Three disasters, one cause: profit
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Monday, June 14, 2010 21:15
VIEWED: 6422
PAGE 4 of 8
Quote:Hey Signy,
Originally posted by SignyM:
One economic meltdown, caused by banks, lenders and insurances creating money out of thin air for maximum profit.
The other environmental, caused by an oil company cutting corners and refusing to credibly prepare for disaster.
The third health, caused by for-profit treatment of sick people, bleeding our economy dry and killing people in the process.
So keep sucking up to those nice corporations, folks! They only have YOUR interests in mind! (heh heh heh)
What's the difference between an authoritarian and an anti-authoritarian if they both think of the world in the same exact terms, only the authoritarian likes what he sees and the anti-authoritarian doesn't? We need a new paradigm. I don't see a few hundred profiteers running the world for good or ill, I see thousands upon thousands upon millions of wage earners and underlings, y'know, folks, just trying to get by, trying to get through the day, implementing these corrupt policies, day in and day out, not questioning, not interfering.
The problem isn't that the world is run by sociopaths, the problem is that the the world is run by fear. The sociopaths just do REALLY WELL in an environment of fear. They don't want things to change, that's for sure. And if we wanna believe that the sociopaths run the place, they aren't about to argue with us--as long as you and I continue believing that we're powerless against all that incredible and amazing power of theirs, they're good to go.
From where I sit, blaming the world's problems on a few hundred (?) CEO's is exactly like blaming the world's problems on "the terrorists." It goes deeper than that--in both cases. Sure, they're all bad men doing bad things, but all that effort we put into fighting them, eradicating either of 'em, doesn't change the paradigm, it just shuffles the deck and when the smoke clears we're right back where we started.
I say fear and alienation in the guise of comfort seeking and consumerism, moralities based on punishment and reward, the institutionalized abuse we accept as "education," are far more instrumental in bringing about these horrendous tragedies than mere ideology. "Profit," after all, is just a motive.
The folks you're talking to, the usual suspects, those people worship "profit" as a religion and all we do when we blame our troubles on "profit" is spit on their holy of holies. So, o' course, they cry "commie"--it's just their version of "infidel."
It's kinda like you're an atheist arguing not that God doesn't exist, but rather that God is a really, really bad guy. We gotta move outside the Authoritarian paradigm if we wanna make a dent in authoritarian thinking--even if it's just our own!
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
HKC: Thank you for that. It puts the real problem into pretty sharp focus, and is a point that bears repeating. As you pointed out, we keep going after "the bad guys" - this week it's BP, last year it was Goldman Sachs and AIG - but we never go after WHY they're the bad guys. We clear them out, and the next bad guy in line thanks us and picks up where those guys left off.
So how do we stop the cycle?
Mike
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor
This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Uh huh. THIS from the guy who insisted that the UN approved the USA's invasion of Iraq, who kept referring to an old UN Resolution, all the while stubbornly ignoring the fact that UN resolutions supersede each other?
You're blind, on all 3 accounts. But you don't care. Your mind is made up,regardless.
Who was convinced... convinced I tell you!.... that Saddam's WMD posed a credible threat, and who crowed over each decades-old bit of scrap as evidence that Saddam was a threat which required immediate invasion?
Who kept insisting (despite OMB's own records, which date back to the early 1900s) that Federal tax decreases increased revenues? ("I don't know about inflation adjustment and all that")
Who clung to the fact that the economy was ON FIRE, even as I and others were telling you it was in bad shape and going over the cliff? (Well, I guess in a sense you were right: It WAS "on fire", but not in the way you meant!)
Rappy, your blind faith in.... whatever it is you put your blind faith in.... is legion. We ALL know how you cherry pick your facts, ignore reality, and plow on despite the many warning signs from the evidence around you... warning signs which we TRY to clue you in on, but which you resolutely refuse to see. As far as I'm concerned, your feeble name calling is just another example of "Rappy refusing to address reality".
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
HK, I'm with Kwicko, good points.
Profit and ambition themselves are not bad motivations... Within reason, like a number of things. Even competition is not necessarily bad.
It's why I proposed keeping capitalism around in some form or another above, it's not for everyone, so we do need other options, but some people do cotton to it. Maybe as more options come around and people's mindsets change from beat the other guy into dust, it'll become less popular, maybe not and it'll always be around in some capacity. At any rate, we need to get off a completely capitalist system, into something more flexible where people have choices, and the best way to do it is gradually.
When the way someone competes is shortsighted, ruthless, and cutthroat, with no mind for consequences around them that they cause, that's when it's gone too far. I think all of us, even the strongest capitalists here, barring political message, would decry when a business behaves unethically or irresponsibly. Even AURaptor is upset with BP, though he's also very angry with Obama (surprise).
The question is, is that a necessary consequence of the capitalist system itself (Sig would say yes), or do the other factors you mentioned create the monsters as well as their frightened peons to serve them?
