Another 'Religion of Peace' moment, brought to you by.....yep, ISLAM!
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 12, 2025 15:05
VIEWED: 23038
PAGE 3 of 25
I have elsewhere voiced disdain for fundies, and noted that they offer a more immediate threat to my delicate atheist sensibilities. Jihadists represent a more remote, if existential threat. Still not much cause for comparison, and fundies don't threaten peace so much as my patience.
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People who are HONEST about America might find a thought that crossed my mind interesting:
We have backed terrorists.
We have affected countries negatively via surreptitious measures.
We have assassinated people in power.
We have invaded many countries.
We have "bought" governments which abuse their populace to this very day.
We have killed "zillions" of people.
We have overthrown governments.
We have committed atrocities.
We are, to date, the only country to have actually USED a nuclear bomb on another country.
Now, given that, who exactly has attacked us back on our own soil?
Japan, a la Pearl Harbor. Once.
A bunch of countryless terrorists, a la 9/11, etc.
I find it interesting that for all the hair-tearing and screaming about "Islam", comparatively little has been done to our country compared to what we've done to other countries for decades...and we're a YOUNG country!
Today, in 2010, extremists who have no country are attacking many other countries. It's not been like that before; previously wars were fought between nations. But even then, religion was behind, or was used as an excuse for, a lot of wars between countries; catholicism, christianity, were used in their own way, as were others. The Crusades were all about "destroying the infidel", wiping them off the face of the earth, but we keep forgetting that, because it was "way back when" and even tho' we are born of stock which perpetrated those atrocities, hey, that's not us NOW!
Nazis wiped out how many millions? How many of us believe Christianity didn't have its little finger in that; maybe not overtly, but hatred of "the other" was there, persecution of other religions was there quite clearly.
We could get entwined in whether Islam is to blame for Muslim extemists (it's not), whether America's actions around the world contributed to 9/11 (they did), how many Muslims Christianity killed in the Crusades (who knows?), etc. etc. Nobody will change anyone else's mind.
The seemingly DESPERATE need to convince people that Islam is the religion of the devil is sad and somewhat interesting, but that's about all. My goodness, for such an incredibly rich, powerful country, so many of us sure shake in our boots and piss in our pants over a bunch of extremists who wouldn't stand ten seconds against us in battle, have been under our thumb for generations, so are fighting back in the only way they can, ugly, evil, vicious as it is.
This happened in Somalia, right? When is the last time anyone in America gave a rat's ass what was happening in Somalia (except our government, which recognizes a country without a government which is a danger on the high seas and a hotbed of terrorists)? Somalia is wide open and insane; there is no law, no government, and people are killing one another in the streets. So a bombing is a sign of Islam??? Wow, you must really be scared...or desperate to make others scared, not sure which.
Wasn't someone here shocked to learn that some people blame Islam for 9/11? Here you go, right here among us, those who firmly believe Islam is the religion of the devil, that all Muslims are evil people bent on destroying others. Shocking, isn't it?
Not really, it's the way an awful lot of America is behaving lately. How strange that such a fear-monger who used fear to gain power as Bush was able to quiet people down in their anti-Islam hatred, but no sooner do we get a Black, Democratic President than people start being ENCOURAGED to view all Muslims as the enemy, Islam as the religion behind everything evil in the world. I mean, these guys are GREAT manipulators; "don' wan' no trouble while OUR guy is in power, but by gawd, let one of "them" get in power, and we'll bring the house down around your ears!"
Be afraid...very afraid...but not of Muslims or Islam. See who the real enemy is; he walks among us.
Just sayin'.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna T
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
however to some around here that proves nothing.
When the premise is "All Muslims are EEEEVVVIIIIILLLL" then you are correct - it proves nothing, because it is utter bullshit.
If it's to prove some Muslims are bad, well... it's pointing out the fucking obvious.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Oh, Cav, BEAUTIFULLY SAID!Quote:
Very good! Muslim extremists can cause problems in this country and others, but they are not a POWER, they will never have the money, political power or any other to overrun the country. They fight us the only way they know how, individually. It's horrible. It kills innocents. But if one wants to point out every bad thing done by Muslim extremists what about all the bad things done by dictators and all the others who use nationality, philosophy, religion or whatEVER tool they can grab to commit atrocities? Would it have been any more than passing interest if a bunch of Hindus tossed a bomb in Pakistan (they did, you know...)?
Which is more of a threat to me personally, Christian fundies or Muslim fundies? Christian fundies, obviously, because they are far closer to taking control of this nation and persecuting all and sundry than any Muslim group will ever be.
That's been the point all along: yes, Islamic fundamentalists seek to rule the world, bring the decadent West to heel, but it's a gorram pipe dream. Good freakin' luck with that, Osama.
Time was, the evil commies wanted the same thing and they ran themselves straight into the ground. What the makes you think the Muslims will have better luck than the USSR in its heyday??? (Cue the "They're out-breeding us!" argument...)
It's not gonna happen--I don't know what is wrong with y'all that you think we're in such terrible danger from the Muslims. Yes, Muslim terrorists can kill people and blow shit up, but that's it. Without an invading army and military superiority, they got nothing. At best, they could convince us to get the hell out of their backyards (which is a good idea anyway), but they are never gonna run this country (except in the psychological sense of making us turn this country into the racist dictatorship their propagandists believe we already are).
That's why they're not the threat y'all want to pretend they are. That's why folk bring up Christian fundies who are a real threat to the peace of this nation.
No. The fear-mongering is focused on Islam; fear it, fear them, hate it, hate them...and of course Obama MUST be Muslim, so fear and hate him, too, 'cuz guess who that'll put in power?
Not that any will, but how about asking who all this fear and hatred benefits? THERE is your enemy.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off 
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Actually, some are denying the existence of Muslim extremists,
Prove it, chump.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Just to add, when I started reading this thread the first two to respond were Byte and Story, and I thought their posts pretty much summed up any needed response. That was about when the first post I put up occurred to me, but I forgot to add to that my thanx to Byte and Story for summing up all that really needed saying. The thread could easily have ended right there.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off
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Mincing, my response toQuote:
would be
Until there is an organized, world-wide Christian movement that uses violence as a tool, with the goal of spreading Christendom everywhere at the edge of the sword, such comparisons are feeble and silly.Quote:
There is far more violence in the Bible than in the Qur'an; the idea that Islam imposed itself by the sword is a Western fiction, fabricated during the time of the crusades when, in fact, it was Western Christians who were fighting brutal holy wars against Islam. All monotheistic religions, and not just Islam, have their fair share of violent and intolerant scriptures, as well as bloody histories. Thus, whenever Islam's sacred scriptures—the Qur'an first, followed by the reports on the words and deeds of Muhammad (the Hadith)—are highlighted as demonstrative of the religion's innate bellicosity, the immediate rejoinder is that other scriptures, specifically those of Judeo-Christianity, are as riddled with violent passages.
More often than not, this argument puts an end to any discussion regarding whether violence and intolerance are unique to Islam. Therefore, before condemning the Qur'an and the historical words and deeds of Islam's prophet Muhammad for inciting violence and intolerance, Jews are counselled to consider the historical atrocities committed by their Hebrew forefathers as recorded in their own scriptures; Christians are advised to consider the brutal cycle of violence their forbears have committed in the name of their faith against both non-Christians and fellow Christians. In other words, Jews and Christians are reminded that those who live in glass houses should not be hurling stones.
How come we keep on asking the same question, [about violence in Islam,] and don't ask the same question about Christianity and Judaism? Jews and Christians have engaged in acts of violence. All of us have the transcendent and the dark side. … We have our own theology of hate. In mainstream Christianity and Judaism, we tend to be intolerant; we adhere to an exclusivist theology, of us versus them. An article by Pennsylvania State University humanities professor Philip Jenkins, "Dark Passages," delineates this position most fully. It aspires to show that the Bible is more violent than the Qur'an:Quote:
So Joshua [Moses' successor] conquered all the land: the mountain country and the South and the lowland and the wilderness slopes, and all their kings; he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord, God of Israel had commanded.
