Afghan women and the Taliban - please take the time to read

POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Friday, July 14, 2023 00:00
VIEWED: 9122
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NIKI2

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 9:49 PM

Quote:
Our cover image this week is powerful, shocking and disturbing. It is a portrait of Aisha, a shy 18-year-old Afghan woman who was sentenced by a Taliban commander to have her nose and ears cut off for fleeing her abusive in-laws. Aisha posed for the picture and says she wants the world to see the effect a Taliban resurgence would have on the women of Afghanistan, many of whom have flourished in the past few years. Her picture is accompanied by a powerful story on how Afghan women have embraced the freedoms that have come from the defeat of the Taliban — and how they fear a Taliban revival.

I thought long and hard about whether to put this image on the cover of TIME. First, I wanted to make sure of Aisha's safety and that she understood what it would mean to be on the cover. She knows that she will become a symbol of the price Afghan women have had to pay for the repressive ideology of the Taliban. We also confirmed that she is in a secret location protected by armed guards and sponsored by the NGO Women for Afghan Women. Aisha will head to the U.S. for reconstructive surgery sponsored by the Grossman Burn Foundation, a humanitarian organization in California. We are supporting that effort.

I'm acutely aware that this image will be seen by children, who will undoubtedly find it distressing. I apologize to readers who find the image too strong, and I invite you to comment on the image's impact.

But bad things do happen to people, and it is part of our job to confront and explain them. In the end, I felt that the image is a window into the reality of what is happening — and what can happen — in a war that affects and involves all of us. I would rather confront readers with the Taliban's treatment of women than ignore it. I would rather people know that reality as they make up their minds about what the U.S. and its allies should do in Afghanistan.

We do not run this story or show this image either in support of the U.S. war effort or in opposition to it. We do it to illuminate what is actually happening on the ground. As lawmakers and citizens begin to sort through the Wikileaks information about the war and make up their minds, our job is to provide context and perspective on one of the most difficult foreign policy issues of our time. What you see in these pictures and our story is something that you cannot find in those 91,000 documents: a combination of emotional truth and insight into the way life is lived in that difficult land and the consequences of the important decisions that lie ahead.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2007269,00.html#ixzz17Yh
0FeTt

Aisha's story:

Quote:
The Taliban pounded on the door just before midnight, demanding that Aisha, 18, be punished for running away from her husband's house. They dragged her to a mountain clearing near her village in the southern Afghan province of Uruzgan, ignoring her protests that her in-laws had been abusive, that she had no choice but to escape. Shivering in the cold air and blinded by the flashlights trained on her by her husband's family, she faced her spouse and accuser. Her in-laws treated her like a slave, Aisha pleaded. They beat her. If she hadn't run away, she would have died. Her judge, a local Taliban commander, was unmoved. Later, he would tell Aisha's uncle that she had to be made an example of lest other girls in the village try to do the same thing. The commander gave his verdict, and men moved in to deliver the punishment. Aisha's brother-in-law held her down while her husband pulled out a knife. First he sliced off her ears. Then he started on her nose. Aisha passed out from the pain but awoke soon after, choking on her own blood. The men had left her on the mountainside to die.

This didn't happen 10 years ago, when the Taliban ruled Afghanistan. It happened last year. Now hidden in a secret women's shelter in the relative safety of Kabul, where she was taken after receiving care from U.S.

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NIKI2

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 10:01 PM

Bump. Because I keep hoping I can at least bring some sense of perspective and understanding to the situation in Afghanistan, and figure the more you know, the better you can choose what you believe.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

CANTTAKESKY

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 11:18 PM

I knew about this.

I know about a lot worse, if you can imagine it, happening to women in many parts of the world.

It breaks my heart. It does.

But what's the answer?

Military invasion to all countries where a section of the population is routinely mutilated? We are so used to the expedience of violence, even in our own lives, that violence is easily the first resort that comes to mind.

The way I see it, you either accept violence as a solution and send our boys all over the world to protect these women forever...or....you look for a different solution.

People are very creative. Once they commit themselves to looking for a solution, commit themselves to certain parameters, they can find many different solutions.