Many of these higher ups it could be argued come from dynasties. They've been groomed. So long as they continue to get into power (and the system is set up to only allow THEM into power), they'll continue to set the standards for ineffective education and punishment-based morality, as it's in their interests to do so.
Change the general population, what changes in the long term? Most people in the population are aware that mindless consumerism is not a path to happiness. Some others are even aware that finding a partner to "complete you" and marriage and childbirth leading to debt slavery isn't necessarily a path to happiness either, guff about "twue wuv" not withstanding. (marriage and childbirth aren't BAD, and can lead to happiness, but it's also a way that people allow themselves to be controlled and taken advantage of). So there's already an element out there that sees through it all, willing to work outside the system, but not big enough to make changes. Say you change enough of the general population, what then? What about the part of the general population so indoctrinated that they can't and won't change? I guarantee they'll struggle and resist you, because they'll be terrified of YOU, they don't know what to do without someone telling them, and you're a threat to the people controlling them.
I'm not sure the general population is the real source of the problem, which is why people focus so much on CEOs and politicians. You want to cut off the head. Problem is, you're right, it's a hydra.
So how do you stop new heads from spawning? I think Frem's got some of it, in that the real monsters undergo a lot of abuse and emotional nglect. But I think there maybe be something else there, too. In America, emotionally neglected kids shoot up a high school rather than become a CEO/politician, not unless they're already FROM a certain social class.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Been away, so in one fell swoop:
Let me note for the record that a CEOs now have "golden coffins", as well as golden parachutes and golden commodes. It used to be only kings had that. Also, BP has bought up the google term "oil spill".
Quote:This has bearing on how money is used to create a new morality. (see below)
BP isn't too fond of people using search engines to check up on its Gulf of Mexico misadventures. The company has bought up some Google and Yahoo phrases in order to scuttle efforts to find news reports using such words.
Quote:SIGNY: Thank you for asking. I'll get to that later.
PIZMOBEACH: So what's your plan?
Quote:SIGNY: And you think most of us aren't poor now? And getting poorer?
MOOSE1942: So what do you suggest governmental control of everything? That's the quickest way to poverty.
Quote:SIGNY: Bull, and disproved many times over. Economists have looked it over, and found that Fannie and Freddie combined made up less than 10% of the problem, specifically because THEY were required (by law) to make sound loans. I'm willing to go into depth on this if you are, because I looked at the whole meltdown in great detail.... the explosion of poorly-secured loans not only by banks but by lenders like Countrywide, the dissolution of the Glass Steagal Act, the creation of Credit Default Swaps (CDSs) as a separate entity specifically designed to be unregulated either as loan OR as insurance... Care to go toe-to-toe on this one? 'Cause I guarantee, if we do this on a fact-to-fact comparison, you're gonna lose.
MOOSE: I'm going to let you in on a little secret Signy. Nobody is looking out for you. You need to look out for yourself. Trusting ANYONE or ANYTHING completely is bad Ju Ju.The government had a HUGE hand in the economic meltdown. Look up Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac. Both government run lending institutions that really screwed us over.
Quote:SIGNY: You're being illogical. On the one hand, you say that industry is golden. On the other hand, you blame to government for being too business-friendly. And- finally- you toss in an off-the-wall conspiracy in which somehow government is NOT stepping in to save industry from its own worse excesses... in order to discredit industry. My head is spinning! What ARE you saying?
MOOSE: Environmental? Nobody knows what caused the explosion yet. I haven't ruled out sabotage. Plus president Obama gave the Deepwater Horizon a safety award a couple of months before the incident. Plus there are currently MILES of oil barrier sitting in a warehouse but the government after inspecting it and knowing it would help contain the oil so it could be skimmed up decided not to buy it. No explanation was given. The government is letting the oil hit the shores because IMHO they WANT the crisis.
Quote:SIGNY: So now you're saying the government isn't involved ENOUGH in health care?
MOOSE: Health? Insurance companies have a big portion of the blame that's for sure, but so do people defaulting on their bills. As well as... wait for it... the government. Many doctors don't want to take Medicaid because the government isn't paying what they've promised to pay.
Quote:SIGNY: Given your incredibly confused logic which is twisted whichever way it needs to be in order to reach a "BLAME GOVERNMENT" conclusion... I'm not surprised!
MOOSE: So what is a one of the common threads among all three of these problems? Government.
Quote:
GEEZER: And the nominally Socialist nations are that much better? The Soviet Union failed altogether. China has massive pollution, government-funded ecological and humanitarian horrors such as the Three Gorges dam project, weekly mine disasters, and pretty much no protection for workers. The Social Welfare states in southern Europe are finding that they can't support their social programs on the taxes they collect from the capitalists. Present a better alternative, please. One that actually has a chance of working in aNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
HK
Well said, I think I'll ditch my own analysis in favor of yours. Of course the organizations that hold people are just made up of people, it doesn't matter what form of organization they choose. But if you really want to end the fear and ignorance, the best cure for dark shadows is light. We need tl shine a little more information on the problem. Make sure people aren't afraid of new information, and that people aren't filtering our information, or if they are, make sure that we know how and to what end they filter it, and make sure that we have multiple sources so we can get different filters, and cover the gaps of what has been filtered out.
