings were destroyed. Following the surrender of Polish forces, German troops systematically leveled 35% of the city block by block.
A dispute I have with you Americans is that I think the idea of tyranny that you have in your heads is the very genteel and quaint brand of 'tyranny' that we British imposed on you -taxation without representation or whatever. I still have strong doubts that an armed US citizens' uprising could succeed against REAL tyranny. All I know is it would be bloody.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"If anything they give an excuse to the security services to be heavy-handed, and a license for a tyrannical government to be tyrannical..."
Hello,
I am always aghast at this sort of suggestion.
It's like saying, 'She deserved it for dressing like that.'
Making yourself utterly defenseless before a potentially tyrannical power does not strike me as the best means for stopping tyranny.
"Oh, but if you hadn't been so potentially dangerous, they wouldn't have needed to violate you" sounds pretty repugnant to me.
--Anthony
Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying I would condone or approve of the subsequent tyranny, only that it would give the government an excuse - or a pretext.
My wording could've been better I'll admit.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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I agree, Hardware...it’s always fascinated me how easily people can be stirred up to act out of fear.
KPO, wonderfully said, and exactly how I feel!
And yeah, Mike, I noticed that a long time ago. Problem is, I don’t think HE’D actually do it; he wants a government in place that will do it for him...then, of course, he’d grouse about that government infringing on “liberties”...
Magons, yup, but don’t worry about it; will never happen. We’re just too big and too independent of thought for anyone to get enough of an “army” to do anything serious. Small “cults”, sure, but they end up only able to control their own little populations, or being taken down by the government. It’s not something I fear; far more I fear this stupid gun rhetoric convincing enough idiots LIKE Wulf that it’s possible, and the blood that would flow as a result. As Frem said,Quote:
That about says it; enough rhetoric encouraging people to think along those lines, and you’ve got a damned bad situation, little more.
I refuse to let that happen, cause if folks work themselves into believing otherwise, into forgetting just what an atrocity that would be, go on thinkin it'll be all quick and easy....
That's when people do some terribly stupid shit, yeah.
And yeah, Frem, I agree about V; for me that was just a great visceral outlet, and I enjoyed the black-and-white terms of it...because it was a MOVIE, and they’re for getting entertained, not taking as reality (of course Wulf’s not listening...). Case in point, the mentality CTTS exhibits. Far too many people ALREADY think that way, so they don’t need encouraging. America will never be overthrown, from within or without, mostly ‘cuz of our size and diversity. Now, if the states were to break up, that would be a different matter, but I doubt that will happen in anyone alive’s foreseeable future either. It’s just too easy for people to think in black and white and forget all the consequences...talk about visceral!
We’re not headed for tyranny, far from it. The current rhetoric may make some people believe we are, which makes me sad for them. Too much energy/thought directed toward what I see as idiocy is always sad. Even sadder would be if they DID get their wish!
Ditto KPO again:Quote:
Too many people view uprising as romantic and that it would unquestionably bring about what they want, without really knowing WHAT they want in the first place.
The dispute I have with you Americans is that I think the idea of tyranny that you have in your heads is the very genteel and quaint brand of 'tyranny' that we British imposed on you -taxation without representation or whatever. I still have strong doubts that an armed US citizens' uprising could succeed against REAL tyranny. All I know is it would be bloody.
Mostly I suppose I just think it's silly--when you contrast America with REAL tyranny, we're just a bunch of spoiled kids throwing a tantrum 'cuz mom tells us to eat our veggies. In contrast to the vast majority of the rest of the world, we ARE terribly spoiled, in my opinion.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Too many people view uprising as romantic and that it would unquestionably bring about what they want, without really knowing WHAT they want in the first place.
Mostly I suppose I just think it's silly--when you contrast America with REAL tyranny, we're just a bunch of spoiled kids throwing a tantrum 'cuz mom tells us to eat our veggies. In contrast to the vast majority of the rest of the world, we ARE terribly spoiled, in my opinion.
We are living on the dividend of massive investment during the depression and in the post war years when we were incredibly flush from a total employment, even over-employment economy. There was a post-war recession, but ultimately our economy boomed and we had massive technological adavances in part due to the space race.
Unfortunately, the massive dividends have been squandered on entitlement programs. We've incentivized people to have children they cannot support and now there's no way to cut the incentives without a political backlash on any party that does the cutting. Entitlements now account for twice the amount of military spending the US federal budget does. Getting the government into the retirement and aid to the poor business has been demonstrated aptly to be a bad idea. Unfortunately it's a pit trap with no way out.
So, the amazing Hardware will now progonosticate on the future.
Within 15 years the US debt will grow to such proportions that nobody will be willing to extend credit to us.
The lack of credit to the federal budget will force the government to go on a starvation diet.
Wealthier states will start with complaints about paying more than their fair share. The complaints will grow until they refuse to pay out more in taxes to the federal government than they take in.
Military forces will be used to bring these "rebel" states back into line.
Meanwhile the end of entitlement programs will cause a run on the banks and dissolve the Federal Reserve system, as it collapses under it's own weight.
With no national body to create currency left, regional banks that remain solvent will begin to print their own fiat currencies. Several will collapse under mismanagement.
During this period of unrest and uncertainty, cities will become uninhabitable as decaying infrastructure and lack of resources makes it impossible to bring food and materials to the city centers. The remains will become abandoned wrecking yards that will be mined for materials.
With a growing distrust of fiat currencies the government(s) will have no choice but to issue bullion based currencies or bullion coinage.
With a resource based currency in place, the economy can now be rebooted and real, sustainable growth can occur.
May it please God that I am dead and buried before this comes to pass.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36
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Quote:What mentality is that?
Originally posted by Niki2:
Case in point, the mentality CTTS exhibits. Far too many people ALREADY think that way,....
I believe our govt COULD become tyrannical enough that a sizable portion might revolt. But it doesn't mean it WILL happen or that it will happen soon. COULD simply means possible. It doesn't mean probable.
The only thing I've advocated is keeping our right to own arms, as a deterrent against tyranny. (It is very similar to the idea that if the other side has nuclear weapons, we should too, as a deterrent, not to use.) I believe keeping our arms will slow down the road to tyranny, maybe even prevent the worst case scenario altogether.
I've never advocated using arms to overthrow tyranny.
I've advocated trying all non-violent methods of redress FIRST. Even then, I still do not agree with resorting to violence (remember, I am a pacifist), but I do understand it.
I advocate keeping arms precisely because I believe getting as close to an equilibrium in power between the people and the govt improves the chances of non-violent change.
So, I am very unclear what mentality you are speaking of.
Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.
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