Personally, I think the bottom line of alternative solutions is to give up our way of life. As Derrick Jensen described it, the problems are so pervasive that at some point, you have to realize you can't keep living your lifestyle and still address those problems. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

(Well, with military solutions, you can try. You can live your life and send someone else to die for your ideals. But that solution isn't sustainable, as we can witness with the destruction of our own economy.)

At some point, the violence is going to have to sicken us so much that we are willing to say, "I am ready to pursuit of the American dream, my surburban house, my picket fence, and give everything I have and will have to stand with my fellow human beings."

Once we have that foundation, we go over there ourselves, smuggle in loads of weapons, and give every woman a gun and teach her how to use it.

Or find some other equivalent way to empower those women.

I guarantee that you won't see pictures like these again.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

ANTHONYT

Thursday, December 9, 2010 2:46 AM

Hello,

American lead won't cure Afghani ills.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

CANTTAKESKY

Thursday, December 9, 2010 2:59 AM

Anthony,

I was only half kidding about arming those women.

I was completely serious about empowering them though. Arming them is only one way out of many.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

ANTHONYT

Thursday, December 9, 2010 3:02 AM

Hello,

I wasn't criticizing your statement. I was making my own statement about being in the business of war to liberate oppressed people.

Social pressure is the only way to affect that kind of change without becoming oppressors and murderers ourselves.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

THEHAPPYTRADER

Thursday, December 9, 2010 3:34 AM

While I agree that violence isn't exactly the ideal solution, what do you do when one faction with weapons inflicts violence on the unarmed and defenseless? While I'm not crazy about it being us, someone has to stand up to these assholes.

GEEZER

Thursday, December 9, 2010 3:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
We see things through the prism of our own lives, which makes it a political discussion about when we should leave, if we should leave, etc. I don't have that luxury; I'm not sure whether I wish I did or not. But I'm afraid, for me, the issue must live in the greys...

Niki.

That's the hell of it. We see these things that are abhorrent to our very souls, and yet know that there's no way short of imposing an entirely foreign system of values on the places where they happen that would solve them. Do we decide that these crimes are just so horrid that whatever the solution, we have to apply it, or let them continue because ending them would be anathema to our ideal of self-determination?

Yes. There's a lot of grey out there.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CANTTAKESKY

Thursday, December 9, 2010 3:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
While I'm not crazy about it being us, someone has to stand up to these assholes.

The only sustainable solution is for that "someone" to be the victims and potential victims. THEY have to be the ones to stand up for themselves, or the protectors/rescuers will have to be there forever.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

ANTHONYT

Thursday, December 9, 2010 3:45 AM

Hello,

Not to mention that in order to FORCE the change we want to see, we'd be doing things a lot worse than cutting off noses.

War is every hell you can think of, even when the participants strive to act in the most honorable and decent fashion.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

CANTTAKESKY

Thursday, December 9, 2010 3:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
... or let them continue because ending them would be anathema to our ideal of self-determination?

When a segment of the population is horrifically destroyed as these women are, there is no self-determination there.

There is no conflict of ideals for me. Self-determination is for EVERYONE, not just the oppressors. These victims did not choose to be victims. They don't have cultural values that say its ok for them to be mutilated.

Victims need to be empowered so they can say no for themselves. Military solutions, or any kind of "rescue" mission, doesn't empower. It only provides a short relief, then it's back to the same old shit by different names. In liberal terms, rescue missions are not sustainable.

Sustainable empowerment gives victims options. If they defend themselves, instead of our doing it for them, they can choose a way that is consistent with their cultural values--or change those values if they want to. Sustainable empowerment sidesteps the landmines of cultural imperialism here.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

GEEZER

Thursday, December 9, 2010 3:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
There is no conflict of ideals for me. Self-determination is for EVERYONE, not just the oppressors. These victims did not choose to be victims. They don't have cultural values that say its ok for them to be mutilated.

Victims need to be empowered so they can say no for themselves. Military solutions, or any kind of "rescue" mission, doesn't empower. It only provides a short relief, then it's back to the same old shit by different names. In liberal terms, rescue missions are not sustainable.

Sustainable empowerment gives victims options. If they defend themselves, instead of our doing it for them, they can choose a way that is consistent with their cultural values--or change those values if they want to. Sustainable empowerment sidesteps the landmines of cultural imperialism here.