Stepping outside of their power structure and economy might be a another tack, but don't think of it as commie, because I assure you, the poweres that be, the people called by some here "right wing authoritarians" a term I find personally offensive, please, I thought we agreed on this, TPTB, anyway, they most definitely OWN communism. Honestly isn't anyone wondering why china is a commie capitalist lovefest? Well hey, wasn't the USSR? Hey, isn't this always the case. Gee, I wonder why that could be.
Instead, I give you the freegans. I propose something close to this, not a cooperation that involves tanks rolling into town forcing mindless assimilation on the slave-masses.
Quote:
SIGNY: I disagree. Starvation kills an awful lot of people, and that has more to do with uneven distribution of capital than anything else.
Sig, this just simply isn't true. Famines are caused by govts as part of genocidal programs. I'm pretty sure this is damn close to 100% of the time. It's like looking for a natural desert or a non economic war, a peaceful empire or an anarchist state. Sure, the small random example may exist, but it's dwarfed by the gargantuan trend in the other direction. It's sort of like saying that BP is an oil cleaner upper, because, y'know, it is. But that would just imply that they weren't a more major mess maker, which wouldn't be the case.
Avoiding the part where blaming wealth disparity is a lot like blaming the victim here, more to the point, it's simply not the case. Famines result from govt. Interference in food production and distribution networks, and almost all the time they know damn well exactly what they're doing which is why they set up the systems in the first place, to prevent the people from having oral control over their own food. This is why I say, hey, forget the firearms, go to the farms. No one is coming after you with guns, historically, it's very unlikely. Starve you out, well, that's something they might try. Like they did in russia and the Ukraine, and Ireland, and the USA, and all over east Asia, and even more in Africa, and they're still doing it in Africa, right now. In the Sudan, in ethiopia, somalia, and Zimbabwe, and its looking suspiciously like that's what's going on in Gaza. Hey, it's what Clinton did in Iraq, and it killed more people tha the war. Because that's what famine does, it kills more people than war. And when you look into it, and look real long and hard, I'll tell you what you'll find: you'll find that famine *is* war.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
"Famines are caused by govts as part of genocidal programs. "
Hello,
Some famines are simply caused by poor planning. No genocidal scheme. Just planning X and getting Y.
--Anthony
"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor
"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
DT: war and famine often go together... but not always. You generally don't hear about non-violent starvation bc it's not newsworthy to corporate media. There was a HUGE famine in NW Brazil some decades ago... millions starved while working the boss' plantations. Children even today are starving to death all over the world without any conflict. Look at Haiti. Farmers in India are committing suicide, having entered into pacts with Roundup-Ready. The so-called Green Revolution (brought to you by Monsanto TM) only benefits the companies which created it.
Starvation occurs because people don't have access to what they need to grow food: enough land, water, fertilizer, and (yes) security. There was a rather long story about hunger in Africa; the FIRST issue is that the land is divided equally among all boy children, leading to smaller and smaller and smaller plots which were not owned by the people who actually worked them (women).
The SECOND problem is - believe it or not- lack of markets. How does the saying go? When the crops don't fail, the prices do. Farmers in good years should be able to sell to government granaries at good prices. (Farmers themselves don't have the capacity to store grain from year to year... it goes moldy and becomes infested.) This is the government's fault per se, except that it DOESN'T intervene when it should. Quite honestly, this is the IMF/ World Bank plan, same as Haiti.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Signy: ™ is typed easily in Windows by holding down the "Alt" key and hitting "0153" on the number pad. No need to superscript it, which didn't seem to take.
On a Mac, you just hit "Option-2".
Mike
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor
This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Sig
the problem is that all the things you state actually do occur, and yet are not the cause of the problem. I do study the subject a fair amount because i farm and all my neighbors also farm. Theres a reason were not big on the communism. Actually, there are a fair number of folk who are on subsidies, but thats largely agribusiness, and dont get me started on that...
but the simple fact is that the sheer numbers of death of the major famines of the world come down to one thing:
Government run food distribution.
Keep food local, and keep govt as far away from it as possible, and everything will be fine.
BTW, when crops fail, prices soar.
I'm sure that there are examples of what you say being the controlling factor, I'll look into the Brazilian famine, do you have details?
I hope you acknowledge the threat of centralized food distribution. Major famines that were preceded by the institution of government run food distribution have resulted in millions of deaths on several points in history, as the system inevitably fails. It's such a bad idea, that I have to think that I have to at least consider the possibility the people who set it up have genocide as a goal.
Here are some
Stalin with Trotsky and Kruschev
Mao
Mugabe
Mengistu of ethiopia (also eritrea, somalia, and tigre) things didnt improve much with Zenawi
Hoover
Clinton with complacency of Saddam Hussein
I also have to ask myself: Is this what Netanyahu has in mind for Palestine?
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME