Another 'Religion of Peace' moment, brought to you by.....yep, ISLAM!
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 12, 2025 15:05
VIEWED: 23038
PAGE 2 of 3
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
The city council already voted unanimously to allow it. This issue was over as far as the locals were concerned, a year ago.
Not when they are not representing the will of the locals. Put it to referendum in the city. End of story.
In other words, when you don't like the outcome of the game, change the rules.
No. Elect people that represent and vote the will of the people. When the overwhelming majority are against something local it should be honored. Don't get me wrong I have my reservations about this whole debate. I believe in property rights. And I understand that we can't legislate good behavior and wisdom. People are free to do dumb shit. This mosque at this time in this spot is dumb. I also believe there is something a bit sinister about their reluctance to build it elsewhere knowing the pain it is causing so many. Especially considering the whole bridge building thing. Just my hunch.
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:Quote:
You've attributed #2 with the Christians. "It aims for world conquest". Really? In fairness, I have to ask are you talking about the crusades hundreds of years ago when using the word conquest? I'm sure that's what you meant, seeing you are my soulmate,
No, though I guess I could've been less controversial with my choice of words. Islam and Christianity both have world missions - the aim of spreading themselves to every corner of the world. Not every religion does. The difference with christianity I think is that it isn't inherently political like Islam, so when it talks about 'onward christian soldiers, marching as to war', it's talking about spiritual conquest of the world, not physical/political.
Another thing, I don't think Islam has a doctrine of free will - another thing that might make it inherently more controlling over the individual.Quote:
I would also ask you to retract your statement about scale and balance.What don't you like about the scales statement?
It's not personal. It's just war.
I see Christians as being noble in their desire to spread the greatness of their god(again as silly as that is). I see one trying to demand acceptance of their god under the threat of beheading and the other trying to guide you to god with really annoying pamphlets and tactless unannounced home visits by strange young adults in black ties and smiles....It's all in the scale KPO.
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Right on, Mike.
Ron Paul makes me think the founding fathers would have supported a community center near ground zero.
No wonder the tea parties and the conservatives hate him so much.Quote:
I agree, Anthony. I don’t LIKE it, because I think there is more of a useful role government can play, and I would have disagreed with Ron Paul on a number of other things, but I’m willing to compromise on some of them, and it would be an improvement over what we’ve GOT!
The ONLY role of government in regards to this Community Center is to get out of its way. It's not the place of government or government officials to impede such a project, or to incite public furor about it. The rights to build are not in question, and the question of rights is government's primary purpose.
I also agree the founding fathers might not have been all that tolerant...even tho’ they came to get away from religious tolerance, I didn’t see a lot of evidence of it in our early history. Nonetheless, I think there’s a strong possibility they’d have viewed it as the COMMUNITY CENTER it’s intended, rather than gotten all head up about a prayer room within a community center!
Shiny, whatever our individual beliefs on abortion, I agree with everything else you said, ESPECIALLY:Quote:
and
Extremists exist in every religion, since man first walked upright. Muslims, Christians and Roman Catholics do not have the market cornered. Quote:
Mike, you’re right; this issue was decided back in December, and as we keep reminding people, Fox News, Ingrahm and Beck all approved BACK THEN. It’s a non-issue-created-issue by one of the most extreme anti-Islamists around, Geller. Until she got ahold of it, nobody gave a damn.
It is man and the thirst for power and control that feeds that extremism.
Anthony: Quote:
Damned straight and right on. Imagine the furor that would have resulted if it were opposed as what it WAS, a planned Community Center with a room for prayer, rather than what it’s been made out to be!
Not only that, but had they *wanted* to object, they'd have been forced to find some reason other than the religious affiliation
Mincing, yes, the scales don’t equate TODAY. But if you want to look at history, they do. Again: we’ve only been here 200 years, so saying “what’s now and what affects us is ALL” is a very short-sighted point of view. Another century, it was/will be another race, religion, nationality, whatever.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off 
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Quote:
Mike, you’re right; this issue was decided back in December, and as we keep reminding people, Fox News, Ingrahm and Beck all approved BACK THEN. It’s a non-issue-created-issue by one of the most extreme anti-Islamists around, Geller. Until she got ahold of it, nobody gave a damn.
Exactly, NOBODY gave a damn, INCLUDING the locals, who were invited to the council meeting, which was open to the public, and voiced no concerns. In fact, so little concern was raised AT THE LOCAL LEVEL that the approval of the council was unanimous, with not one single "No" vote.
This WAS decided at the local level, by the locals. Now, after the fact (nearly a YEAR after the fact), some small-minded bigots have decided that they don't like what was decided, so they want to get people worked up and call for a fresh vote on what's already been decided.
AURaptor's Greatest Hits:
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.
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Quote:If Islam doesn't = terrorist, then what in god's name is the problem with an Islamic Center ANYWHERE? And Pizmo, you may have some terribly eccentric and personal reason for opposing this building, but if you look at Kaneman's "face of the GOP" the reason is clear as summer rain: Islam = terrorist.
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Do you think all opposition to it is based on people thinking Islam=Terrorists?
I'm also curious about the message this sends to the world... certainly it's many messages depending on what part of the world. Some say it shows our strength and our faith in our constitution and Freedom and The American Way, but how would it play in China? France? Taliban? I wonder how Islamic extremists would view the mosque/C-Center going up there?
I'm sorry, but the grief argument carries no wait in this context. No one's grief gives them the right to hold people hostage or deny people their fundamental rights. The local government, the people of NYC have already signed off on this.
And there is grave, grave danger in fetishizing "grief," enshrining it and turning it into a permanent justification for hatred which is EXACTLY what the neo-cons want.
Why hasn't ANYTHING been built at ground zero, leaving this gaping wound in NYC, festering with all our nation's vengeful madness, instead of allowing the wound to heal?
And the message it sends if we allow them to build the Community Center? I would say anything but letting them go ahead with the building paints us as insane, but that's just how I see it. You wanna control "the message," good luck. In this life, we have to do the right thing, and let the world draw its own conclusions. Why should we continue to measure our own actions by the actions of madmen? Let some cave-dwellers determine public policy?
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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KPO, I agree with some of what you wrote and disagree with some. I definitely agree with the fallacy of trying to balance out the scales and find a “winner”. That’s the perspective I’ve been trying to bring to the discussion.
I view Islam differently, however:Quote:
I think Christianity has #3—we had the original Crusades, and if you recall, Bush called it a Crusade more than once. If you want to argue just New Testament, I think THAT is a fallacy; it says that because Christianity “revised” its tenants, that absolves it of previous tenants. Doesn’t work for me. I believe I pointed out a few times in Christian history where they wiped out entire populations, which comes close enough to “crusade” for me.
1) It's political in nature (christianity is much more apolitical)
2) It aims for world conquest (so does christianity, but not in a political way as much)
3) It has a doctrine of holy war (no such doctrine in new testament christianity)
Also, I don’t see Islam as “political in nature”. While I accept that it has far less secularism at this time, I think Christianity has been quite political in the past, and certainly has it’s political aspects even today. “In nature” is something I think is open to debate.Quote:
I don’t think anyone is saying “to the same extent”. Historically one or the other has done so to a greater or lesser degree; certainly CURRENTLY Islam gets the prize for that, but to me it’s just the same as those scales; taking all of history into account, all religions HAVE inspired humans to evil at one time or another. How that fits on scales I don’t think we can ever determine.
People that believe all religions inspire humans to evil to the same extent (including Buddhism?), how do you explain this idea?
And I don’t think it’s the religion that inspires humans to evil, rather to me it’s those in AUTHORITY in each religion who do so, humans deciding what to accent to gain their own agenda, even if that agenda is subconscious to them and they think they are doing right. Definitely “god on our side” is a big baddie and excuses all kinds of horrible things, but ALL religions, in their purest form, push peace, tolerance and equality.
Cav, I think you gave us a very eloquent thesis on religions and I think theocracy IS the major difficulty both we have in tolerating Muslim theocracies and they have tolerating democracy. I don’t think anyone’s touched on it in that way, and it’s a really good point.Quote:
Exactly what I’ve been trying to say for a while; the extremists of Islam are WINNING by our intolerance and fear endangering the very foundation of our moral values. The more we fear and hate them, the more we show to the world that who we say we are is not WHAT we are, and we concede to the extremists what they claim about us. They win by default because we failed OURSELVES.
But our values are being eroded by this continued despicable opposition to it.
Traveler, beautifully said on the same point:Quote:
How on EARTH do we get the American people to SEE THIS?!\
We lose our freedom by throwing it away with hate and bigotry. Hate is the religion we need to fight. Some may give it a formal name, but that is just a cover. The god that destroyed the Twin Towers was hate, power, or greed; the Islam faith had nothing to do with it.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off
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For the record, I do not advocate arithmetic and scale-balancing as a method for determining evil, though I do demand that ya'll wish in one hand and shit in the other. This math and weight is, a serviceable metaphor in answer to the worthless proposition that "extremists come from ALL faiths!"
There are extremists of all faiths, yes, and so what? There is no arguing that while Islam has no monopoly on violent extremists, it currently has the best brand. This popular brand of violent extremism is not inconsistent with Islamic theology, or history; it is however, with our happy pluralistic notions of how the world out to work. And that stings.
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Hello,
Don't forget the Pirates. I don't consider them to be in the same category as 'violent extremists' because they're out to steal stuff. And they're dashing. I saw a movie about it.
So: Islam. The most violent extremists AND the most Pirates.
If I join the local mosque, do you think they'll give me a boat?
--Anthony
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You're not dark enough; the salient point about Somalian pirates isn't that they're Muslim, but rather....African.
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I mean, people would assume that you were a hostage, even if you had a turban, an eye patch, and a hook for a hand. And they would try to free you, even if you came at them with a cutlass.
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Hello,
Cripes. I never considered that being from an impovrished region filled with crushing despair and treated with wholesale disregard might contribute to something like Piracy.
So, by joining Islam, I only increase the statistical probability of becoming a terrorist? Bummer.
Is there any religion that increases my statistical probability of Captaining a Pirate ship? I'm willing to convert.
--Anthony
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Quote:Oh, hells yes it is! I mean the history--all three of the "big books" can be twisted any which-a-way to support whatever you're selling, but historically, this brand of Islamism is quite new.
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
This popular brand of violent extremism is not inconsistent with Islamic theology, or history.
Look, terrorism is a political and economic phenomenon. If people have a baseline faith in their own political power and the economic power to better themselves, and they're not sociopaths, they do not support or participate in terrorism. And when I say "political power" I'm not talking about voting booths, I'm talking about the ability to expect that some foreign entity won't come along and flatten your entire country.
That kind of unequal political power, we simply don't understand in America. Our nation's continent-spanning existence depends on it. Unequal warfare is our stock in trade--so much so that we're shocked, shocked I say, when any war we engage in isn't over in two weeks.
Well, the natives have graduated from bows and arrows to kalashnikovs and IED's. Right now, a whole lot of people in the world, most of 'em Muslim, live in fear that the United States of America just might roll into their countries and take everything away from them. I'm not talking about the cave-dwelling psychopaths or the corrupt government of Iran, I'm talking about the "silent majority" of Muslim people in the Middle East. Jeebus, you look at the way neo-cons have been able to gin up hatred in this country with nothing but a building permit to fuel the fire, how much do you think the Islamist propagandists can get out of two fantastically destructive wars of aggression? Without the last 100 years of Western political dominance and the last 50 years of intensive CIA style puppetmastery and adventurism, the Islamist movement of today would be about as pervasive as Tim McVeighism is: limited to a few psychopaths in a generation.
Oh well.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Shiny, that was so beautiful, I can only agree with every word. “God on our side” is the most dangerous propaganda and manipulation known to man, and it’s nice to see someone who recognizes the politics of religion in our country, to which others don’t seem to give much weight. As a buddhist, I’m extremely aware of the religiosity of our politics, and it has dismayed me for the past eight years deeply, and continues to do so. I won’t rant on it; you covered it far too well and far to civilly already.Quote:
Right on the mark.
It is used to enslave and control those who submit without question.
And then there comes Raptor, preaching the party line and ignoring everything of all those excellent posts before him:Quote:
No, Raptor, few actually “know” it...many, like you, have swallowed the doctrine whole cloth, but those who THINK, those who question the fear and intolerance being spouted currently, know exactly the opposite. They know it isn’t a “mosque” at all, they know Ground Zero isn’t some “holy ground” or there wouldn’t be betting parlors and sex clubs even CLOSER than the proposed COMMUNITY CENTER, and they know it is manipulation, not “right” which is behind this whole non-issue. To make flat statements like that ignores all reality, all perspective, and all common sense.