I'd be interested in your detailed solutions for "Sustainable empowerment" of Afghan women in Taliban-controlled areas.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, December 9, 2010 8:19 AM

http://www.rawa.org/index.php

You could try ASKING them.

ETA: Also, RAWA alleges the Time story is fake, that the incident in question occured previous to the time frame specified, and by the husband - unfortunately *neither* version of the story can seemingly be confirmed; not that it matters cause it's a damn unacceptable tragedy either way.

-F

CATPIRATE

Thursday, December 9, 2010 9:00 AM

Niki2 wake up to the way the world is it's ancient. It always has been. The movie Taken. That's not bull. I seen that stuff back in the mid 80s in Naples Italy. Child prostitutes in Istanbul. This is the way the world really is. The US Army keeps the animals out. Bye the way don't lecture me I'll be over there in a week so cut me some slack. I am wanna of the good guys.

CANTTAKESKY

Thursday, December 9, 2010 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
You could try ASKING them.

LOL You'd think that would be obvious, wouldn't it?

I just looked at their Amazon wishlist
http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/1FQ7ZTOVB3XI3

It is full of cameras and A/V equipment. This appears to support DT's position that cameras are the new guns.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

CANTTAKESKY

Thursday, December 9, 2010 12:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I'd be interested in your detailed solutions for "Sustainable empowerment" of Afghan women in Taliban-controlled areas.

In my view, the only way empower a group of people sustainably consists of 4 steps:

1. Emigrate and be a permanent part of their community.
2. Investigate the real story. While there, you can better understand the nuances of the conflicts, identify major obstacles, and respect local values.
3. Come up with creative solutions. You can do it (as opposed to them) usually because being a newbie allows you to think outside the box. Immigration brings that kind of strength, where you are able to combine the best of two worlds and form hybrid cultures.
4. Implement and experience the solutions. While thinking outside the box, you've moved inside the box at the same time. So whatever you are suggesting for them applies to you too. That is, there is no more "them." Whatever solution you propose applies to "us."

Creative solutions are going to be different for different parts and populations of the world.

I have one detailed plan for sustainable empowerment in one part of Africa. I can't give the details because part of the plan requires some anonymity. But here is a general overview.

1. There are tribes whose members (including women and children) are never messed with. They already have a self-defense infrastructure in place.
2. Through diplomatic and economic channels, become a part of those communities' protective circles. Form a defensive alliance with them.
3. Start adopting mutilated, outcast women into your own community. Through the alliance, they are also now connected to the tribal communities no one ever messes with.
4. As part of the alliance, these women have to learn a new mentality and skills of self-defense.
5. As the community grows, these mentalities and skills will gradually spread to other not-yet victimized women and tribes, who will then be ready to defend themselves.

----
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

SIGNYM

Thursday, December 9, 2010 1:14 PM

At lot of it boils down to basic mutual self-defense. If society and government are hostile to women, then women have to get together as communities for self-defense and economic empowerment.

There are other ways to help, though. First do no harm. The US should stop funding and arming groups which have a misogyny as a basic tenet. The Taliban (and the warlords) were fertilized by the USA in our never-ending quest to make the world safe for corporatism. We did, so yipee for us.

Second, use trade as an inducement to change. If we could get out of those stupid so-called "free trade" agreements, or (better yet) convert those agreements to impose tariffs on nations without UN-approved elections, and with low literacy rates and legal inequities, then the overlords of those societies (who typically skim trade and aid) will see a pocketbook benefit to improving life in their nations.

But those make too much sense, and they ding the pocketbooks of the military industrial complex and the corporations which get cheap commodities and labor from slave-like conditions, so of course that will never happen.

GEEZER

Thursday, December 9, 2010 2:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
http://www.rawa.org/index.php

You could try ASKING them.

Unfortunately, their list of successes is pretty small. They don't seem to be in a position to turn, or even stem, the tide.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Thursday, December 9, 2010 2:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
In my view, the only way empower a group of people sustainably consists of 4 steps:

1. Emigrate and be a permanent part of their community.
2. Investigate the real story. While there, you can better understand the nuances of the conflicts, identify major obstacles, and respect local values.
3. Come up with creative solutions. You can do it (as opposed to them) usually because being a newbie allows you to think outside the box. Immigration brings that kind of strength, where you are able to combine the best of two worlds and form hybrid cultures.
4. Implement and experience the solutions. While thinking outside the box, you've moved inside the box at the same time. So whatever you are suggesting for them applies to you too. That is, there is no more "them." Whatever solution you propose applies to "us."

