Three disasters, one cause: profit

POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Monday, June 14, 2010 21:15
VIEWED: 6422
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BYTEMITE

Sunday, June 13, 2010 4:31 PM

And again, we're not a democracy. An oligarchy is probably closer to what we have in practice.

Quote:
BTW: There is a book which details how working groups manage the problems of the commons- in one example how Swiss herder cooperatives manage common-pasture rights. The title and author escape me but I will try to find it. The key to problem resolution is direct communication. However, I'm not sure if this model applies to problems which have more than a monkey-sphere of actors, so more procedures would prolly have to be created.

Why not? Even in government, you only have a monkey sphere of actors involved, the problem is they're making all the decisions and they've got all the power and they're more than a little in bed with the corporations they're supposed to regulate.

The only way this does work is if every monkey sphere has approximately equal say so in the decisions they make. Which to me means no government.

Take down the corporations, you take down the government. This at least we agree on. They're propping each other up.

GEEZER

Sunday, June 13, 2010 6:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I see we're playing the game where you make things up and claim them to be true

Oh. Hi Mike.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CITIZEN

Sunday, June 13, 2010 8:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Oh. Hi Mike.

Hi Rap.

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If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

KPO

Sunday, June 13, 2010 9:41 PM

Quote:
First, few European social welfare states have higher GDP per capita that the U.S. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp_percap-economy-gdp-per-capit
a

The U.S does very well in these tables for a country of its size I've always thought (all the countries above it are very small), so there's something in U.S-style capitalism.

But looking at social mobility statistics (or any social statistics: prison populations, health/obesity, abortions/teen pregnancy etc.), there is something in European style social-economic policies.

Irresponsible spending is irresponsible spending, whether Southern EU welfare states do it, or Ronald Reagan and George W Bush does it...

I personally think Germany (West) is a good model: excellent public/social services, and the social justice that comes with that: but still a competitive, vibrant, diverse economy. Note that the statistics are skewed against the West German capitalist model because of the large burden it has had of absorbing the weak socialist East German economy.

So I personally pine for something like Germany. Citizen as a Guardian reader, probably pines for something like Sweden. I'm not sure what liberals in Sweden pine after.

Heads should roll

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, June 14, 2010 2:58 AM

Why not jack the open-source community's social dynamic and apply it to government ?

-F

SIGNYM

Monday, June 14, 2010 7:46 AM

You mean, a meritocracy? Problem is, there is no accountability to the general public. In addition, the coordinators (those who take care of version control and basic philosophy) are actually few and far between. Linus STILL has a big say in how Linux is implemented.

But maybe if you give me some examples of how you see that working, I could give it some more concrete thought.

CITIZEN

Monday, June 14, 2010 10:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
The U.S does very well in these tables for a country of its size I've always thought (all the countries above it are very small), so there's something in U.S-style capitalism.

It does, but I'd argue that's it's more to do with the fact that the US was the only industrial power completely untouched by the Second World War at home. So while everyone else was rebuilding, the US was the only country with a manufacturing base capable of supplying materials to rebuild with. The US has been riding that wave ever since, and now that countries are recovering from the War it's lead is diminishing. I'd also say that if all the GDP is really held by the top 1%, and everyone else gets next to nothing, and can't hope to improve their social standing, then GDP per capita is pretty much completely meaningless.

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
I personally think Germany (West) is a good model: excellent public/social services, and the social justice that comes with that: but still a competitive, vibrant, diverse economy. Note that the statistics are skewed against the West German capitalist model because of the large burden it has had of absorbing the weak socialist East German economy.

East Germany was Communist. Communism and Socialism are equivalent in the same way that Corporatism and Capitalism are equivalent. And I agree mostly, but West Germany has more regulation of it's private sector than Britain or the US, and plenty of Social Programs as well.

I'd be perfectly happy with a German system, I worked out there for awhile with British Forces: if I can get 3 litre bottles of Vodka and 85 pence packs of cigarettes on NAAFI rations again I'll be even happier. There are a fair few cultural differences between us though, which could change the outlook. People in Germany dig snow out from the pavement in front of their homes because they think it's their responsibility, not because the Government tells them too for instance. Or how long do you think a cigarette vending machine bolted to a lamp post would last on a British street?

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
So I personally pine for something like Germany. Citizen as a Guardian reader, probably pines for something like Sweden. I'm not sure what liberals in Sweden pine after.

I don't read the Guardian, actually. If I read any newspaper it's usually the independent.

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If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

CITIZEN

Monday, June 14, 2010 10:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Why not jack the open-source community's social dynamic and apply it to government ?

-F

It's not exactly the root of all perfection. It works great for FOSS for the most part, but there's also times it doesn't work well at all *cough*The GIMP*cough*.

I've heard plenty of times when someone has made a bug or problem with a GPL program known, they're shouted down because the developers "don't owe them anything". I think that would be a step down rather than up from democracy where the politicians at least have to throw a few breadcrumbs the electorates way on occasion.

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If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

BYTEMITE

Monday, June 14, 2010 2:52 PM

>_>

I use the GIMP. It's not the best ever, but it's functional.

And free. Monetarily and hassle-wise.

CITIZEN

Monday, June 14, 2010 3:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
>_>

I use the GIMP. It's not the best ever, but it's functional.

And free. Monetarily and hassle-wise.

Lots of things aren't the best ever, but Functional. Windows for instance.

The Gimps interface is backwards, tools don't do what they should (Move doesn't move things, for instance), there's glaring omissions (no layer groups for one), and it's a pig of a program to use on a platform with a single desktop. To be fair the next release is supposed to be addressing those issues, but it's taken years for the developers to listen to the people who use it to get it done.

Not in the least it's support from graphics tablets is awful, on Windows I found myself having to set up my Watcom every time I started the damn thing, on Linux it doesn't like moving from the painting area to the menus. Every other program I use, Closed or Open Source, just works with graphics tablets, so I don't buy that it's really that hard.

You point out these issues and the Developers either tell you their way is better, they owe you nothing, or "you'd realise why it works that way if you looked at the code". It's a brilliant example of the wrong attitude in FOSS development.

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If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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