Building a mosque on the site of ground zero is wrong. Everyone knows it, at their core.
Man, this is one damned impressive thread. Leaving out the blind followers, I’m reading such eloquent points backed up with such reason and logic and recognition of history and the dangers of religion, I’m in awe of you guys. Byte, you too gave us such a wonderful view of reality.Quote:
You’re absolutely right. Taking out the historical religious figures who stoked their followers for political/power reasons of their OWN (like popes throughout history, good old Henry, etc.), what you have are religions USED by politicians and power mongers to fulfill and agenda and gain power, and push people into acts that, if they were thinking for themselves and sane, they wouldn’t do.
who I think did the pushing, and here's a hint, it wasn't their Imams or Ayatollahs or their preachersQuote:
Very, very well said...I liked the comparison to Columbine; it never occurred to me, but it’s right on. Similar mentality. Sense of powerlessness combined with hatred and fear, and lack of self-control. We have a phrase which has come into popular use: “Acting out”.
It's not about the religion for them, not really, it's about rage and hatred for the world and justifications and wanting to be admired or feared and to take what they want.
Pizmo, I think, again, that it is wrong to compare us to the rest of the world. Do we want to say that because China wouldn’t tolerate this or that, it’s okay that we don’t? Seriously? Remember Tiananmen Square? Or ANYTHING the Taliban believes? Does it matter what the rest of the world thinks of us if we know we are doing the right thing, the thing that embodies what our country is built upon? To me, it doesn’t.
No, Kane, he doesn’t have to go back to the Crusades to find evidence of Christianity’s desire for world domination. He only has to glance at Bush, who called the “war on terror” a “crusade” (and tho’ you won’t admit it, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan had their aspects of Christian conquest). Try our own military, CURRENTLY:Quote:
For US Army soldiers entering basic training at Fort Jackson Army base in Columbia, South Carolina, accepting Jesus Christ as their personal savior appears to be as much a part of the nine-week regimen as the vigorous physical and mental exercises the troops must endure.
That's the message directed at Fort Jackson soldiers, some of whom appear in photographs in government issued fatigues, holding rifles in one hand, and Bibles in their other hand.
Frank Bussey, director of Military Ministry at Fort Jackson, has been telling soldiers at Fort Jackson that "government authorities, police and the mili
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Let the Muslims build their Islamist Terror Mosque and Jihadist Recruitment Center right in the center of Ground Zero if they want. In the lobby they can showcase a solid gold statue of Osama Bin Laden laughing and giving the thumbs-up gesture. And then top it off with a 24/7 entertainment deck, complete with 72 virgins dancing around a camel-juice bar in silk pajamas. I'd rather have that than have Katie Couric and her Liberal pals scolding me for being an un-enlightened, fear-mongering intolerant bigot.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:Quote:Oh, hells yes it is! I mean the history--all three of the "big books" can be twisted any which-a-way to support whatever you're selling, but historically, this brand of Islamism is quite new.
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
This popular brand of violent extremism is not inconsistent with Islamic theology, or history.
I admit that I am not a historian. Please distinguish this brand of Islam, which is preoccupied with Holy war and a global Caliphate, from the type of Islam practiced by the Ottomans. Or those who invaded the Indian subcontinent. There are novel twists, no doubt, but nothing especially groundbreaking about killing the infidel and taking his shit because god wants you to.
Also, what of it it if any holy text can be twisted? What matters is the twisting, not the potential.
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Ah, wittle River is getting cranky.... Got nothing but absurd straw men to toss out there.
Sucks when people won't fall in line with your fear and hatred, huh? Poor kid. How sad.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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"Anthony, I think where your final argument fails is.."
Hello Niki,
I think my arguments are chronically harmed by my inability to convey faceitiousness.
On the bright side, I think this increases my likelihood of becoming a Pirate.
If I stand up and say, "I'm a Pirate, Arrgh," everyone will believe me.
--Anthony
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Hello,
My wife informs me that since my true intentions are often invisible, I might make a better Ninja than a Pirate.
But I'm not sure what noise you make to represent a Ninja. "Whoosh?"
--Anthony
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Hey Anthony,
I believe the church of the flying spaghetti monster considers pirates to be divine beings and global warming to be directly responsible for their lack of numbers.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Ah, wittle River is getting cranky.... Got nothing but absurd straw men to toss out there.
Sucks when people won't fall in line with your fear and hatred, huh? Poor kid. How sad.
Doesn't suck at all buddy. Actually, feels pretty good knowing that I'm already IN line with the vast majority of Americans on this, 68% I believe. Only 26% think like you do. Now that MUST suck for you. So sorry
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"Let the Muslims build their Islamist Terror Mosque and Jihadist Recruitment Center right in the center of Ground Zero if they want. In the lobby they can showcase a solid gold statue of Osama Bin Laden laughing and giving the thumbs-up gesture. And then top it off with a 24/7 entertainment deck, complete with 72 virgins dancing around a camel-juice bar in silk pajamas."
Hello,
That image is just so full of Win that if they did that, I might go there just to see it.
I also wish that all Islamic Terror Mosques and Jihadist Recruitment Centers had a big neon sign saying, "GET YOUR TERROR HERE! DISCOUNT ON BEHEADINGS! 1/2 OFF!"
--Anthony
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Ninja's are better anyway, pirate magic only works on water.
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Kane, as regarding “the will of the people”, see my above statement. The will of the people at any given time is not necessarily the right thing to do. In this case, it’s not the “will of the people” which is causing the problem, it is the will of the people INFLUENCING the feelings of Americans. It is the will of the people who are seeking power who are fostering hate, fear and intolerance, manipulating the population into visceral feelings they are experiencing RIGHT NOW, as opposed to over the long haul.
Were I one of those planning the COMMUNITY CENTER (IT IS NOT A MOSQUE), you betcha I would resist LIKE HELL being told, in a country which prides itself on equality and law, that I couldn’t build something which I know would benefit people of all faiths in a place where betting parlors and sex clubs are perfectly acceptable. It is the epitome of intolerance and prejudice, and I would fight for my rights like any other citizen.Quote:
If you see the historical actions of Christians in “spreading” the word of THEIR god in the ways in which they have as “noble”, I think you need to take the time to read some of the things offered on the history of Christianity, which I doubt you will. Not only that, but the “spreading of that word” RIGHT NOW isn’t very noble—if you bother to read the article I put up about the “Christian” indoctrination of our military.
I see Christians as being noble in their desire to spread the greatness of their god.
Oh, my, guys, I’m reading such wonderful, THINKING stuff, it knocks my socks off. I knew this place was filled with people who thought for themselves and could put things in perspective, but this thread makes me so DAMNED proud!Quote:
In this life, we have to do the right thing, and let the world draw its own conclusions. Why should we continue to measure our own actions by the actions of madmen? Let some cave-dwellers determine public policy?Quote:
Wonderful, Cav. So is
In this life, we have to do the right thing, and let the world draw its own conclusions. Why should we continue to measure our own actions by the actions of madmen? Let some cave-dwellers determine public policy?Quote:
That one BITES, but “we” don’t want to be reminded of it—gawd, it might make us consider that our actions around the world contributed to 9/11, as some REPUBLICAN politicians have stated in the past!
That kind of unequal political power, we simply don't understand in America. Our nation's continent-spanning existence depends on it. Unequal warfare is our stock in trade--so much so that we're shocked, shocked I say, when any war we engage in isn't over in two weeks.Quote:
Oh, heavens, they couldn’t actually THINK that, could they? That we would invade a sovereign nation, depose its leaders, and put our own form of government in power? Nah, we’re the Great and Mighty America, we respect all nations...and all religions!
Right now, a whole lot of people in the world, most of 'em Muslim, live in fear that the United States of America just might roll into their countries and take everything away from them.
Ooops, sorry, sliding into cynicism there...
Again, I think this discussion is amazing, and I wish it were being had all across America. I am going to save the whole damned thread, I’m so impressed. If you re-read it, ignoring the various RWA “talking points” which reflect an inability to do more than follow the leader, you will see one of the things that makes me PROUD to be an American! You guys give me hope.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off
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Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Ah, wittle River is getting cranky.... Got nothing but absurd straw men to toss out there.
Sucks when people won't fall in line with your fear and hatred, huh? Poor kid. How sad.
Doesn't suck at all buddy. Actually, feels pretty good knowing that I'm already IN line with the vast majority of Americans on this, 68% I believe. Only 26% think like you do. Now that MUST suck for you. So sorry
No, I feel quite content not being a knuckle-dragging moron who's afraid of them scary Muslims. You are a tool, I am honored to be nothing like you.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Let the Muslims build their Islamist Terror Mosque and Jihadist Recruitment Center right in the center of Ground Zero if they want. In the lobby they can showcase a solid gold statue of Osama Bin Laden laughing and giving the thumbs-up gesture. And then top it off with a 24/7 entertainment deck, complete with 72 virgins dancing around a camel-juice bar in silk pajamas."
Hello,
That image is just so full of Win that if they did that, I might go there just to see it.
I also wish that all Islamic Terror Mosques and Jihadist Recruitment Centers had a big neon sign saying, "GET YOUR TERROR HERE! DISCOUNT ON BEHEADINGS! 1/2 OFF!"
--Anthony
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Now you're gettin' it! No need for any pretenses here, right Anthony? Just give 'em what they really want, and then maybe they'll like us.
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Quote:More mincing, less clodhopping, please. We all have wonderfully colorful and empire-building pasts to brag about, don't we? I thought the past didn't count in this discussion.
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
I admit that I am not a historian. Please distinguish this brand of Islam, which is preoccupied with Holy war and a global Caliphate, from the type of Islam practiced by the Ottomans. Or those who invaded the Indian subcontinent. There are novel twists, no doubt, but nothing especially groundbreaking about killing the infidel and taking his shit because god wants you to.
Also, what of it it if any holy text can be twisted? What matters is the twisting, not the potential.
The modern Islamists invoke "infidel" and "conversion by the sword" exactly the way Mussolini invoked SPQR and Hitler invoked, oh well, Wagner--but without anything resembling the firepower to back that insanity up--to give the psychopathological hate screed du jour the appearance of a pedigree. Glad to see the Mince is buying right in.
I'm still waiting on that list of dominoes in Islam's master plan to rule the world.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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"You are a tool, I am honored to be nothing like you."
Hello Story,
When you insult someone, the Terrorists win.
--Anthony
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Ah, wittle River is getting cranky.... Got nothing but absurd straw men to toss out there.
Sucks when people won't fall in line with your fear and hatred, huh? Poor kid. How sad.
Doesn't suck at all buddy. Actually, feels pretty good knowing that I'm already IN line with the vast majority of Americans on this, 68% I believe. Only 26% think like you do. Now that MUST suck for you. So sorry
No, I feel quite content not being a knuckle-dragging moron who's afraid of them scary Muslims. You are a tool, I am honored to be nothing like you.
What kind of tool would that be friend, hmmm? Given a choice, I'd like to be a power saw. And by the way, I don't drag my knuckles that much anymore. I've hired a posture coach, and the results are amazin'!
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:Quote:More mincing, less clodhopping, please. We all have wonderfully colorful and empire-building pasts to brag about, don't we? I thought the past didn't count in this discussion.
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
I admit that I am not a historian. Please distinguish this brand of Islam, which is preoccupied with Holy war and a global Caliphate, from the type of Islam practiced by the Ottomans. Or those who invaded the Indian subcontinent. There are novel twists, no doubt, but nothing especially groundbreaking about killing the infidel and taking his shit because god wants you to.
Also, what of it it if any holy text can be twisted? What matters is the twisting, not the potential.
The modern Islamists invoke "infidel" and "conversion by the sword" exactly the way Mussolini invoked SPQR and Hitler invoked, oh well, Wagner--but without anything resembling the firepower to back that insanity up--to give the psychopathological hate screed du jour the appearance of a pedigree. Glad to see the Mince is buying right in.
I'm still waiting on that list of dominoes in Islams master plan to rule the world.
B]
I've never dismissed the past outright, nor argued that the free world is going to fall to Islam, and I am no more buying into hate than I am your argument that Islamic extremism ought to be divorced from Islam. Actually, I don't think you've made that argument, but you've made ascribing words to others seem so fun, I thought I'd try it.
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"Now you're gettin' it! No need for any pretenses here, right Anthony?"
Hello,
Indeed.
The U.S. Military and Oil Companies can get a joint slogan like, 'WE WILL F*CK YOU AND TAKE YOUR STUFF.'
The Republicans can hold up signs saying, 'WE LOVE FREEDOM UNTIL IT MAKES US UNCOMFORTABLE.'
The Muslims can hold up signs saying, 'WE DON'T SPEAK UP ENOUGH WHEN PEOPLE MURDER IN THE NAME OF OUR GOD.'
The Catholics can hold up signs saying, 'WE REMEMBER THE GOOD OLD DAYS WHEN WE WERE JUST LIKE YOU.'
The Democrats can hold up signs saying, 'WE WILL KEEP YOUR FREEDOMS FOR YOU IN A SAFE PLACE.'
No more pretenses for anyone.
--Anthony
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Now you're gettin' it! No need for any pretenses here, right Anthony?"
Hello,
Indeed.
The U.S. Military and Oil Companies can get a joint slogan like, 'WE WILL F*CK YOU AND TAKE YOUR STUFF.'
The Republicans can hold up signs saying, 'WE LOVE FREEDOM UNTIL IT MAKES US UNCOMFORTABLE.'
The Muslims can hold up signs saying, 'WE DON'T SPEAK UP ENOUGH WHEN PEOPLE MURDER IN THE NAME OF OUR GOD.'
The Catholics can hold up signs saying, 'WE REMEMBER THE GOOD OLD DAYS WHEN WE WERE JUST LIKE YOU.'
The Democrats can hold up signs saying, 'WE WILL KEEP YOUR FREEDOMS FOR YOU IN A SAFE PLACE.'
No more pretenses for anyone.
--Anthony
Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.
Oh God, I mean like that's so wonderfully liberating, isn't it dude? I'm in humble awe of your newly supercharged sarcasm...congrats!
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RL, while I appreciate STRONGLY your efforts to abandon the gutterspeak and personal attacks, I wish it could expand to eliminating the derogatory political over-dramatizations. I’ve stopped calling it FauxNews and Dumbya for the same reasons as snarking, that it doesn’t further the discussion/debate, it only acts as a slightly less offensive trigger to the reader. It’s just a wish, to ASK it would be to put an unfair burden on anyone and I have no right to anyway, I just am jarred now when it is there and seeing how it degrades the points you make. Nothing more.
Mincing, again, Quote:
disregards the historical violence of Christian actions in the name of Christianity, which I offered in several places. THIS brand of Islam is no more violent, and, again, if your read the article I offered regarding the indoctrination of our own military, and bear in mind that we invaded two sovereign states in our recent past, which invasions were CALLED “crusades” by our then-President, which invasions were undertaken “with god on our side”, which invasions included guns carrying Bible verses, you might have a different perspective. All three monotheistic religions have “VIOLENCE on their side”, all three have wiped out populations, destroyed religious symbols, made religions ILLEGAL, raped and pillaged, etc., etc. I thought we were past that one.
Please distinguish this brand of Islam
Ooops, Anthony, were you being facetious? Damn, you’re good at it...probably because you do so less frequently than others, and often less blatantly. Got me! By the way, I hear the office of Dread Pirate Roberts is often vacant, I think that would be a GREAT one to have! And pirates are classier than ninjas, in my opinion. Sexier, too. They buckle their swash MUCH better!
RL, you might take less pride in being part of the majority if you thought about the fact that the “majority” has often been more akin to a “mob” throughout our history, and that as time went on, they evolved into more tolerance and less rabid hate-mongering. Just a thought.
Anthony, you get the prize for my first giggle of the day. The vision first painted by RL, with your addition, was fun! But when it comes to your statement about Story’s “You are a tool, I am honored to be nothing like you”, I would say “When you insult someone, you demean the validity of your argument”. But then, I’m told I think too much like a lawyer (which is offensive as hell!), so maybe, since it’s all about the Terrorists, you’re more accurate.
As far as “tools” go, I’d rather be a level...if someone didn’t use me, their building would fall down (oooo, I LIKE that one!)
Anthony, I love your last one. I could think up a few too:
Tea Partier sign on their door: NO GOVERNMENT BUT DON’T TOUCH OUR MEDICARE, NOBODY WELCOME WHO IS BLACK, HISPANIC, MUSLIM, ATHEIST, PRO-CHOICE, PRO-EQUALITY, WHO DOESN’T HAVE PAPERS AND THINK LIKE US!
Democrats on their door: WE’LL SPOUT ALL KINDS OF GOOD STUFF, BUT DON’T EXPECT US TO FIGHT FOR IT
Republicans: WE’RE ALL FOR THE CONSTITUTION UNLESS WE’RE NOT
ALL big corporations: REGULATE US AND WE’LL FIND A WAY FOR YOU TO PAY FOR IT ANYWAY
Legislators: WE’RE FOR HIRE TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER
Right Wingers: GOVERNMENT OUT OF OUR LIVES EXCEPT WHERE WE WANT TO CONTROL YOU
And oh, you gotta give the Catholics EVERY SPERM IS PRECIOUS
Ooops, RL tells me you were being sarcastic...I misunderstood.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
RL, while I appreciate STRONGLY your efforts to abandon the gutterspeak and personal attacks, I wish it could expand to eliminating the derogatory political over-dramatizations. I’ve stopped calling it FauxNews and Dumbya for the same reasons as snarking, that it doesn’t further the discussion/debate, it only acts as a slightly less offensive trigger to the reader. It’s just a wish, to ASK it would be to put an unfair burden on anyone and I have no right to anyway, I just am jarred now when it is there and seeing how it degrades the points you make. Nothing more.
Mincing, again,Quote:disregards the historical violence of Christian actions in the name of Christianity, which I offered in several places. THIS brand of Islam is no more violent, and, again, if your read the article I offered regarding the indoctrination of our own military, and bear in mind that we invaded two sovereign states in our recent past, which invasions were CALLED “crusades” by our then-President, which invasions were undertaken “with god on our side”, which invasions included guns carrying Bible verses, you might have a different perspective. All three monotheistic religions have “VIOLENCE on their side”, all three have wiped out populations, destroyed religious symbols, made religions ILLEGAL, raped and pillaged, etc., etc. I thought we were past that one.
Please distinguish this brand of Islam
Ooops, Anthony, were you being facetious? Damn, you’re good at it...probably because you do so less frequently than others, and often less blatantly. Got me! By the way, I hear the office of Dread Pirate Roberts is often vacant, I think that would be a GREAT one to have! And pirates are classier than ninjas, in my opinion. Sexier, too. They buckle their swash MUCH better!
RL, you might take less pride in being part of the majority if you thought about the fact that the “majority” has often been more akin to a “mob” throughout our history, and that as time went on, they evolved into more tolerance and less rabid hate-mongering. Just a thought.
Anthony, you get the prize for my first giggle of the day. The vision first painted by RL, with your addition, was fun! But when it comes to your statement about Story’s “You are a tool, I am honored to be nothing like you”, I would say “When you insult someone, you demean the validity of your argument”. But then, I’m told I think too much like a lawyer (which is offensive as hell!), so maybe, since it’s all about the Terrorists, you’re more accurate.
As far as “tools” go, I’d rather be a level...if someone didn’t use me, their building would fall down (oooo, I LIKE that one!)
Anthony, I love your last one. I could think up a few too:
Tea Partier sign on their door: NO GOVERNMENT BUT DON’T TOUCH OUR MEDICARE, NOBODY WELCOME WHO IS BLACK, HISPANIC, MUSLIM, ATHEIST, PRO-CHOICE, PRO-EQUALITY, WHO DOESN’T HAVE PAPERS AND THINK LIKE US!
Democrats on their door: WE’LL SPOUT ALL KINDS OF GOOD STUFF, BUT DON’T EXPECT US TO FIGHT FOR IT
Republicans: WE’RE ALL FOR THE CONSTITUTION UNLESS WE’RE NOT
ALL big corporations: REGULATE US AND WE’LL FIND A WAY FOR YOU TO PAY FOR IT ANYWAY
Legislators: WE’RE FOR HIRE TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER
Right Wingers: GOVERNMENT OUT OF OUR LIVES EXCEPT WHERE WE WANT TO CONTROL YOU
And oh, you gotta give the Catholics EVERY SPERM IS PRECIOUS
Ooops, RL tells me you were being sarcastic...I misunderstood.
Eliminate the "derogatory political over-dramatizations", in addition to the profanity, vulgarity, and personal attacks? What reason to breathe air then? Girl, you're just 'specting too much, pushing too hard:
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Hello,
I recently watched 'The Invention of Lying' which was about half as good as it could have been. But I do wonder what people would say if they were utterly incapable of editing themselves, and were forced to speak the pure unvarnished truth.
Probably there's a reason that lying is a survival trait. Some small amount of disingenuousness is necessary to an amicable society. It at least lets us live with ourselves. And maybe if we lie to ourselves long enough about being good people, we'll start to change.
Someone said once, "You are what you pretend to be."
--Anthony
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Now you're gettin' it! No need for any pretenses here, right Anthony?"
Hello,
Indeed.
The U.S. Military and Oil Companies can get a joint slogan like, 'WE WILL F*CK YOU AND TAKE YOUR STUFF.'
The Republicans can hold up signs saying, 'WE LOVE FREEDOM UNTIL IT MAKES US UNCOMFORTABLE.'
The Muslims can hold up signs saying, 'WE DON'T SPEAK UP ENOUGH WHEN PEOPLE MURDER IN THE NAME OF OUR GOD.'
The Catholics can hold up signs saying, 'WE REMEMBER THE GOOD OLD DAYS WHEN WE WERE JUST LIKE YOU.'
The Democrats can hold up signs saying, 'WE WILL KEEP YOUR FREEDOMS FOR YOU IN A SAFE PLACE.'
No more pretenses for anyone.
--Anthony
Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.
This is hilarious! Anthony, if you get laid off, you need to go into politics or political commentary, or perhaps professional political snarkalysis...
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Good to see some humor today! I mean 10 days ago none of us were posting about it, and most of us weren't even that aware of it. So now the whole country is at each other's throats over it? Very strange! Lightening up is good for the soul.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
If Islam doesn't = terrorist, then what in god's name is the problem with an Islamic Center ANYWHERE? And Pizmo, you may have some terribly eccentric and personal reason for opposing this building, but if you look at Kaneman's "face of the GOP" the reason is clear as summer rain: Islam = terrorist.
I'm sorry, but the grief argument carries no wait in this context. No one's grief gives them the right to hold people hostage or deny people their fundamental rights. The local government, the people of NYC have already signed off on this.
And there is grave, grave danger in fetishizing "grief," enshrining it and turning it into a permanent justification for hatred which is EXACTLY what the neo-cons want.
Why hasn't ANYTHING been built at ground zero, leaving this gaping wound in NYC, festering with all our nation's vengeful madness, instead of allowing the wound to heal?
And the message it sends if we allow them to build the Community Center? I would say anything but letting them go ahead with the building paints us as insane, but that's just how I see it. You wanna control "the message," good luck. In this life, we have to do the right thing, and let the world draw its own conclusions. Why should we continue to measure our own actions by the actions of madmen? Let some cave-dwellers determine public policy?
/B]
I never said I opposed the building of the building Ron Paul calls a MOSQUE. I said I thought it was a bad idea. Simple, no history lessons needed. Air Force over NY City freaks people out, same thing-ish.
And - hold onto your scabbards, I'm going to multi task right in front of you - I can think it's a bad idea and not think Islam = terrorism. Funny enough, if you had read the nytimes article linked above (a paper some say has a pretty liberal slant) it turns out there are a number of other people who think along the same lines... muslims even!
Dalil Boubakeur, head of the Grande Mosquée of Paris and one of the most senior Islamic clerics in France, told France-Soir: “There are symbolic places that awaken memories whether you mean to or not. And it isn’t good to awaken memories.”
A senior cleric at Egypt’s Al Azhar, the closest equivalent in the Sunni Islamic world to the Vatican, said that building at the proposed location sounded like bad judgment on the part of American Muslims.
“It will create a permanent link between Islam and 9/11,” said Abdel Moety Bayoumi, a member of the Islamic Research Institute at Al Azhar. “Why should we put ourselves and Islam in a position of blame?”
See?? Good reasons, common sense reasons, reasons that don't include hate. I know, I know, it's just not as much fun.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
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I know, RL, I just couldn't resist. It came out of reading all the great stuff in this thread that didn't have partisan jihad-speak, then a post from you with little BUT.
And I wasn't "pushing", I was very clear to say that I had no right to ASK, note; I was commenting and expressing my own sadness.
I understand, I truly do. It makes me cringe every time I have to write Fox News or call him Bush, among other things, but I'm trying...
Pizmo, the fact that some Muslims, some Democrats, ALL Republicans and no doubt all or virtually all fundamentalist Christians think it's a bad idea doesn't prove your point, actually it refutes it. These people fear letting it be built there because they fear the repercussions of a COMMUNITY CENTER which is now being viewed as a mosque, a terrorist gathering place, a sign of terrorist victory, and so many other absurd things. The fact that the American people have made them fear us in this way is the best statement I can think of as to why the "majority" is in the wrong and opposition to the COMMUNITY CENTER is such a sad and ugly thing. They're thinking of survival (Dems political, Muslims their OWN and that of the COMMUNITY CENTER). We should be making them fearful of their own survival? Man, we are one Great Nation.
Sometimes majorities = mobs. They have in the past, I've offered examples. In this case it IS a mob: rational people made irrational by appeals to their fear, bigotry, intolerance, IMAGINATION. To take pleasure in being part of a mob is a sad thing. I'm impressed to see mot people here having perspective and not wanting to be part of the mob.
You only have to think a minute about what the "majority" were against in the past to get perspective:
Interracial marriage
Jews in the military
Blacks buying homes in white neighborhoods
Integration
Civil Rights
Divorce of any kind
Women having the vote (or rights)
And things they were FOR:
Japanese internment camps
The Iraq war
The Vietnam War
McCarthy
Think about it. The majority is not always right, in fact, it is as often wrong as it IS right. And it usually turns around the other way in time.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off
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I remember reading something interesting from HKCavalier concerning tolerance, and how tolerance comes from a position of strength (not invulnerably). As a Christian and Conservative (NOT to be confused with republican or tea partier) I can tolerate the childish "Christian's rule the government and cause all our problems" arguments, cause free speech is a wonderful thing. I can also tolerate a mosque or not-mosque being built, because even though I may not think it's a great idea, I think freedom of religion is. The point being it is legal and I am not threatened.
I have more than a few very liberal friends (occupational hazard as a musician I suppose haha). Some are quite intelligent and I enjoy hearing what and why they believe what they do, but the majority cannot tolerate an opposing opinion, or respect a religious person's intellect ('course I 'spect this is typical of most political parties and groups of people). However, in the context of tolerance being dependent on strength, I can't fault them for being incapable of tolerance due to their position of inferior relative strength, right?
Still, eventually people have gotta stop blaming Bush and Christianity for all the nation's problems. I'm just sayin' ;)
Not accusin' or callin' anyone out, just expressing some general frustrations and dear God, did I actually identify myself with a political philosophy? This can't end well...
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Quote:Pizmo, you know there's a limit to how much sarcasm with which you can lace your post before it is overburdened and breaks under the strain. I think your post is nearly there. It's not working on me, anyway.
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I never said I opposed the building of the building Ron Paul calls a MOSQUE. I said I thought it was a bad idea. Simple, no history lessons needed. Air Force over NY City freaks people out, same thing-ish.
And - hold onto your scabbards, I'm going to multi task right in front of you - I can think it's a bad idea and not think Islam = terrorism. Funny enough, if you had read the nytimes article linked above (a paper some say has a pretty liberal slant) it turns out there are a number of other people who think along the same lines... muslims even!
Dalil Boubakeur, head of the Grande Mosquée of Paris and one of the most senior Islamic clerics in France, told France-Soir: “There are symbolic places that awaken memories whether you mean to or not. And it isn’t good to awaken memories.”
A senior cleric at Egypt’s Al Azhar, the closest equivalent in the Sunni Islamic world to the Vatican, said that building at the proposed location sounded like bad judgment on the part of American Muslims.
“It will create a permanent link between Islam and 9/11,” said Abdel Moety Bayoumi, a member of the Islamic Research Institute at Al Azhar. “Why should we put ourselves and Islam in a position of blame?”
See?? Good reasons, common sense reasons, reasons that don't include hate. I know, I know, it's just not as much fun.
Whether or not Dr. Paul calls the place a "mosque" is kinda immaterial, but you really wanted to make sure I heard that. Yeah, I'm aware he used the word. Shocker incoming: a lot of people call the place a "mosque" out of convenience and brevity and some do so--I'm not namin' names!--out of honest ignorance of what a "mosque" really is. Shocker #2: a lot of Americans are pretty ignorant of Muslim culture and happy to remain so.
I never accused you of saying what you never said. However, the difference between "opposing" a thing and thinking something is "a bad idea" seems mostly a matter of conviction.
And shocker #3: It is not because I am a liberal that I support the building going up. I am not surprised that people of various political persuasions think this "mosque" is a "bad idea." Fear knows no political affiliation. Howard Dean is a heck of a lot more liberal than I and he agrees with you. Mayor Bloomberg is a conservative and he very eloquently agrees with me.
Same with Muslims. They are a large heterogeneous group (that's kinda the point folk on this side of the argument have been trying to make, btw). They don't all think alike and are entitled to their opinions--as well as their peaceable assembly, worshipping as they so choose, legal contracts, etc.
And I'm sorry, but “There are symbolic places that awaken memories whether you mean to or not. And it isn’t good to awaken memories,” is just too B-movie spoooooky and full of shit to take seriously. You think you can control what people freakin' remember? You wanna choose THAT road to go down? George Orwell called, he wants his cautionary tale back, looks like you're using it as a life preserver--1984 is not a floatation device.
Here's a thing: if you don't think it's a good idea to build a mosque in lower Manhattan, then don't build one!
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:Y'know, I think we're looking at the latest outbreak of Palin Syndrome (Palin-drome?). Things look pretty dire for about two weeks generally, but even untreated the fever seems to burn itself out in most patients before any lasting harm is done--though many patients seem to suffer from a lingering form of mild amnesia.
Originally posted by Niki2:
How on EARTH do we get the American people to SEE THIS?!
Patient zero almost always dies though, the disease is quite incurable for the carrier, it seems. Thing is, an outbreak of Palin Syndrome seems only to attack when patient zero is nearly terminal already. The last definitive case in this country was John McCain's Presidential Campaign and it didn't last long once P.S. entered its system. This time it's the tea party movement in critical condition.
It's a shame, because Palin Syndrome is entirely preventable with proper mental hygiene.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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It's funny, HKC, because I've been thinking about the "Palin-drome" thing lately, too. A palindrome is a word or sentence that reads the same backwards or forwards ("racecar" is one; "Able was I, ere I saw Elba" is another). A Sarah-Palin-drome, however, is always more backwards than forward.
AURaptor's Greatest Hits:
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Still, eventually people have gotta stop blaming Bush and Christianity for all the nation's problems. I'm just sayin' ;)
And eventually, people will have to stop blaming Obama and Islam for all our problems, too. Just sayin'. ;)
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haha fair enough. I would argue that blaming Obama is at least more relevant (seeing as how he and his are in charge right now) than blaming bush, but the truth is Obama is also being blamed for things not his fault. I just wish I were allowed to criticize their policies without having to be labeled a 'racist.'
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
haha fair enough. I would argue that blaming Obama is at least more relevant (seeing as how he and his are in charge right now) than blaming bush, but the truth is Obama is also being blamed for things not his fault. I just wish I were allowed to criticize their policies without having to be labeled a 'racist.'
Yeah, and I wish I were allowed to criticize the invasion of Iraq 7 years ago without being labeled a "terrorist". Guess you can't always get what you want...
Heck, I can't even defend the rights of one religious group to do what dozens of other religious groups do every day in this country without being labeled one. Apparently most Americans believe in "equal rights" for all, but some are clearly more "equal" than others.
AURaptor's Greatest Hits:
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.
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Quote:
I see Christians as being noble in their desire to spread the greatness of their god(again as silly as that is).
You know I think all religions come from the same place, one I can sympathise with because I've been there: an honest desire to make sense of our existence, and find humanity's 'true' path. All religions have moral beauty in them, but all are also quite backward - because they're old, and are unwilling to accept moral greyness.
But when I hear a muslim talk about the beauty and benevolence in his religion I believe him - because I recognise the same attitude that I once had. And all religions have emphases like these in them somewhere.
I guess my point is that there's nobleness in Islam as well as any other faith. And you can't compare the noble side of christianity with the ugly extremist side of Islam.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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And as much as some would like to believe otherwise, there are Christian monsters and murderers as well, even in this day and age.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Ah, wittle River is getting cranky.... Got nothing but absurd straw men to toss out there.
Sucks when people won't fall in line with your fear and hatred, huh? Poor kid. How sad.
Doesn't suck at all buddy. Actually, feels pretty good knowing that I'm already IN line with the vast majority of Americans on this, 68% I believe. Only 26% think like you do. Now that MUST suck for you. So sorry
River, act like a character from Deadwood and tell this smarmy cock-sucker how you really feel. Language was invented to convey meaning and feeling...stop being nice. Tact waters down truth and conviction. Wish you luck, however you used to be a lion and now seem like a lamb. I'm sure NIKI2 will thank you for your coooooooth.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And as much as some would like to believe otherwise, there are Christian monsters and murderers as well, even in this day and age.
Really. I have a challenge. Everyday I will post killings of people(now ..currently) in the name of Allah...you do the same about people killed in the name of Jesus(who happens to be a fictional character praised in the minds of idiots...as is Mohammad).....What say you Mister "so do Christians"...again saying Bush is a christian does not count unless you can find the pope or a high ranking catholic(bishop=immam) agreeing. Don't forget O'bama is a christian
dumb ass.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Probably there's a reason that lying is a survival trait. Some small amount of disingenuousness is necessary to an amicable society. It at least lets us live with ourselves. And maybe if we lie to ourselves long enough about being good people, we'll start to change.
Someone said once, "You are what you pretend to be."
Again, this is said best by none other than the old grim reaper hisself.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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"Droogs walking down the street drinking at milk bars."
-----------------------------------------------
There was me, that is Alex, and my three droogs, that is Pete, Georgie, and Dim, and we sat in the Korova Milkbar.
The Korova milkbar sold milk-plus, milk plus vellocet or synthemesc or drencrom, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old ultra-violence.
________________________________________________
A Clockwork Orange - conditioned responses to feelings of evil which prevent the exercise of free will.
______________________________________________________________
It is much like the 50s and 60s when the Communists or Red Plague was all the rage. It was as though there was a Commie in every bush and bowl of cereal. Fear, my droogies, fear keeps everyone in line.
It is often said that: Leftists are weak-minded fools who foolishly and quite wrongly follow the Socialists out to destroy our way of life.
Now we have a new "ism" ladies and gents, it's called Extremism. Of course only muslims have the market cornered in this regard, so there is no need to look elsewhere for such cunning and avarice. Only muslims would sleep with cats and dogs, molest children and push little old ladies down stairs.
And, although it was Saudis who carried out the vicious attack on 9/11, it made perfect sense to retaliate against the Iraqis. After all, their all muslims, what's the dif?
SGG
Tawabawho?
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Really. I have a challenge. Everyday I will post killings of people(now ..currently) in the name of Allah...you do the same about people killed in the name of Jesus(who happens to be a fictional character praised in the minds of idiots...as is Mohammad).....What say you Mister "so do Christians"...again saying Bush is a christian does not count unless you can find the pope or a high ranking catholic(bishop=immam) agreeing. Don't forget O'bama is a christian
Again, some of you seem to be missing my point entirely. At this point, I'm forced to confront the idea that it's being done intentionally.
The POINT is that there are murderers and monsters the world over, and there's always someone (like Wulfie here) who is predisposed to murder and monstrous activity, and who is just looking and begging for a "cause" they can believe in, which will tell them it's really okay to give in to their worst desires, because it's only natural, and thus "righteous" to do so.
Islam doesn't *create* mass murderers, any more than Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or atheism do; they tend to ATTRACT such personalities, because under the umbrella of "god's will", they can go ahead and be as monstrous as they always wanted to be, and all is "forgiven" because their acts were carried out in a "holy" cause.
I find it funny that you want to play games and trade murders. Wait - "funny" isn't the right word. Pathetic. That's the word.
But I find it odd that you want to place restrictions and constrictions on the Christian side of your little game. You say I need to have some kind of official sanction from church higher-ups (although only Catholic officials seem to make the cut for you) for a "Christian" killer to be recognized. Who's the Muslim pope who sanctioned the 9/11 attacks, then? Osama isn't an Imam, last I heard.
Forgive me if I decide not to play your little game by the rigged rules you've already written. You'll just have to keep playing with yourself.
AURaptor's Greatest Hits:
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Islam doesn't *create* mass murderers, any more than Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or atheism do; they tend to ATTRACT such personalities, because under the umbrella of "god's will", they can go ahead and be as monstrous as they always wanted to be, and all is "forgiven" because their acts were carried out in a "holy" cause.
Bali, Beslan, Mumbai, 9/11, Madrid, London, D.C. Snipers, Ft. Hood shooter, suicide bombers.....
Sorry, but playing inter webs psychologist or profiler isn't really your gig, is it? You overlook the obvious and ignore reality, all so you can spin the actual story.
Mass murderers aren't made, they're born? And it just HAPPENS, out of the purest of blind, dumb luck that most end up being *tricked* into buying the Islam fairy tale, more so than all the other mass murderers for all the other religions combined ?
Huh.
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Ah, wittle River is getting cranky.... Got nothing but absurd straw men to toss out there.
Sucks when people won't fall in line with your fear and hatred, huh? Poor kid. How sad.
Doesn't suck at all buddy. Actually, feels pretty good knowing that I'm already IN line with the vast majority of Americans on this, 68% I believe. Only 26% think like you do. Now that MUST suck for you. So sorry
River, act like a character from Deadwood and tell this smarmy cock-sucker how you really feel. Language was invented to convey meaning and feeling...stop being nice. Tact waters down truth and conviction. Wish you luck, however you used to be a lion and now seem like a lamb. I'm sure NIKI2 will thank you for your coooooooth.
He's pretty harmless K. He likes to snark me some, it's ok. You need to relax, and ask yourself if hurling the same nasty stuff at your favorite targets every day is really accomplishing anything, or even making you feel any better about yourself. And do you really think that your nasty stuff has any impact on them? You know they just brush it aside just like you do, so what is the point to it?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Pizmo, the fact that some Muslims, some Democrats, ALL Republicans and no doubt all or virtually all fundamentalist Christians think it's a bad idea doesn't prove your point, actually it refutes it. These people fear letting it be built there because they fear the repercussions of a COMMUNITY CENTER which is now being viewed as a mosque, a terrorist gathering place, a sign of terrorist victory, and so many other absurd things.
The fact that you ascribe those negative feelings and motivations to ALL of those people is a sure sign of you being extremely wonky. Have a nice day.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
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Opposition to the Terror Mosque is actually growing. Latest polls show 70% oppose now, while only 24% approve. Hard to believe that 70% of all Americans, Liberals and Muslims included, are just so wrong, and so bigoted. Must be just pure hell around the water coolers at NBC & NY Times. Great to see that Katie Couric's ratings have just dropped to an all time low, a number so low in viewership that even Dan Rather never approached it before he got the boot. How'd that old KISS song go again?....Oh oh tears are falling!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Opposition to the Terror Mosque is actually growing. Latest polls show 70% oppose now, while only 24% approve. Hard to believe that 70% of all Americans, Liberals and Muslims included, are just so wrong, and so bigoted. Must be just pure hell around the water coolers at NBC & NY Times. Great to see that Katie Couric's ratings have just dropped to an all time low, a number so low in viewership that even Dan Rather never approached it before he got the boot. How'd that old KISS song go again?....Oh oh tears are falling!
Hard to believe that you think the rights of Americans should be decided by opinion polls. You don't think that many Americans could be so wrong and so bigoted? Really? What if I were to show you the polling data from the 60s, where fully 80% of Americans polled believed that interracial marriage should be illegal?
I guess in your book, they were 100% correct.
AURaptor's Greatest Hits:
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Islam doesn't *create* mass murderers, any more than Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or atheism do; they tend to ATTRACT such personalities, because under the umbrella of "god's will", they can go ahead and be as monstrous as they always wanted to be, and all is "forgiven" because their acts were carried out in a "holy" cause.
Bali, Beslan, Mumbai, 9/11, Madrid, London, D.C. Snipers, Ft. Hood shooter, suicide bombers.....
Sorry, but playing inter webs psychologist or profiler isn't really your gig, is it? You overlook the obvious and ignore reality, all so you can spin the actual story.
Mass murderers aren't made, they're born? And it just HAPPENS, out of the purest of blind, dumb luck that most end up being *tricked* into buying the Islam fairy tale, more so than all the other mass murderers for all the other religions combined ?
Huh.
Your grasp of reality is as shoddy as your reading comprehension. I said that radical extremes ATTRACT people who are already predisposed to mass murder.
And in the past, you and several others have tried to lay the "history's worst mass murderers" crown on the heads of atheists (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc.)
So were you lying then, or are you lying now?
I not only reject your argument, I reject your "facts", because you've offered nothing by way of evidence other than your opinion. And we all know you're no expert, on anything.
AURaptor's Greatest Hits:
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.
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My pal, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist for The Washington Post, Charles Krauthammer, wrote a great piece on this today called The Last Refuge of a Liberal. Read it if you like.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/26/AR2010
082605233.html
My favorite part is at the end..."The Democrats are going to get beaten badly in November. Not just because the economy is ailing. And not just because Obama over-read his mandate in governing too far left. But because a comeuppance is due the arrogant elites whose undisguised contempt for the great unwashed prevents them from conceding a modicum of serious thought to those who dare oppose them."
Yes Charles I agree. The progressive elitists, those that lecture us every day about what is right and wrong, will soon be knocked off their high perch of self-imposed superiority.
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"The progressive elitists, those that lecture us every day about what is right and wrong, will soon be knocked off their high perch of self-imposed superiority."
Hello,
Is it possible to find a politician, political spokesperson, or political movement that does not 'lecture us every day about what is right and wrong?'
Attending a political speech or program is a lot like attending a Church. You get to hear about sin and sinners, and then you get to hear about the righteous path to the Lord.
--Anthony
Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And as much as some would like to believe otherwise, there are Christian monsters and murderers as well, even in this day and age.
Really. I have a challenge. Everyday I will post killings of people(now ..currently) in the name of Allah...you do the same about people killed in the name of Jesus(who happens to be a fictional character praised in the minds of idiots...as is Mohammad).....What say you Mister "so do Christians"...again saying Bush is a christian does not count unless you can find the pope or a high ranking catholic(bishop=immam) agreeing. Don't forget O'bama is a christian
Actually a nice try Kane. The problem as you began to realise is that we cannot all agree on the 'weight' of evil of the Iraq invasions (or other actions of Christians), and how much of it is down to the influence of Christianity. We all have our own take on it, influenced by our individual biases. Start to move away from evil-balancing scales, how you measure it in your mind's eye is very different to how Kwicko measures it in his mind (you're only moving towards another debate on the Iraq war this way). See you on the other side...
Quote:
River, act like a character from Deadwood and tell this smarmy cock-sucker how you really feel.
If you really love her Kaneman, let her go.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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A "religion of peace" interview, followed by a spirited discussion.....
Moderate Muslims, like the regular old normal Ground Zero mosque folks? They're clearly not "Terrorists", so what are they then? My liberal friends wanna take a crack at this?
How 'bout my gay friends out there? Like what you see?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Opposition to the Terror Mosque is actually growing. Latest polls show 70% oppose now, while only 24% approve. Hard to believe that 70% of all Americans, Liberals and Muslims included, are just so wrong, and so bigoted. Must be just pure hell around the water coolers at NBC & NY Times. Great to see that Katie Couric's ratings have just dropped to an all time low, a number so low in viewership that even Dan Rather never approached it before he got the boot. How'd that old KISS song go again?....Oh oh tears are falling!
Hard to believe that you think the rights of Americans should be decided by opinion polls. You don't think that many Americans could be so wrong and so bigoted? Really? What if I were to show you the polling data from the 60s, where fully 80% of Americans polled believed that interracial marriage should be illegal?
I guess in your book, they were 100% correct.
AURaptor's Greatest Hits:
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.
Is this the same era that close to 80% of republicans voted for the civil rights act while only 47% of democrats did.... in the senate? And similar % in the house. You seem to love ancient history. You know, the crusades, Bush, the sixties.....Keep it relevant.
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And as much as some would like to believe otherwise, there are Christian monsters and murderers as well, even in this day and age.
Really. I have a challenge. Everyday I will post killings of people(now ..currently) in the name of Allah...you do the same about people killed in the name of Jesus(who happens to be a fictional character praised in the minds of idiots...as is Mohammad).....What say you Mister "so do Christians"...again saying Bush is a christian does not count unless you can find the pope or a high ranking catholic(bishop=immam) agreeing. Don't forget O'bama is a christian
Actually a nice try Kane. The problem as you began to realise is that we cannot all agree on the 'weight' of evil of the Iraq invasions (or other actions of Christians), and how much of it is down to the influence of Christianity. We all have our own take on it, influenced by our individual biases. Start to move away from evil-balancing scales, how you measure it in your mind's eye is very different to how Kwicko measures it in his mind (you're only moving towards another debate on the Iraq war this way). See you on the other side...Quote:
River, act like a character from Deadwood and tell this smarmy cock-sucker how you really feel.
If you really love her Kaneman, let her go.
It's not personal. It's just war.
My soulmate did it again. How is the Iraq invasion a Christian thing? I'm pretty sure my congress voted for it and voted to fund it. Is congress Christian? Seeing it was passed with only Ron Paul and that creature with the hot wife... Dennis Kusinich-something opposing it. I find it quite a stretch to call that a Christian invasion.....I call for another retraction
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Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
My pal, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist for The Washington Post, Charles Krauthammer, wrote a great piece on this today called The Last Refuge of a Liberal. Read it if you like.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/26/AR2010
082605233.html
My favorite part is at the end..."The Democrats are going to get beaten badly in November. Not just because the economy is ailing. And not just because Obama over-read his mandate in governing too far left. But because a comeuppance is due the arrogant elites whose undisguised contempt for the great unwashed prevents them from conceding a modicum of serious thought to those who dare oppose them."
Yes Charles I agree. The progressive elitists, those that lecture us every day about what is right and wrong, will soon be knocked off their high perch of self-imposed superiority.
You are an Islamophobic, nativistic, bigot...who happens to throw around economics to make a point...Shame on you.
fantastic article.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
A "religion of peace" interview, followed by a spirited discussion.....
Moderate Muslims, like the regular old normal Ground Zero mosque folks? They're clearly not "Terrorists", so what are they then? My liberal friends wanna take a crack at this?
How 'bout my gay friends out there? Like what you see?
Kwicko, what say you? Do you really want to be thrown from a tall building(maybe even the "Community Center" at ground zero) for being gay? After watching this I my convert and worship Allah....fantastic law...this sharia...BUILD BABY BUILD.....BUILD BABY BUILD.....
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
My pal, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist for The Washington Post, Charles Krauthammer, wrote a great piece on this today called The Last Refuge of a Liberal. Read it if you like.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/26/AR2010
082605233.html
My favorite part is at the end..."The Democrats are going to get beaten badly in November. Not just because the economy is ailing. And not just because Obama over-read his mandate in governing too far left. But because a comeuppance is due the arrogant elites whose undisguised contempt for the great unwashed prevents them from conceding a modicum of serious thought to those who dare oppose them."
Yes Charles I agree. The progressive elitists, those that lecture us every day about what is right and wrong, will soon be knocked off their high perch of self-imposed superiority.
You are an Islamophobic, nativistic, bigot...who happens to throw around economics to make a point...Shame on you.
Meredith Brooks wrote something closer to what I really am Kman......
"Yesterday I cried.
You must have been relieved
To see the softer side,
I can understand how you'd be so confused,
I don't envy you.
I'm a little bit of everything
all rolled into one
I'm a bitch,
I'm a lover,
I'm a child,
I'm a mother,
I'm a sinner,
I'm a saint,
and I do not feel ashamed.
I'm your hell,
I'm your dream,
I'm nothing in between.
You know you wouldn't want it any other way.
So take me as I am,
This may mean you'll have to be a stronger man.
Rest assured that when I start to make you nervous, and I'm going to extremes:
Tomorrow I will change,
And today won't mean a thing
I'm a bitch,
I'm a tease,
I'm a goddess on my knees.
When you hurt,
When you suffer,
I'm your angel undercover.
I've been numb,
I'm revived,
Can't say I'm not alive,
You know I wouldn't want it any other way.
Just when you think you've got me figured out,
The season's already changin'.
I think it's cool you do what you do
And don't try to save me."
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Quote:
My soulmate did it again. How is the Iraq invasion a Christian thing?
Kwicko can tell you. And I warned you...
It's not personal. It's just war.
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This sucker’s still going on, eh? And here I thought everything that needed saying had been said. I should have realized that would mean nothing...sigh...
Trader, before I say anything else, let me say that my experience with Republicans has exactly mirrored yours with Democrats. Interestingly, in this place, what I see is liberals being quite content to debate things—with a few exceptions completely void of personal attacks—while conservatives—with a few exceptions--usually joining a discussion spouting hate, derogatory personal attacks, and obscenities. But our discussions here seem to show me that we’re pretty equal in making our points, valid or not in the other side’s opinion, snarking personally and responding to other people’s points.
I’m going to break down this thread to make my point. Most likely none will read it, but I think it's a relatively accurate refutation on your statement about liberals:Quote:
It starts OUT right away with an incident portrayed by a conservative about a country run amok with no government, no police, etc., as being a statement against Muslims.