This might work if, at some point, the Taliban or some other fundamentalist male-domination outfit didn't decide you were messing with their prerogatives and put you down, along with anyone you'd 'contaminated' with your ideas. These guys don't really want an enlightenment or strength for the women - or pretty much anyone who's not them - in their world. It's been shown pretty conclusively that they'll use just about any means to keep things the way they like them.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Thursday, December 9, 2010 3:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Second, use trade as an inducement to change. If we could get out of those stupid so-called "free trade" agreements, or (better yet) convert those agreements to impose tariffs on nations without UN-approved elections, and with low literacy rates and legal inequities, then the overlords of those societies (who typically skim trade and aid) will see a pocketbook benefit to improving life in their nations.

And when we (the U.S.) end trade with these bad actors, China steps right in and says, "We don't care what you do to your people. We just want the money and natural resources."

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CANTTAKESKY

Thursday, December 9, 2010 3:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
This might work if, at some point, the Taliban or some other fundamentalist male-domination outfit didn't decide you were messing with their prerogatives and put you down, along with anyone you'd 'contaminated' with your ideas.

That is where self-defense and empowerment comes in.

The difference is, we victims would be defending ourselves and fighting for ourselves. The conventional military solution has temporary rescuers come in to defend us, then leave, putting us right back where we started, if not worse.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

NIKI2

Thursday, December 9, 2010 6:35 PM

CTTS, I disagree:

Quote:
to stand up for themselves, or the protectors/rescuers will have to be there forever.

That’s not what I saw happening in Afghanistan. While we were there, given just the tiny inch of the sewing lessons, with sewing machines and patterns provided by American companies, and yes, the BIG inch given by a Shah who wanted women liberated, they made enormous strides in just a couple of years. Women were being allowed to educate, held jobs, were doctors, in government, etc. Even while the Russians were there, women got better treatment than now on the whole. Even AFTER the Russians—-it wasn’t until the Taliban came to power that things reversed themselves, to the point where they are now.

Given WE had a hand in what happened after Russia left (even I getting RID of Russia), and our ignoring the situation let the Taliban come back into power, do we owe them anything? Yeah, I know all the good and bad; we haven’t done it right, Karzai’s a lousy puppet and corrupt, WE’re corrupt, there’s too much collusion with the drug dealers, etc., etc. On the other hand, women are taking charge, standing up for themselves, making strides again with us there now. So I understand the arguments against us staying; it’s not philosophical for me, I’m only offering information; I’m not wise enough to say whether we owe them to stay or have fulfilled our responsibility for what we had a hand in starting and should go, or what will happen when we go...and we will. That’s all. How could I possibly argue one side or the other, when I’m not solid myself on whether we should stay or go, given the situation?

What we’ve done IS empowering them...Frem will no doubt come along and talk about that. It’s not just that we came in and made war, it’s that our protection has gone a long ways toward allowing them to achieve some power. I just don’t know if it’s sustainable, if it’s “enough” yet, or if it will ever be enough. I agree with Geezer; aside from what we’re doing now, I too would like to hear what solutions you could suggest for any other form of empowerment.

Ooops, there IS Frem...I knew you’d pop in eventually with info on RAWA. The article DOES say the husband did it, along with the brother-in-law, so I don’t see any discrepancy there. Obviously I can’t know if the story is true or not, I can only look to reporters and others to tell us. I just put it out there. If people bother to go to the link, as Geezer did (thank you Geezer, for doing so), just the headlines show you the insanity of the situation...corruption, Iranian/Saudi/Al Qaeda involvement, and so many more things. It’s an incredibly complex situation, with no one---or even “several” solutions.

Catpirate, you’re going to Afghanistan? Jezus, I’m sorry. You don’t get it; as I said, I’m not arguing for us staying, I put information out there to hopefully help us understand. I’ve never argued 100% for our staying, I know the problems, I know the arguments on both sides. I’m in the middle, because BOTH arguments are good and both are bad, to me. Don’t make me the one not cutting you—-or anyone ELSE---slack. I’m not neutral on this, I’m stuck with one foot on each side. Given my love for the country, I will always try to offer things to further educate people and hopefully be a balance to us seeing things through the veil of living in America. I’m called a “terrorist sympathizer” because I try to do the same about Islam and Muslims. Attempting to bring perspective and reminders of the greys doesn’t make ME the bad guy, either.

The more we understand, the better chance we have of making good decisions, of living less in the black and white. That’s why I put up some of the things I do, especially about Afghanistan, Islam, Muslims, etc.

Sig, yes, I liked your idea

Quote:
Second, use trade as an inducement to change. If we could get out of those stupid so-called "free trade" agreements, or (better yet) convert those agreements to impose tariffs on nations without UN-approved electio

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CANTTAKESKY

Thursday, December 9, 2010 6:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
...we all too easily forget what's happening outside our own lives and our own politics.

I grew up in third world countries, military dictatorships, and police states. I live in a third world country now. I think about the "wider horizons" all the time, maybe the way Frem thinks about kids. I don't forget.

If you want, I can start new threads about all the genocides that are going on in the world right now. Won't that be cheery?

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

CANTTAKESKY

Thursday, December 9, 2010 6:50 PM

This is for you, Niki.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, December 9, 2010 8:19 PM

Well, of course they're struggling - we're supporting the Northern Alliance Warlords and these days even kissing Taliban ass... in fact I'm a little surprised the State Dept hasn't labelled RAWA as a terrorist organization as a sop to Kharazis goons...

And we DID bomb a couple of their facilities when supposedy-trusted contacts (who in their right fuckin mind would trust Kharazi and his boys, I ask you ?!) pointed them out as "terrorist training camps" and we didn't bother to verify any damn thing before sending in the ordinance.

There's also that they are anti-violence to a degree that makes me grind my teeth, but factually there's just not ENOUGH of them, and getting into a shooting war with not only the fundies, but the goddamn US Military which'd back them up would result in nothing more than getting them all dead, so what the hell would you have us do ?

On top of that, there's a certain naive blindness there, many of em think if they can just get their message out far enough, wide enough, to the right people... thing is, the world KNOWS, they just don't give a fuck, which is a whole different *problem*, but try getting that across a language barrier when their damn translators keep winding up "collateral damage" of american bombs - especially when none of em WANTS to believe that.

Also, although not currently listed on their wish list, cause someone got them sufficient stocks for the near future - they can also use water testing and purification equipment, since the damn Talitubbies have taken to poisoning the water supplies of their schools and safehouses.

Look, I'd be *more* than happy to run guns to em if I thought it would do any damn good, but there's just not enough of em - while they shy away from admitting it, they take a pretty brutal amount of casualties as it is, and as of late, while we don't have solid proof, it's suspected that US Intel Assets have been helping the Kharazi regime locate and crush their action cells, which adds to the potential of a shooting war with the US Military if they did start putting lead in the air - not helping the damn fundamentalists wreck em would be a damn good start if we really wanted to help these folk.

The second thing would be to offer some protection so that the rescued and educated children have some chance to grow up, and have an impact on the society, which very few of them actually do since those ideas are unwelcome and unwanted by the dicks we're helping hold the country in an iron fist.

Or we could just, yanno... LEAVE, and let matters take their course - which would result in the corrupt puppet regime being squished like a bug by one or more of the fundamentalist factions within the year, but without external support would also soon fall to infighting which we could exploit the hell out of by quietly supporting RAWA or even use as a humanitarian excuse to get some UN support and protection for em.

In short, first things first, WE need to stop backing the wrong side.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

HERO

Thursday, December 9, 2010 8:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Social pressure is the only way to affect that kind of change without becoming oppressors and murderers ourselves.

Social pressure only works in open societies. Ghandi and the Indian liberation is a great example. Britain's open society allowed social change to be effected. Do you really think India would have been freed without much violence if they'd been dealing with Nazis instead of Brits?

Another good example is the American Civil War. I agree that social pressure would likely have ended slavery...but war ended it as well. Would you have said to a slave 'you must remain a slave because I'm not willing to fight for your freedom?'

