Afghan women and the Taliban - please take the time to read
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Friday, July 14, 2023 00:00
VIEWED: 9122
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Quote:That is where self-defense and empowerment comes in.
Originally posted by Geezer:
This might work if, at some point, the Taliban or some other fundamentalist male-domination outfit didn't decide you were messing with their prerogatives and put you down, along with anyone you'd 'contaminated' with your ideas.
The difference is, we victims would be defending ourselves and fighting for ourselves. The conventional military solution has temporary rescuers come in to defend us, then leave, putting us right back where we started, if not worse.
--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
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CTTS, I disagree:Quote:
That’s not what I saw happening in Afghanistan. While we were there, given just the tiny inch of the sewing lessons, with sewing machines and patterns provided by American companies, and yes, the BIG inch given by a Shah who wanted women liberated, they made enormous strides in just a couple of years. Women were being allowed to educate, held jobs, were doctors, in government, etc. Even while the Russians were there, women got better treatment than now on the whole. Even AFTER the Russians—-it wasn’t until the Taliban came to power that things reversed themselves, to the point where they are now.
to stand up for themselves, or the protectors/rescuers will have to be there forever.
Given WE had a hand in what happened after Russia left (even I getting RID of Russia), and our ignoring the situation let the Taliban come back into power, do we owe them anything? Yeah, I know all the good and bad; we haven’t done it right, Karzai’s a lousy puppet and corrupt, WE’re corrupt, there’s too much collusion with the drug dealers, etc., etc. On the other hand, women are taking charge, standing up for themselves, making strides again with us there now. So I understand the arguments against us staying; it’s not philosophical for me, I’m only offering information; I’m not wise enough to say whether we owe them to stay or have fulfilled our responsibility for what we had a hand in starting and should go, or what will happen when we go...and we will. That’s all. How could I possibly argue one side or the other, when I’m not solid myself on whether we should stay or go, given the situation?
What we’ve done IS empowering them...Frem will no doubt come along and talk about that. It’s not just that we came in and made war, it’s that our protection has gone a long ways toward allowing them to achieve some power. I just don’t know if it’s sustainable, if it’s “enough” yet, or if it will ever be enough. I agree with Geezer; aside from what we’re doing now, I too would like to hear what solutions you could suggest for any other form of empowerment.
Ooops, there IS Frem...I knew you’d pop in eventually with info on RAWA. The article DOES say the husband did it, along with the brother-in-law, so I don’t see any discrepancy there. Obviously I can’t know if the story is true or not, I can only look to reporters and others to tell us. I just put it out there. If people bother to go to the link, as Geezer did (thank you Geezer, for doing so), just the headlines show you the insanity of the situation...corruption, Iranian/Saudi/Al Qaeda involvement, and so many more things. It’s an incredibly complex situation, with no one---or even “several” solutions.
Catpirate, you’re going to Afghanistan? Jezus, I’m sorry. You don’t get it; as I said, I’m not arguing for us staying, I put information out there to hopefully help us understand. I’ve never argued 100% for our staying, I know the problems, I know the arguments on both sides. I’m in the middle, because BOTH arguments are good and both are bad, to me. Don’t make me the one not cutting you—-or anyone ELSE---slack. I’m not neutral on this, I’m stuck with one foot on each side. Given my love for the country, I will always try to offer things to further educate people and hopefully be a balance to us seeing things through the veil of living in America. I’m called a “terrorist sympathizer” because I try to do the same about Islam and Muslims. Attempting to bring perspective and reminders of the greys doesn’t make ME the bad guy, either.
The more we understand, the better chance we have of making good decisions, of living less in the black and white. That’s why I put up some of the things I do, especially about Afghanistan, Islam, Muslims, etc.
Sig, yes, I liked your ideaQuote:
Second, use trade as an inducement to change. If we could get out of those stupid so-called "free trade" agreements, or (better yet) convert those agreements to impose tariffs on nations without UN-approved electio
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Quote:I grew up in third world countries, military dictatorships, and police states. I live in a third world country now. I think about the "wider horizons" all the time, maybe the way Frem thinks about kids. I don't forget.
Originally posted by Niki2:
...we all too easily forget what's happening outside our own lives and our own politics.
If you want, I can start new threads about all the genocides that are going on in the world right now. Won't that be cheery?
Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
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Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.
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This is for you, Niki.
Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.
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Well, of course they're struggling - we're supporting the Northern Alliance Warlords and these days even kissing Taliban ass... in fact I'm a little surprised the State Dept hasn't labelled RAWA as a terrorist organization as a sop to Kharazis goons...
And we DID bomb a couple of their facilities when supposedy-trusted contacts (who in their right fuckin mind would trust Kharazi and his boys, I ask you ?!) pointed them out as "terrorist training camps" and we didn't bother to verify any damn thing before sending in the ordinance.
There's also that they are anti-violence to a degree that makes me grind my teeth, but factually there's just not ENOUGH of them, and getting into a shooting war with not only the fundies, but the goddamn US Military which'd back them up would result in nothing more than getting them all dead, so what the hell would you have us do ?
On top of that, there's a certain naive blindness there, many of em think if they can just get their message out far enough, wide enough, to the right people... thing is, the world KNOWS, they just don't give a fuck, which is a whole different *problem*, but try getting that across a language barrier when their damn translators keep winding up "collateral damage" of american bombs - especially when none of em WANTS to believe that.
Also, although not currently listed on their wish list, cause someone got them sufficient stocks for the near future - they can also use water testing and purification equipment, since the damn Talitubbies have taken to poisoning the water supplies of their schools and safehouses.
Look, I'd be *more* than happy to run guns to em if I thought it would do any damn good, but there's just not enough of em - while they shy away from admitting it, they take a pretty brutal amount of casualties as it is, and as of late, while we don't have solid proof, it's suspected that US Intel Assets have been helping the Kharazi regime locate and crush their action cells, which adds to the potential of a shooting war with the US Military if they did start putting lead in the air - not helping the damn fundamentalists wreck em would be a damn good start if we really wanted to help these folk.
The second thing would be to offer some protection so that the rescued and educated children have some chance to grow up, and have an impact on the society, which very few of them actually do since those ideas are unwelcome and unwanted by the dicks we're helping hold the country in an iron fist.
Or we could just, yanno... LEAVE, and let matters take their course - which would result in the corrupt puppet regime being squished like a bug by one or more of the fundamentalist factions within the year, but without external support would also soon fall to infighting which we could exploit the hell out of by quietly supporting RAWA or even use as a humanitarian excuse to get some UN support and protection for em.
In short, first things first, WE need to stop backing the wrong side.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Social pressure is the only way to affect that kind of change without becoming oppressors and murderers ourselves.
Social pressure only works in open societies. Ghandi and the Indian liberation is a great example. Britain's open society allowed social change to be effected. Do you really think India would have been freed without much violence if they'd been dealing with Nazis instead of Brits?
Another good example is the American Civil War. I agree that social pressure would likely have ended slavery...but war ended it as well. Would you have said to a slave 'you must remain a slave because I'm not willing to fight for your freedom?'
Violence is not always the answer. But sometimes it is the answer. Guy wants to cut off a woman's nose, she's got a right to kill him and she's got a right to some help if he tries to do it to her. Does not matter if she live next door or in Afganistan.
Ultimately this is pretty much what the whole conflict is about. Why do Muslim extremists hate Americans? We never shared common interests, they made good trading partners, they liked our guns, we liked their horses...we never tried to colonize them...what set them off all of a sudden? The answer is freedom. They realized that if freedom takes hold it leads to equality between the sexes and getting along with the Jews.
The faith of Allah is based on tyranny against women, the murder of Jews, and the obedience of the uneducated masses. Perhaps you are correct that oppression and murder might result from forcing social change...but some ideas need suppressed and some folks could use a good killing. That much is a plain as the nose on that girl's face.
H
"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.
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CTTS:
a) Obviously, you're not one of those who could benefit from being reminded of the things "outside our veil".
b) Where do you live? I wasn't aware you were posting from another country.
c) Pleaes DON'T. Part of the reason I post stuff is that we ARE involved in Afghanistan and because it's close to my heart. Yes, we all know there are atrocities around the world, but I dont think there's anything wrong with reminding us now and again, especially about a country we have to decide how we'll deal with.
d) As to your second post: Yup.
Frem: Everything you said. In spades.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off 
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
That is where self-defense and empowerment comes in.
This assumes that you can develop a pretty much region-wide system to provide self-defense under the noses of the oppressors, without significant outside help, when they have informants driven by ideology, greed, or fear just about everywhere. Unsupported liberation and ethnic or gender equality movements in closed, un-free, societies have a pretty poor track record.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:I didn't say it wouldn't be tricky and require a huge amount of creativity. I only said it would be more sustainable and empowering.
Originally posted by Geezer:
This assumes that you can develop a pretty much region-wide system to provide self-defense under the noses of the oppressors,
Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
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Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.
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Quote:Please don't ... what?
Originally posted by Niki2:
c) Pleaes DON'T. Part of the reason I post stuff is that we ARE involved in Afghanistan and because it's close to my heart.
Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.
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