The response is a reasonable reply that there are extremists everywhere, they do not represent rational people, followed by, yes, a personal attack with one salient point:Quote:
Then comes a point that, despite all the violence, nobody claims all Mexicans are violent.
No one is denying the existence of Muslim extremists. We just don't see their existence as proof that all Muslims are extremists.
The response states flatly that “some are denying the existence of Muslim extremists”, which is patently untrue, and the point of the post is to say liberals are unable to see that truth. Then a personal slur, and a snark in response to the personal slur.
Next a comparison to the lack of calling Mexican catholics all monsters, and the cogent point that ‘There's plenty of monsters in every religion”, and a snark about the personal slur.
The reply refutes the Mexico thing because the Mexicans is drug lords, not religion. The response is frustration at the comparison between Christians and Muslims, with the point that only Muslims are embarked on a world-wide movement and that until Christians do so “everywhere at the edge of the sword, such comparisons are feeble and silly”
Then agreement with the lack of need to compare the religions, and the fact that, once again, essentially “there are monsters in both religions”.
The reply agrees, saying sort of “history doesn’t count”. The responder points out perspective, that "Zoo A is within my antelope tolerance level. I am prepared to tolerate X amount of antelopes, but X+1 antelopes gives me a tizzy."
The response misinterprets the previous discussion by characterizing it thus: “because Christians may be assholes, jihadists are actually soft and fuzzy in comparison”, which is not at all accurate.
There follows a good point as to which scares the poster more, “Christian fundies or Muslim fundies?” and how Christian extremists are more of a personal threat to those in America.
The reply is the comparison “9/11 has always paled in terms of practical damage when compared to how we responded to it. And how we CONTINUE to respond to it.”
The response offers a personal reaction to “fundies” in general.
I came in with an attempt at perspective between America as a Christian nation and what America’s done as a result of the visceral fear of Islam, reference and refutation that the original post of the thread refers to something happening far away in a lawless country, and the point that the discussion reflects that some people DO “blame Islam for 9/11.
The reply opines that the concept that all Muslims are evil is bullshit
I agreed with Cav that the Muslim extremists aren’t a power compared to us, and that we should look to who is fostering the anti-Muslim propaganda to see who is the REAL enemy.
Story challenges the statement that anyone disputes there are Muslim terrorists.
And on and on...where exactly do
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Back to the discussion at hand. I disagree with you to an extent:Quote:
I don’t know if you mean lack of current political strength or personal strength...if you mean the former, I don’t think that has anything to do with intolerance except in an ancillary way. It is PERSONAL strength or weakness, to me, which determines tolerance. A “majority” can easily become a mob, but among them, it is generally those who are of the weakest self-confidence who are the most easily led and manipulated. That exists in people regardless of their political affiliation or religion or anything else, I believe.
However, in the context of tolerance being dependent on strength, I can't fault them for being incapable of tolerance due to their position of inferior relative strength, right?
I don’t blame Bush or Christianity for all the nation’s problems, by a long shot. They’ve been CONTRIBUTORY, but a lot more went into our financial mess than Bush alone, or Christianity alone, or the combination. I do fault Bush’s policies, his advisors, and the mentality in his administration (appoint incompetent cronies, deregulate, lower taxes for the wealthy, cow-tow to Wall Street, lack of oversight and more) for the economic mess, and that the backing he got from the Christian Right helped him get into office and he in return increased their ability to affect laws, etc. But there are many to blame for the recession, and everything else that’s gone wrong, not just Bush or religion.
Bang on Cav:Quote:
And the “mosque” thing IS irrelevant. I’m finally seeing SOME sources call it the COMMUNITY CENTER it is, but it’s become the current vernacular, and those who are propagandizing it have made it so. Whatever you call it, the fact remains that it IS NOT A MOSQUE. Has nothing to do with the reference.
Fear knows no political affiliation.
Also on the “symbolic places”...again, that is irrelevant. I don’t consider Ground Zero symbolic and it raises nothing but sadness to me. I wish they’d rebuild so it had less of an effect, was less of an open sore on the land. But different people consider different places symbolic; personally, I found St. Mark’s Square in Venice one of my major ones—not by choice, but because for some reason, all three times we have gone there in my adult life, I start to cry. Not sadness or happiness, just (I’m betting) a reaction to the time I visited there as a child with my parents. I don’t know why. That it is symbolic to some is fine, but it has nothing to do with the REAL reasons for the furor...making it symbolic (or more so) has been a political talking point further used to incite resentment.Quote:
Oh, I LOVE that. Maybe a “mental enema and proper food (i.e., intelligence/education)”, eh?
because Palin Syndrome is entirely preventable with proper mental hygiene.
I love Quote:
too, Mike.
A Sarah-Palin-drome, however, is always more backwards than forward
Trader, I don’t think anyone (here at least) thinks of anyone who disagrees with Obama’s policies is a racist. It’s the ones who express themselves with visceral terms and portray him as the end of America, etc., who are being manipulated by appeals to their (conscious or unconscious) racism. If people did nothing but disagree with his policies, I don’t think the cry of “racism” would ever have come up...certainly not by those of us who THINK. But they haven’t been, for the most part; the appeal has been to see him as “the other” as a PERSON, and the talk has been about him being not an American, some kind of anti-Christ, not a Christian but a CLOSET Muslim, etc.
By the way, I find the past quite relevant...and so does the Right. How often do we hear The Great God Reagan intoned? If people can reach that far back, then the previous administration is fair game, and NO President acts in a vacuum, all Presidents’ administration have to deal with what was left for them.
As to why the Iraq invasion was a “Christian” war. As I remarked to someone regarding this (not here),
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Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Ah, wittle River is getting cranky.... Got nothing but absurd straw men to toss out there.
Sucks when people won't fall in line with your fear and hatred, huh? Poor kid. How sad.
Doesn't suck at all buddy. Actually, feels pretty good knowing that I'm already IN line with the vast majority of Americans on this, 68% I believe. Only 26% think like you do. Now that MUST suck for you. So sorry
River, act like a character from Deadwood and tell this smarmy cock-sucker how you really feel. Language was invented to convey meaning and feeling...stop being nice. Tact waters down truth and conviction. Wish you luck, however you used to be a lion and now seem like a lamb. I'm sure NIKI2 will thank you for your coooooooth.
He's pretty harmless K. He likes to snark me some, it's ok. You need to relax, and ask yourself if hurling the same nasty stuff at your favorite targets every day is really accomplishing anything, or even making you feel any better about yourself. And do you really think that your nasty stuff has any impact on them? You know they just brush it aside just like you do, so what is the point to it?
My dear, This site already has Auraptor. That you think you can debate these terds without vulgarity is nonsense. I am not here to debate these idiots I am here to call them stupid fucks. Are there no better sites to have civilized debate? I do it all for the lurkers...no-one here is going to change the country, no-one here is going to change policy, Kwicko and the like are either commies or so Liberal as to be beyond debate...fuck 'em...Haken thanks you for the views
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Thanks for you so-dismissive summary Niki.
Charles Krauthammer Washingon Post article?
Dismissed as partisan snarking!
"Moderate" Muslim video about killing and torturing Gays under Islam?
Dismissed as a video showing the bad!
Read the Krathammer piece Niki. You'll never need to ask any questions again about the country's disdain for the liberal elite's self-imposed rightousness. We are sick of it and fed up with it. Tell me when you get it.
Watch the video and then tell me how these "moderate" Muslims' intolerance, torture, and murder of Gays squares with you and your beliefs.
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
My dear, This site already has Auraptor. That you think you can debate these terds without vulgarity is nonsense. I am not here to debate these idiots I am here to call them stupid fucks. Are there no better sites to have civilized debate? I do it all for the lurkers...no-one here is going to change the country, no-one here is going to change policy, Kwicko and the like are either commies or so Liberal as to be beyond debate...fuck 'em...Haken thanks you for the views
This is like the 3rd or 4th time you've expressed these same thoughts to me Kman. Do I have to eternally 'splain things to you? Well I'm done with the "splainin'.
As for AuRaptor, I'm not trying to compete with him in any way. I do my thing and he does his and you do yours. Certainly there's room for all of us in here.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kane-ette:Quote:
...no-one here is going to change the country, no-one here is going to change policy
this is a beautiful, nearly poetic reminder, of how impotent and trivial we all are.
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Umm, why oh WHY do the mighty-righty-whiteys keep bringing up that Bali nightclub bombing.
Firstoff, it was a disaffected Balinese military officer, who turned himself in and confessed, including details only the bomber would know which the Bali authorities did NOT share with the US, for reasons which'll become clear in a minute...
And yet, we have ELEVEN guys we waterboarded till they "confessed" and the REASON we never threaten to hand them over to the Bali officials is cause they do NOT know those details, we're just torturing them till they say what we want as an excuse - shit, you waterboard someone a hundred-plus times like we did Khalid-Shiek-Muhammed, they'll confess to ANYTHING.
Eleven "confessions" all claiming sole responsibility and not a bloody fuckin one of em even knows what kind of explosive was used, despite it being in the goddamn original news reports... oh yeah, real convincing.
Enough with the fucking Bali-bullshit, ok, to our merry little torturers that's just the plus-one, like spitting on the sidewalk or resisting arrest, the joke charge to show their power as they lord it over their victim, is all.
Sorry, it just disgusts me that anyone would be stupid enough to mention it, knowing it's all but a fucking JOKE now, that our torture-techs think it's fucking FUNNY to get every victim they can to confess to it, to show off how they can break anyone into saying anything, flagrantly waving the obvious fact that guilt, innocence or proof no longer really matter to americans, who ignorantly cheer it on without realizing some day they too might be on the waterboard.
Dumb fucks.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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Just checking in to see if Rappy ever grew some conviction and posted that proof he said he could provide.
The answer:
NOPE!
Shocker.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
My dear, This site already has Auraptor.
Several of them, even. None more intelligent or honest than the original Rap'tard.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Yes Charles I agree. The progressive elitists, those that lecture us every day about what is right and wrong, will soon be knocked off their high perch of self-imposed superiority.
... to be replaced with... ? Neo-con elitists, who will lecture us every day about what is right and wrong, from their high perch of self-proclaimed superiority?
AURaptor's Greatest Hits:
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Is this the same era that close to 80% of republicans voted for the civil rights act while only 47% of democrats did.... in the senate? And similar % in the house. You seem to love ancient history. You know, the crusades, Bush, the sixties.....Keep it relevant.
Okay, so what's the relevance of 9/11 to this non-mosque? Remember, no going back to the past, to things like Bush or ancient history! If you take the past out of the equation, what's your problem with this community center?
Also, anyone stupid enough to think that Sharia law is coming to the U.S. if one community center is built, please raise your hands. Anybody?
It's a bogeyman, nothing more. Look at what Christians are doing to gays in Uganda. Is that confirmation of the way you'll all treat gays here in the U.S.? Shall we ban Christianity from this country for the horrific actions of some fucking idiots half a world away?
You people really do have no faith in your country at all, to think that it could or would fall so easily. You claim we have the strongest, BEST, most righteous country in the history of the world, and then claim that one community center will end that. You're either lying maliciously and deliberately (and we all know you are), or you're fucking incredibly stupid (and we all know you're that, too).
AURaptor's Greatest Hits:
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.
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Quote:
After watching this I my convert and worship Allah....fantastic law...this sharia...BUILD BABY BUILD.....BUILD BABY BUILD.....
Brilliant illustration and proof of my point, which is that religions tend to attract the whackos and psychopaths, who will use that religion's tenets to justify the vileness that's already in their souls. Hey, as long as you get to throw gays from buildings, it doesn't matter what the rest of the religion is about - YOU'RE IN!
AURaptor's Greatest Hits:
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.
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RiverL, I was not dismissive of you, but of the article and video. I don’t have to read the article to know what it says. Merely “But because a comeuppance is due the arrogant elites whose undisguised contempt for the great unwashed prevents them from conceding a modicum of serious thought to those who dare oppose them." is sufficient to tell me it’s going to be the usual buzz words and talking points. You’ve heard the same sort of slurs from the left, surely you dismiss them out of hand? I understand your hatred of everything left and what you think of us; I don’t feel the same toward the right, but you’re entitled to your opinion. Nonetheless, there is no reason I need to READ that kind of stuff, any more than you would choose to read the kind of insanity lefty extremists write.
What you don’t get is that I wouldn’t read its equivalent from the LEFT, either, same reason I don’t watch that stupid “Joe Show” or whatever it is...oh, got it, “Ed Show”. I dismiss extremists and slander from BOTH sides as just what it is; pandering to the base in the worst possible way. “arrogant elitists”, “great unwashed”, “undisguised contempt”, "modicum of serious thought"...they say it all.
As for the video, you don’t get it: I DON’T LIKE ISLAM, I abhor what those in power within it have done what they have done to it. I HATE some of the tenants of Islam AS IT IS PRACTICED CURRENTLY. That has nothing to do with my acceptance of the fact that any and all religions can be and have been twisted to obtain an end.
I’m not defending Islam, as those on your end seem to be convinced I am, I’ve been trying to bring perspective, to say that my argument is that all religions can be and have been used as the means to an end, and many, many religious people can be manipulated to do things a rational person would abhor. Historically, that is true, end of story.
Today, it is Islam which is being twisted beyond recognition, but within our country, so has Christianity in some places. I detest it in both, but I don’t see Christianity as having “god on their side” any more than Islam or Judiasm OR BUDDHISM. We HAVE no god, so “he” can’t be on “our side”, "he" can't be used to justify jihad or crusade. We live within the greys, with the recognition that any human being would be different under different circumstances, in a different religion, country, etc.
We recognize the HUMANITY in all, and the ability for all to be turned to evil. That’s precisely why we follow the concept of looking to OURSELVES for what is right, not following any leader or religious authority figure supposedly interpreting the word of a god. When you take away those two things, it’s amazingly easy to recognize what is the right thing to do. Mostly: try to understand (that does NOT mean condone) and try to be compassionate (even to those who have been warped by what’s been instilled in them).
I’m not sure what’s meant by we already have Raptor...is Kane trying to say Raptor is reasonable? If so, that raises my eyebrows, as to me Raptor is just a slightly milder version of Kane. There’s no tolerance from either of them or Whozit, who is the worst in that he NEVER has any point, he just spews. I also don’t know what Kane has invested in trying to convince you to be nasty again, unless there is some sockpuppetry involved, and I’m not getting into THAT again. I have decided to take each poster as they post and will continue to do so; I’m here to converse, not play games. If someone is faking civility, I don't feel like I've been conned, I just appreciate the lack of ugliness and the ability to hear people's views. If they're NOT their views, that doesn't bother me either, they serve the purpose of furthering the conversation among those who ARE being real.
Obviously Kane is the opposite, from his own words. He's only here to slur and attack. He’s entitled, I have no control over anyone, as you have said of yourself, but it’s curious why he keeps harping on you. No more than that.
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"Whozit, who is the worst in that he NEVER has any point"
Hello,
Whozit sometimes has a point, buried somewhere between big ears and bagels. However, I understand wanting to avoid the signal to noise ratio on that channel.
--Anthony
Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.
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Hey, ya threads still goin' I'm a bit of a forum noob and don't know how to put quotes in and such, but this is a response to Niki's response to me. (also I ain't read past that point yet)
Think I was mostly expressin' my frustration at trying to talk politics with the less inteligent of my liberal friends, which in hindsight wasn't entirely relevant to this thread and I apologize for that. Anyway Kwicko threw it right back at me twice, basically establishing the point (that was probably more or less already established) that those kinds of folks exist on both sides and I didn't respond after that cause I agreed.
I don't like it went discussions turn into childish label matches, but I do enjoy intelligent discussion with folks who disagree with me. I'm somewhat of an anthropologist at heart and I love to hear about what people believe and think and why the believe it when it's different from me and I usually view losing and argument like losing a chess match, an opportunity to learn more.
Anyway, just wanted to clear that up. I don't think usually the liberals are right but that doesn't mean I ignorantly dismiss everything about them on spite.
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
I don't like it went discussions turn into childish label matches, but I do enjoy intelligent discussion with folks who disagree with me.
Hi THT, welcome. I wish you all the best with that sentiment, I felt the same way initially, like I would learn something from people here, but so far it's been a mixed bag. People seem to come here to give and not receive, if you know what I mean, and once a thread gets derailed, forget it.
Take this subject for instance, almost 200 posts and nothing much has changed, people are entrenched, 200 posts of building those walls higher and higher.
One of the ironies I see is that the folks who are for the building of the COMMUNITY CENTER in general speak of "we shouldn't give into FEAR" and yet to me it's FEAR they are giving into. They seem stuck on the idea that everyone, Every Single Person who thinks it's a bad idea MUST hate Islam or think all Muslims are terrorists. If you aren't an Islam-o-phobe then you are "eccentric" or "lack conviction," and must be discounted. It's like they have to hang the same ugly mask on anyone that disagrees with their position - makes it easier?
Speaking of dislike, I think they still dislike America a bit, like they're still reeling from a George W hangover, and still feel shame. They were somewhat anti-America under W and they just haven't figured out how to get past it. Now, any behavior that can be remotely connected to Bush-like behavior gives them flashbacks and stirs up those old feelings, makes them afraid that even with Reverso Bush (Obama) things haven't really changed that much.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
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Quote:
It's like they have to hang the same ugly mask on anyone that disagrees with their position - makes it easier?
Speaking of dislike, I think they still dislike America a bit, like they're still reeling from a George W hangover, and still feel shame. They were somewhat anti-America under W and they just haven't figured out how to get past it.
Speaking of hanging your ugly mask on things... Now anyone who defends freedom of religion dislikes America, huh?
AURaptor's Greatest Hits:
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.
Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.
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Hello Pizmo,
You just complained that people assume the opponents in this debate are operating irrationally on triggers of emotion.
Then you explained how your opponents are operating irrationally on triggers of emotion.
Are you poking fun? Having a bit of a laugh?
--Anthony
Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Pizmo,
You just complained that people assume the opponents in this debate are operating irrationally on triggers of emotion.
Then you explained how your opponents are operating irrationally on triggers of emotion.
Are you poking fun? Having a bit of a laugh?
--Anthony
It is ironical isn't it? Sometimes it's like people are pointing and yelling at themselves in a mirror.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
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Hello,
So, I'm afraid of creating an atmosphere of persecution that may lead to a practice of 'rights by convenience.'
What emotion is guiding you?
--Anthony
Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.
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For me it HAS been a mixed bag, but I’ve still learned a ton from the rational posters and now learned how easy it is to ignore those who have nothing to say but to spew attacks. I should have used the other post as my example, which post filled me with pride at how people were staying on point and making such wonderful points. In THAT one, those who come in from the right with snarks far outweighed the rational posters, but that’s neither here nor there.
Pizmo, if you expect debates here to change minds, then I can certainly understand your frustration, but am sad at your misunderstanding. No discussions will change most people’s minds; mine hasn’t been changed, but it’s been modified in many ways by a point here or there, and I appreciate it. Also, threads often get off track then someone brings them back and, if The Uglies aren’t around, it goes on to be an interesting thread. Not always, but more than 50% of the time, from what I’ve observed.
And no, it’s far from fear we feel who believe the COMMUNITY CENTER should be allowed to be built. It’s the fact that we can see (I believe more clearly) that it’s the right thing to do in that it upholds the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the principles upon which this country was founded. Examples: The failure to do that is something with which we disagree; the concept that “NO government sticking their nose in our lives” coupled with the lack of logic of government deciding a woman’s right to choose. “INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS!” contrasted with the idea that it’s perfectly okay to demand a citizen’s papers or throw them in jail if they don’t have them until someone else can prove they’re a citizen. “PROPERTY RIGHTS” contrasted with the fervent willingness to throw them out the window when it’s something with which those screaming it don’t agree. “SOCIALISM!” contrasted with “Don’t touch my Medicare!” “EQUAL RIGHTS!” happily tossed out the window when it’s something with which they disagree. “The CONSTITUTION IS TO BE REVERED!” unless it’s something they want to amend or take out. And on and on; the dichotomy makes their cries sound foolish, while the other side tends to uphold all that we are built on, even when it’s uncomfortable. THAT’s why we defend their right to build it; the Beloved Constitution upholds both property rights and religious freedom, yet the foaming at the mouth to ignore BOTH of those is sad to see.
The other reason isn’t fear either, it’s the recognition that stopping the building of the COMMUNITY CENTER sends a message which HELPS the terrorists people are so afraid of in their efforts to recruit, by giving a perfect example that we ARE intolerant and filled with hate, precisely what they accuse us of. It shows our basest nature, it goes against everything America SAYS it stands for, and it’s shameful and counter-productive.
The fact is that the only reasons the COMMUNITY CENTER is being reviled is FEAR that it will be used as a weapon (which it can’t...9/11 was hatched in HAMBURG, what makes people think terrorists would NEED somewhere that will be under serious scrutiny when they could hatch their plans in secret ANYWHERE else?), that it’s “insensitive” (which only makes the sore of 9/11 deeper insofar as people can’t become acquainted with REAL Muslims, can’t utilize facilities which they would find useful, can’t increase their understanding) and the mere fact that it’s a MUSLIM building (which reflects the growing anti-Islam prejudice being fanned by people with an entirely different agenda).. None of those are valid or logical, but we can only watch helplessly and speak up against the fear, hatred and true INSENSITIVITY this movement represents.
Another lie is that anyone believesQuote:
Every Single Person who thinks it's a bad idea MUST hate Islam or think all Muslims are terrorists. If you aren't an Islam-o-phobe then you are "eccentric" or "lack conviction," and must be discounted. It's like they have to hang the same ugly mask on anyone that disagrees with their position [/quo
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With regard to the dichotomy of RWA thinking, of which I gave examples, I again offer:Quote:
http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf
A filing cabinet or a computer can store quite inconsistent notions and never lose a minute of sleep over their contradiction. Similarly a high RWA can have all sorts of illogical, self-contradictory, and widely refuted ideas rattling around in various boxes in his brain, and never notice it.Quote:
http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf
Authoritarians’ ideas are poorly integrated with one another. It’s as if each idea is stored in a file that can be called up and used when the authoritarian wishes, even though another of his ideas--stored in a different file-- basically contradicts it. We all have some inconsistencies in our thinking, but authoritarians can stupify you with the inconsistency of their ideas. Thus they may say they are proud to live in a country that guarantees freedom of speech, but another file holds, “My country, love it or leave it.” The ideas were copied from trusted sources, often as sayings, but the authoritarian has never “merged files” to see how well they all fit together.
The arguments made against property rights and freedom of religion in this debate, as well as the most recent post, reflect this perfectly.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off
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The problem with a lot of attempts to discuss or debate anything, is the prevalence of a type of conditioning I call Loopthink.
You see, when they're "in the loop", it really is pointless to even try logic, reason and debate, because no cognitive thought is actually occuring.
Loopthink is a set of conditioned reflex responses that work in a fashion similar to a BASIC programs GOSUB routine loop, in how they bypass the actual thought process to a more or less pre-programmed subroutine.
Usually triggered by a word, phrase or thought-concept.
And therein lies the problem, any actual cognitive process is mostly bypassed by that loop you see, and it takes a real heavy spike to knock that sideways off the rails, which is one reason I tend to get explosively nasty to someone who's gone into loopthink, cause it's the only way to knock them off the rails and make them THINK, sort of like a BREAK key.
Worse, this crap is addictive cause it tends to be trained in early by the parents and reinforced by local school/community, to the point where completing the loop kicks off that good ole dopeamine reward, just like a doggy feels happy once you've trained em to do tricks and they pull one off - the constant repetition and praise cycle creates that reflex.
That's been used in more ugly ways too, the LEAP program was about conditioning that cycle for violent action, which included the stimulating rush of adrenals and suchlike on top of the repetition and reward sequencing.
Thing is, it's not a railroad so much as a path of least resistance, like a rut the thought patterns fall into, even in the face of overwhelming evidence or logic, they'll run that way cause, again, it's a conditioned reflex, and no damn accident either.
It's possible to run against it, but that's a lot like breaking a drug addiction or cult programming in that firstoff, going "off the rails" is scary and uncomfortable for them, AND will include the ridicule and probably retaliation of most of their social circle on top of it, and the lure is very powerful - especially when they will seek out reprogramming via immersion in the message of whatever conditioner they favor (talk radio, a certain talking head, church, etc) in a bizarre form of confirmation bias to avoid ever having to face a truth that is more ugly than the fear and discomfort and alienation....
That they've built their whole existence on lies.
Most folk, even fairly strong of will, hit that point and make a rapid U-turn and dive right back onto the rails as fast as they can, they can't hack it - it's been said that one of the cruelest things you can do to a person is destroy their illusions, and maybe that is so...
But when those illusions turn them into monsters, or supporters of monsters, that's a bridge too far, unacceptable, unforgiveable.
And of course, the further down THAT road they go, the harder turning back becomes because how can a person possibly live with the knowledge of such responsibility for inflicting horror on thier fellow man, and at the time ENJOYING every second of it ?
And so they cling to the illusion, no matter how tattered and broken it becomes - it's the perfect self-perpetuating trap, because not only do they cling to that conditioning, they inflict in upon their children.
And if it fails to take, or stick - yes, they will even turn on and begin to hate thier own kids, which is, at the root of it, how at least a quarter of those kids in the hellcamps wound up there.
Nor is it any one ideology, religion, political faction or what have you that uses this trickery, since children are conditioned TO accept it in grade school in order to make them easy to manipulate - John Taylor Gatto has tons of very well-referenced information on that, and that it was and has always been, completely intentional.
But it occured before that, since it was the concept and foundation of most religion, the ability to teach people to bypass rational thought with conditioned thought-loop responses, seriously, WATCH a sermon from most beliefs and you can
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
RiverL, I was not dismissive of you, but of the article and video. I don’t have to read the article to know what it says. Merely “But because a comeuppance is due the arrogant elites whose undisguised contempt for the great unwashed prevents them from conceding a modicum of serious thought to those who dare oppose them." is sufficient to tell me it’s going to be the usual buzz words and talking points. You’ve heard the same sort of slurs from the left, surely you dismiss them out of hand?
I didn't imply that I thought you were dismissive of me, so no clarification is necessary. I knew you were dismissing the Krauthammer piece and the video on face value, largely out of your ideological instinct to do so. You quoted the end of the article which was a prediction and a summary, but admittedly you didn't read the case presented in the entire article to arrive at that position. I didn't consider what Krauthammer said to be slurs, more like an expression of so many people's anger with the way the country is going now, along with the arrogant way that Liberals label any opposition to that horribly wrong direction as being racist, or any of a host of other bad labels they apply at will to suit any situation for themselves.
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Nikki - Congratulations - a 1200+ word rambling extra crispy post from you and you managed to misattribute, misquote, misinterpret and misunderstand just about every thing I posted. I think you actually came up with new ways to be wrong.
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Pizmo, if you expect debates here to change minds, then I can certainly understand your frustration, but am sad at your misunderstanding. No discussions will change most people’s minds; mine hasn’t been changed, but it’s been modified in many ways by a point here or there, and I appreciate it.
This is the only thing I agree with you on. You definitely come here with a closed mind, quoting you again: "No discussions will change most people’s minds; mine hasn’t been changed." Says it all, there's only Niki's way.
Please review Frem's post about people living inside loops.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
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Awww,we can't let this one die, can we?
Frem: Right on. I'll try to remember your "pre-programmed loop", it's a perfect description.
RL, there is NO way I dismiss anything out of any "ideological instinct". I don't work on instinct, which in some cases differentiates me from the knee-jerk response some on left and right express. I read at least the beginning of most links, and if I think they have something valid to say, I read them all.
WHEN I come up against things like "arrogant elitists”, “great unwashed”, “undisguised contempt”, "modicum of serious thought". and “because a comeuppance is due the arrogant elites whose undisguised contempt for the great unwashed prevents them from conceding a modicum of serious thought to those who dare oppose them” at the very BEGINNING of a piece, of course I don’t read further; the bias is blatantly obvious!
Would you continue to read if you came up against “Those Republicans who are inciting the Tea Party crowds at these outdoor 'klansmen' rallies...or “Sarah Palin and the entire Republican Party are the real terrorists here-encouraging people to reload and arm themselves with bricks” or "These Republicans may as well be caged animals in the Zoo, they are acting irrationally” or “Republics are idiots, programed robots for buzz words and have no concept of how government is run”, would YOU read any further?
I wish you’d give me the benefit of at least some intelligence and leave off the slurs...they’re certainly better than what you used to do, but comparing remarks to me with remarks I read in other posts, they’re only relatively better.Quote:
isn’t much better.
Liberals label any opposition to that horribly wrong direction as being racist, or any of a host of other bad labels they apply at will to suit any situation for themselves
Painting all liberals with the same politispeak derrogatories doesn't mean that all of us fit the same mold, or that even the MAJORITY of us fit the aspersions with which you vilify us.
I TRY to find articles which aren’t slanted, or at least aren’t slanted so obviously and present FACTS within them. I realize you despise anything liberal or Democrat rather violently; despite that I check out links you post, but invariably they offer little but denigration of both, in which I have no interest. I’m sorry you can’t accept that, but I think my reasons are valid.
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Pizmo, I fail to see where I misunderstood what you wrote...unless it was sarcastic.
You said it was "fear" that made us want to allow the COMMUNITY CENTER to be built. I explained how it was not fear at all and told you what it is for me and I believe most people who don't oppose it.
I explained how "Every Single Person who thinks it's a bad idea MUST hate Islam or think all Muslims are terrorists" is untrue.
You said we "disliked America", which I refuted and told you how I feel about America, which I've heard others express as well (including thoughtful Republican friends who don't call me "terrorist" or "Anti-American" for my beliefs).
I would add that no, we're not "afraid" that Obama is Bush Lite, we recognize it and we speak up about it. So we have nothing to "fear" from that, because we agree.
How any of that "misquotes", "misinterprets" or "misunderstands" anything you wrote is beyond me. They are YOUR words I quoted, and if somehow it was possible to misunderstand or misinterpret them, I would appreciate you clarifying.
I did misspeak in saying my mind hadn't been changed. I meant about the COMMUNITY CENTEr; my mind has been changed and I have learned many things on many other subjects.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
It's like they have to hang the same ugly mask on anyone that disagrees with their position - makes it easier?
Speaking of dislike, I think they still dislike America a bit, like they're still reeling from a George W hangover, and still feel shame. They were somewhat anti-America under W and they just haven't figured out how to get past it.
Speaking of hanging your ugly mask on things... Now anyone who defends freedom of religion dislikes America, huh?
Silly Kwiksdraw - freedom of religion is one of the great founding principles... even if I believed that (I don't) do you really think I would make such a simple error? Your desire to connect the two most disparate and damaging dots is kind of a bad habit.
Obviously, I shouldn't have casually tossed that stink bomb out there without e-splainin' just a little more. Mea culpa,
Remember the W years? I actually thought he started out pretty good, the country was on a knife edge right after 9/11 and an unsteady response from 42 would have been the next worst thing. But he was steady and delivered a solid speech and I was impressed (first time) - he won a lot of points from me for that.
Then the next 6 years happened and we invaded Iraq. I disliked our foreign policies, I was not keen on our domestic policies, I did not like the people surrounding our central government, and I really lost faith in our POTUS. You can love something and not like it very much and that's how I felt about the US - I have very high expectations for the country and it seemed under Bush we were headed in the wrong direction.
So yeah, you could say I disliked the US, kind of like when your home team makes stupid trades and hires an idiot coach and plays like shit. "Come On!"
So, did you like America then? Remember the frustration, the human rights violations? Remember how it seemed like it might never end? That's what I think some people tapped into on the mosque silliness, "not again."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Pizmo, I fail to see where I misunderstood what you wrote...unless it was sarcastic.
You said it was "fear" that made us want to allow the COMMUNITY CENTER to be built.
No I didn't. I said you feared those that opposed the MOSQUE THING, that you feared it was more of the same Bush era human rights issues. Read my post to Mike.
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I explained how "Every Single Person who thinks it's a bad idea MUST hate Islam or think all Muslims are terrorists" is untrue.
You misquoted here, you left off the first part, ""They SEEM stuck on the idea that everyone, Every Single Person who thinks it's a bad idea MUST hate Islam or think all Muslims are terrorists." It does change the meaning. I said that because using the common sense argument and quoting many others from many different walks of life who also thought: "it's a bad idea" were being ignored. Also, see my quotes from HK below that generated that thought. Maybe you didn't see those earlier, it's a long thread.
You also misspoke:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Another lie is that anyone believesQuote:There ARE those who believe that, it’s shown even here much less in the larger world, but nobody thinks for a minute that it’s for the reasons you stated. The preponderance of overblown misstatements presented as fact is one thing which makes arguments totally irrelevant. More accurate would be that many believe those who are against it have been manipulated to believe things that aren’t true (like that it’s a “mosque”) and are reacting out of that propaganda. On the side in favor of letting it be built, there ARE those who believe those against it are exactly what you described, but I think they’re no more a majority than those who DO reflect fear and hatred...and I don’t know anyone who thinks that makes them “eccentric” or lacking in conviction. Lack of conviction is the LAST thing I think about those opposing the COMMUNITY CENTER!
Every Single Person who thinks it's a bad idea MUST hate Islam or think all Muslims are terrorists. If you aren't an Islam-o-phobe then you are "eccentric" or "lack conviction," and must be discounted. It's like they have to hang the same ugly mask on anyone that disagrees with their position
Lie? I quoted HK: "If Islam doesn't = terrorist, then what in god's name is the problem with an Islamic Center ANYWHERE? And Pizmo, you may have some terribly ECCENTRIC and personal reason for opposing this building, but if you look at Kaneman's "face of the GOP" the reason is clear as summer rain: Islam = terrorist."
HK: "However, the difference between "opposing" a thing and thinking something is "a bad idea" seems mostly a matter of conviction."
More error:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
You said we "disliked America", which I refuted and told you how I feel about America, which I've heard others express as well (including thoughtful Republican friends who don't call me "terrorist" or "Anti-American" for my beliefs).
Where the fuck did I call you a terrorist????
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I would add that no, we're not "afraid" that Obama is Bush Lite, we recognize it and we speak up about it. So we have nothing to "fear" from that, because we agree.
How any of that "misquotes", "misinterprets" or "misunderstands" anything you wrote is beyond me. They are YOUR words I quoted, and if somehow it was possible to misunderstand or misinterpret them, I would appreciate you clarifying.
I did misspeak in saying my mind hadn't been changed. I meant about the COMMUNITY CENTEr; my mind has been changed and I have learned many things on many other subjects.
You're even pointing out to yourself where you misspoke.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
So, I'm afraid of creating an atmosphere of persecution that may lead to a practice of 'rights by convenience.'
What emotion is guiding you?
Thanks for asking Anthony and not assuming.
Emotion? Shouldn't that be kept out of politics?
"I'm afraid of creating an atmosphere of persecution that may lead to a practice of 'rights by convenience.' "
I'm not afraid of that - I think we're too loud and opinionated of a society for us to fall into that. But I guess that's all in the eye of the beholder.
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Okay, Pizmo. Originally you wrote Quote:
Nowhere in there does it say those in favor of the COMMUNITY CENTER fear their opponents, only that it’s fear we’re giving into.
One of the ironies I see is that the folks who are for the building of the COMMUNITY CENTER in general speak of "we shouldn't give into FEAR" and yet to me it's FEAR they are giving into.Quote:
You didn’t say that, you just said it was fear they were giving into. I interpreted that as fear of the Muslim world because of the connection to Muslims, so my response was appropriate for what you wrote. Left it wide open to interpretation, and nowhere did you say we FEARED the opponents of the COMMUNITY CENTER, just what it seemed to you was how people in favor of the COMMUNITY CENTER saw them.[
I said you feared those that opposed the MOSQUE THING, that you feared it was more of the same Bush era human rights issues
Nonetheless, I still disagree about those opposing the COMMUNITY CENTER; for myself, it’s certainly not fear, more disgust and dismay. I don’t actually think those people will get into power—some of them might and can certainly make a mess of things, but when it comes to Muslims, I thought Bush was decent, and am dismayed that ever since we got a Black man in office, the right has played up the “hate ‘the other’” card for all they’re worth. It sickens me, it doesn’t scare me, and it’s not why I am in favor of the COMMUNITY CENTER...I’m in favor of it because I believe it’s RIGHT.
I’ll accept that the caveat “seem” changes the meaning. But it’s still questionable in my mind. you continued on making a flat statement: Quote:
So I’ll change that to “it SEEMS like you’re saying...” And my response was that there ARE people who reflect your description exactly. I don’t know about “eccentric”, and I certainly question “lack conviction”, given that’s the opposite of what I’ve observed. But “islamophobe” is something which some people opposed to the COMMUNITY CENTER certainly do represent. So I’ll grant you the “seem” and let it go at that.
If you aren't an Islam-o-phobe then you are "eccentric" or "lack conviction," and must be discounted.
No error: You DID say we disliked America, twice even. I didn’t say YOU called me a terrorist, I have heard it over and over from the right, especially during Bush’s time in office: that anyone who disagreed with his policies was anti-American; anyone who argued for the rights of detainees or such were “terrorist sympathizers” or just plain terrorists. They also say we hate America, which, lessening the accusation to “dislike”, doesn’t change the meaning much.
As to my “misspeaking”, in actuality I didn’t...I didn’t CLARIFY that I was talking about my mind not being changed about the COMMUNITY CENTER...that’s not misspeaking. That you misunderstood it to mean in all ways is a simple mistake, it’s semantics, neither person’s fault.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
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