Afghan women and the Taliban - please take the time to read
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Friday, July 14, 2023 00:00
VIEWED: 9122
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Quote:When a segment of the population is horrifically destroyed as these women are, there is no self-determination there.
Originally posted by Geezer:
... or let them continue because ending them would be anathema to our ideal of self-determination?
There is no conflict of ideals for me. Self-determination is for EVERYONE, not just the oppressors. These victims did not choose to be victims. They don't have cultural values that say its ok for them to be mutilated.
Victims need to be empowered so they can say no for themselves. Military solutions, or any kind of "rescue" mission, doesn't empower. It only provides a short relief, then it's back to the same old shit by different names. In liberal terms, rescue missions are not sustainable.
Sustainable empowerment gives victims options. If they defend themselves, instead of our doing it for them, they can choose a way that is consistent with their cultural values--or change those values if they want to. Sustainable empowerment sidesteps the landmines of cultural imperialism here.
--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
There is no conflict of ideals for me. Self-determination is for EVERYONE, not just the oppressors. These victims did not choose to be victims. They don't have cultural values that say its ok for them to be mutilated.
Victims need to be empowered so they can say no for themselves. Military solutions, or any kind of "rescue" mission, doesn't empower. It only provides a short relief, then it's back to the same old shit by different names. In liberal terms, rescue missions are not sustainable.
Sustainable empowerment gives victims options. If they defend themselves, instead of our doing it for them, they can choose a way that is consistent with their cultural values--or change those values if they want to. Sustainable empowerment sidesteps the landmines of cultural imperialism here.
I'd be interested in your detailed solutions for "Sustainable empowerment" of Afghan women in Taliban-controlled areas.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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http://www.rawa.org/index.php
You could try ASKING them.
ETA: Also, RAWA alleges the Time story is fake, that the incident in question occured previous to the time frame specified, and by the husband - unfortunately *neither* version of the story can seemingly be confirmed; not that it matters cause it's a damn unacceptable tragedy either way.
-F
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Niki2 wake up to the way the world is it's ancient. It always has been. The movie Taken. That's not bull. I seen that stuff back in the mid 80s in Naples Italy. Child prostitutes in Istanbul. This is the way the world really is. The US Army keeps the animals out. Bye the way don't lecture me I'll be over there in a week so cut me some slack. I am wanna of the good guys.
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Quote:LOL You'd think that would be obvious, wouldn't it?
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
You could try ASKING them.
I just looked at their Amazon wishlist
http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/1FQ7ZTOVB3XI3
It is full of cameras and A/V equipment. This appears to support DT's position that cameras are the new guns.
--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
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Quote:In my view, the only way empower a group of people sustainably consists of 4 steps:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I'd be interested in your detailed solutions for "Sustainable empowerment" of Afghan women in Taliban-controlled areas.
1. Emigrate and be a permanent part of their community.
2. Investigate the real story. While there, you can better understand the nuances of the conflicts, identify major obstacles, and respect local values.
3. Come up with creative solutions. You can do it (as opposed to them) usually because being a newbie allows you to think outside the box. Immigration brings that kind of strength, where you are able to combine the best of two worlds and form hybrid cultures.
4. Implement and experience the solutions. While thinking outside the box, you've moved inside the box at the same time. So whatever you are suggesting for them applies to you too. That is, there is no more "them." Whatever solution you propose applies to "us."
Creative solutions are going to be different for different parts and populations of the world.
I have one detailed plan for sustainable empowerment in one part of Africa. I can't give the details because part of the plan requires some anonymity. But here is a general overview.
1. There are tribes whose members (including women and children) are never messed with. They already have a self-defense infrastructure in place.
2. Through diplomatic and economic channels, become a part of those communities' protective circles. Form a defensive alliance with them.
3. Start adopting mutilated, outcast women into your own community. Through the alliance, they are also now connected to the tribal communities no one ever messes with.
4. As part of the alliance, these women have to learn a new mentality and skills of self-defense.
5. As the community grows, these mentalities and skills will gradually spread to other not-yet victimized women and tribes, who will then be ready to defend themselves.
----
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.
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At lot of it boils down to basic mutual self-defense. If society and government are hostile to women, then women have to get together as communities for self-defense and economic empowerment.
There are other ways to help, though. First do no harm. The US should stop funding and arming groups which have a misogyny as a basic tenet. The Taliban (and the warlords) were fertilized by the USA in our never-ending quest to make the world safe for corporatism. We did, so yipee for us.
Second, use trade as an inducement to change. If we could get out of those stupid so-called "free trade" agreements, or (better yet) convert those agreements to impose tariffs on nations without UN-approved elections, and with low literacy rates and legal inequities, then the overlords of those societies (who typically skim trade and aid) will see a pocketbook benefit to improving life in their nations.
But those make too much sense, and they ding the pocketbooks of the military industrial complex and the corporations which get cheap commodities and labor from slave-like conditions, so of course that will never happen.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
http://www.rawa.org/index.php
You could try ASKING them.
Unfortunately, their list of successes is pretty small. They don't seem to be in a position to turn, or even stem, the tide.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
In my view, the only way empower a group of people sustainably consists of 4 steps:
1. Emigrate and be a permanent part of their community.
2. Investigate the real story. While there, you can better understand the nuances of the conflicts, identify major obstacles, and respect local values.
3. Come up with creative solutions. You can do it (as opposed to them) usually because being a newbie allows you to think outside the box. Immigration brings that kind of strength, where you are able to combine the best of two worlds and form hybrid cultures.
4. Implement and experience the solutions. While thinking outside the box, you've moved inside the box at the same time. So whatever you are suggesting for them applies to you too. That is, there is no more "them." Whatever solution you propose applies to "us."
This might work if, at some point, the Taliban or some other fundamentalist male-domination outfit didn't decide you were messing with their prerogatives and put you down, along with anyone you'd 'contaminated' with your ideas. These guys don't really want an enlightenment or strength for the women - or pretty much anyone who's not them - in their world. It's been shown pretty conclusively that they'll use just about any means to keep things the way they like them.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Second, use trade as an inducement to change. If we could get out of those stupid so-called "free trade" agreements, or (better yet) convert those agreements to impose tariffs on nations without UN-approved elections, and with low literacy rates and legal inequities, then the overlords of those societies (who typically skim trade and aid) will see a pocketbook benefit to improving life in their nations.
And when we (the U.S.) end trade with these bad actors, China steps right in and says, "We don't care what you do to your people. We just want the money and natural resources."
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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