In terms of ordering violence and bloodshed, any simplistic claim about the superiority of the Bible to the Koran would be wildly wrong. In fact, the Bible overflows with "texts of terror," to borrow a phrase coined by the American theologian Phyllis Trible. The Bible contains far more verses praising or urging bloodshed than does the Koran, and biblical violence is often far more extreme, and marked by more indiscriminate savagery. … If the founding text shapes the whole religion, then Judaism and Christianity deserve the utmost condemnation as religions of savagery.
Several anecdotes from the Bible as well as from Judeo-Christian history illustrate Jenkins' point, but two in particular—one representative of Judaism, the other of Christianity—are regularly mentioned and therefore deserve closer examination.
The military conquest of the land of Canaan by the Hebrews in about 1200 B.C.E. is often characterized as "genocide" and has all but become emblematic of biblical violence and intolerance. God told Moses: [quote[But of the cities of these peoples which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, but you shall utterly destroy them—the Hittite, Amorite, Canaanite, Perizzite, Hivite, and Jebusite—just as the Lord your God has commanded you, lest they teach you to do according to all their abominations which they have done for their gods, and you sin against the Lord your God.
As for Christianity,
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I fail to see how the historical naughtiness of Jews and Christians, or the violent idiocy in their books, excuses current muslim misconduct. Islam was spread by the sword (see generally the Balkans, Spain, the Indian subcontinent). The same is true of Christianity. The latter, however, doesn't seem to have many adherents trying to spread it by the sword in 2010.
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I wasn't saying it justified anything. Remember, I am the Godess of Perspective. I speak merely to the fact that considering Islam an evil religion discounts the equivalent evils done by other religions. Ergo, it is a fallacy.
As a bit of a refutation of your statement, please see my new post on "Let's compare", rather than have me go into it here. There are more than a few adherents of Christianity today still trying to spread it in ways you might not approve, and saying "now is more valid than then" is kind of a weak argument. Please take a look at said post, which offers the suggestion that Islam has FOLLOWED and paralleled Christianity in their actions throughout history. Two sides of the same coin: religious extremism.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off
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Eh, well. To be completely, completely fair, the Turks conquered themselves a gigantic empire at about the time of the Crusades, and you did have some Moorish incursion into Spain as well.
The Crusades were brutal, arguably more brutal than the initial takeover of Jerusalem warranted, but there HAVE been Islamic nations that grew by conquering people, and they did kick out people who believed different.
Most religions on earth I think are guilty of this. I want to say maybe Buddhists didn't, considering they preferred to send out traveling missionaries in small batches as opposed to armies, but then again some of those missionaries, like Ta Mo (using his Chinese name 'cause the Indian name escapes me), could have single-handedly taken OUT an entire army by themselves.
Ah, here he is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_mo
Talk about your badass preacher-man. That guy, right there. Founded KUNG FU in the form of temple boxing. And a Buddhist.
Anyway, I'm actually kind of with mincingbeast and the others here. I'm atheist, but even though I find a lot of Christian American ideas in America somewhat quaint, I don't actually see that Christians are any real kind of power group or that we are in danger of a Christian takeover. The religious right thing as I see it are a group who someone goes to if they want to rile up a response, not a group they take orders from. Notable exceptions are certain very Christian generals we've had over in the Middle East who do see this as a new Crusade. But their leash is generally held by the neo-cons. Slightly more concerning are the intelligence agencies that seem to share a similar mindset, but I'm not sure that isn't Christianity so much as it is power-mad paranoia.
One place where the Christian right is cow-towed to is about homosexuality and abortion, so in that case you might be justified in being wary, but otherwise politically they don't have much say so.
And it's also not the best analogy to compare somewhat extreme American Christian groups who might withhold aid if you don't convert (jerkasses) to very extreme Muslim terrorist groups who will blow themselves up in a town square (flat fucking nuts).
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