Violence is not always the answer. But sometimes it is the answer. Guy wants to cut off a woman's nose, she's got a right to kill him and she's got a right to some help if he tries to do it to her. Does not matter if she live next door or in Afganistan.

Ultimately this is pretty much what the whole conflict is about. Why do Muslim extremists hate Americans? We never shared common interests, they made good trading partners, they liked our guns, we liked their horses...we never tried to colonize them...what set them off all of a sudden? The answer is freedom. They realized that if freedom takes hold it leads to equality between the sexes and getting along with the Jews.

The faith of Allah is based on tyranny against women, the murder of Jews, and the obedience of the uneducated masses. Perhaps you are correct that oppression and murder might result from forcing social change...but some ideas need suppressed and some folks could use a good killing. That much is a plain as the nose on that girl's face.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

NIKI2

Thursday, December 9, 2010 8:52 PM

CTTS:

a) Obviously, you're not one of those who could benefit from being reminded of the things "outside our veil".

b) Where do you live? I wasn't aware you were posting from another country.

c) Pleaes DON'T. Part of the reason I post stuff is that we ARE involved in Afghanistan and because it's close to my heart. Yes, we all know there are atrocities around the world, but I dont think there's anything wrong with reminding us now and again, especially about a country we have to decide how we'll deal with.

d) As to your second post: Yup.

Frem: Everything you said. In spades.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

GEEZER

Thursday, December 9, 2010 11:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
That is where self-defense and empowerment comes in.

This assumes that you can develop a pretty much region-wide system to provide self-defense under the noses of the oppressors, without significant outside help, when they have informants driven by ideology, greed, or fear just about everywhere. Unsupported liberation and ethnic or gender equality movements in closed, un-free, societies have a pretty poor track record.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CANTTAKESKY

Friday, December 10, 2010 1:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
This assumes that you can develop a pretty much region-wide system to provide self-defense under the noses of the oppressors,

I didn't say it wouldn't be tricky and require a huge amount of creativity. I only said it would be more sustainable and empowering.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

CANTTAKESKY

Friday, December 10, 2010 1:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
c) Pleaes DON'T. Part of the reason I post stuff is that we ARE involved in Afghanistan and because it's close to my heart.

Please don't ... what?

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

NIKI2

Friday, December 10, 2010 6:21 PM

Quote:
If you want, I can start new threads about all the genocides that are going on in the world right now. Won't that be cheery?

Don't that.

Where are you posting from?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

CANTTAKESKY

Friday, December 10, 2010 6:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Where are you posting from?

Peru.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

CANTTAKESKY

Friday, December 10, 2010 7:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:
CTS: If you want, I can start new threads about all the genocides that are going on in the world right now. Won't that be cheery?
Don't that.

OK, I won't.

But I am curious.

You had originally said:

Quote:
...we all too easily forget what's happening outside our own lives and our own politics.

But you say now you don't want to hear about atrocities around the world. The only reason you posted about the atrocities in Afghanistan is because it affects our lives (with our military there) and our own politics.

It seems to be a double message. On one hand you want to remember something that is happening OUTSIDE our lives and politics, but really...only as long as it is tied somehow to our lives and politics.

Maybe "outside" doesn't mean what I think it means?

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

NIKI2

Friday, December 10, 2010 8:06 PM

Damn, you told us that before...sorry, I forgot. Strangely, tho', I don't think of Peru as a "third-world country".

I probably didn't say it right, as to your second post.

By "outside our lives and our politics", I was referring to things outside our daily lives and the petty politics we usually focus on. Afghanistan affects our lives and our politics, but only in a peripheral way, it's not something we usually think about or discuss daily,and we usually don't talk or think about the country and people themselves, but more about the political and financial aspects it has on our country. Whereas atrocities around the world really don't affect our lives, our government or our politics much.

Am I being clearer about the distinction? I'm not sure, but I hope you understand what I was trying to say.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

CANTTAKESKY

Friday, December 10, 2010 9:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Whereas atrocities around the world really don't affect our lives, our government or our politics much.

I think they should.

We give more attention to the possible future climate of the planet than to the current people of the planet who are suffering right now.

If that is not a case of "I've got mine, you're on your own to get yours," I don't know what is.

My bitterness is not directed at you. Just a lifelong frustration with American myopia.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

NIKI2

Friday, December 10, 2010 10:01 PM

I agree VERY wholeheartedly. Most of us haven't the slightest grasp of how people in other countries live or what they face. "American myopia" is a good term for it...it's not even lack of education so much, because people aren't interested in being educated.

I think it should be in our consciousness too, but trying to make it so with all the atrocities and wrongs in the world would take all day, every day, unfortunately.

I support Save the Children, RAWA and several other causes of things overseas. I realize we should "take care of our own first", but as someone recently mentioned (might have been you CTTS), even our poorest citizens live in what people in other parts of the world would consider "wealth". What little I give doesn't help much, but it's better than nothing.

I also give to environmental causes, but that's just me. I DO care about this little blue marble, and believe that humans come and go, but if we fuck it up too bad, we'll all "go".

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Friday, December 10, 2010 10:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

There are other ways to help, though. First do no harm. The US should stop funding and arming groups which have a misogyny as a basic tenet. The Taliban (and the warlords) were fertilized by the USA in our never-ending quest to make the world safe for corporatism. We did, so yipee for us.

I'm glad someone mentioned that. I think it is all too easy to sit back and say 'gosh, doesn't horrible stuff happen throughout the world' and then wring our hands helplessly. The truth is that a lot of extremism, conflict, lawlessness and atrocities happen in places as a result of interference from global powers, including the US. The history of the Taliban's growth in power is inextricably linked to US involvement in that region, even to the point where there was fairly recent funding of the Taliban.

Signy's right..you should be able to base international relationships on whether countries respect human rights, shared values and so on, but more often relationships are based on economics and ideology and screw the fact that they do barbaric things.

But then it's typical of recent hypocracies...
we support freedom and human rights
(except when we want to imprison and interrogate terrorist suspects) etc etc

KPO

Friday, December 10, 2010 11:53 PM

Quote:
The history of the Taliban's growth in power is inextricably linked to US involvement in that region, even to the point where there was fairly recent funding of the Taliban.

Really? What kind of funding?

It's not personal. It's just war.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Saturday, December 11, 2010 12:09 AM

Most recently

http://www.thenation.com/article/how-us-funds-taliban

KPO

Saturday, December 11, 2010 12:12 AM

Quote:
Ultimately this is pretty much what the whole conflict is about. Why do Muslim extremists hate Americans? We never shared common interests, they made good trading partners, they liked our guns, we liked their horses...we never tried to colonize them...what set them off all of a sudden? The answer is freedom. They realized that if freedom takes hold it leads to equality between the sexes and getting along with the Jews.

I agreed with much of your post before this; however, reasons why Muslim extremists hate America:

Pre Bush:

1) Support of Israel
2) Support of Israel
3) Military bases in Muslim lands
.
.
.
4) Liberal Western culture

Post Bush:

1) Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan
2) Support of Israel
.
.
.
3) Liberal Western culture
4) Military bases in Muslim lands

From listening to terrorists' interviews, Al Qaeda propaganda videos etc., this is the view I get. They rarely express outrage at or distaste for Western 'freedoms' - not much more than China and India (other tradition-minded Asian societies).

It's not personal. It's just war.

KPO

Saturday, December 11, 2010 12:57 AM

Quote:
Most recently

http://www.thenation.com/article/how-us-funds-taliban

Hmm, that's more an argument for how the war is/was going embarrassingly badly (having to pay insurgents not to fight), than one of 'the U.S is behind the Taliban (to some extent)'. And whatever examples of failing/corrupt/self-defeating U.S policies, the case has already been made quite strongly that the US occupation improves the lives of Afghan women overall...

It's not personal. It's just war.

JAYNEZTOWN

Friday, July 14, 2023 12:00 AM

SHITHOLE COUNTRIES?

Taliban’s failures have left Afghanistan in the grip of terrorism again
https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3226438/talibans-failures
-have-left-afghanistan-grip-terrorism-again

Canadian officials have met with Taliban 13 times since Afghanistan takeover

World ‘sleepwalking into another 9/11’ as Taliban welcome al-Qaeda back to Afghanistan
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1788662/afghanistan-taliban-al-qa
eda-terrorist-attack-911