450 posts IS a worse crime than wanting to kill us .
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Friday, May 22, 2009 14:59
VIEWED: 29463
PAGE 10 of 46
Quote:and
I suspect that there is a set of circumstances in which even the hardest of resolve will crack.
Quote:Let's get rid of the question "Is waterboarding torture?" for the moment and focus on your last statement. Basically Finn, you're willing to "crack" people, and in the context that you expressed... by any mean necessary. Boiling oil, if need be. Electric shock. Pulling fingernails. Right? As long as doctors are there to control the infection, revive if necessary, keep the person alive and available for further questioning. Because it's all about "effective interrogation", right?
The life of the suspected witch or infidel was forfeit as soon as the trial started.
Where do YOU draw the line?
And why?
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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.
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Oh, and just so it doens't get lost in the shuffle: RAPPY
Quote:"False, baseless portrayal" from the guy who accuses "the left" of WANTING thousands of people killed? Of saying that we want chaos?
Your false, baseless portrayal of me ( an many conservatives ) is a great mental block to you, and also serves as cover so as to avoid havig to deal with real, actual issues of substance.
C'mom, rappy! SURELY you understand that you are at least as guilty of false, baseless portrayals as anyone else here! Shit, man, you STARTED the whole thread with one! Admit your part in this. You spew so much one-sided shit and venom that nobody takes you seriously anymore.
Man up.
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Rappy? Is anybody home????
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Quote:That’s not what I said. Nothing I’ve said even suggests that. It seems to me that inflicting injury is more likely to result in shock then diminished resolve. I think I've been pretty clear in drawing a line between extracting confessions and interrogation.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Let's get rid of the question "Is waterboarding torture?" for the moment. Basically Finn, you're willing to "crack" people, and in the context that you expressed... by any mean necessary. Boiling oil, if need be. Electric shock. Pulling fingernails. Right? As long as doctors are there to control the infection, revive if necessary, keep the person alive and available for further questioning.
And by the way, this is an example of you telling people what their opinion is.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:Coercion is most effective when it is used to cause exhaustion, I suspect.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
And what are those circumstances? How can the torturers know whether the victim is telling the truth or a lie? Do they just keep torturing on and check later? Do they stop each time to check and them start again? Do you increase the intensity of the torture further and further each time a lie was proven?
Kind of a non-answer.
Are you saying that sleep-deprivation is a good kind of torture or are you saying torture them until they can't stand it anymore (which is silly because they could well start lying early and keep lying when they are echausted)?
And where and how does verification come into this?
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Quote:They did know it. They whole process was designed around sending the suspect to either heaven or hell.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Yes. But they didn't necessarily know that.
Quote:It’s not arrogant at all. I explained to you how they are different. You don’t have to accept the explanation, but asking me to explain the difference over and over again because you don’t like the answer I gave you is not conducive to discussion. So I don’t know where else we can go with that line of questioning.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Don't you think that's kind of an arrogant thing to say? You insist there is a difference, so you can kindly explain to me what that difference is. You're not even trying to explain, you just keep stating that there is one. I'm asking HOW they are different.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Hell, Frem, it's EASY to control shock. You're putting up artificial barriers of "Can't be done" when in fact it CAN be done. Just keep a couple of cooperative doctors around with epinephrine and glucose.
It seems to me that inflicting injury is more likely to result in shock then diminished resolve.
So, eliminating the (non)issue of "shock" creating an ineffective interrogation context why would you not use boiling oil, electric shock, and fingernail/ toenal extraction?
Quote:Apparently not because I'm not the only one wh'o' asking for a clarification. So please explain it because so far the only differences that I got out of it was (1) one is intended to kill and (2) too much pain causes shock, which creates an ineffective response.
I think I've been pretty clear in drawing a line between extracting confessions and interrogation.
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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.
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Quote:You’re asking me about details of the trade. I’m not an interrogator, so I don’t know how detailed I can explain the process. If you query me on the details of basket weaving you’ll get just as vague a response.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Kind of a non-answer.
Quote:Ah, so there is a distinction between interrogation and extracting confessions. The first, sleep-deprivation, would be a method of interrogation designed to weaken the will of the suspect. The later would be a means of extracting confessions designed to force the suspect to say what you want to hear.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Are you saying that sleep-deprivation is a good kind of torture or are you saying torture them until they can't stand it anymore (which is silly because they could well start lying early and keep lying when they are echausted)?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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I disagree that they knew they would necessarily die. Why else were there all these "tests" to see if someone was actually a witch? The theory was that you'd withstand torture if you were innocent. A theory that soon found its critics even in those times.
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It’s not arrogant at all. I explained to you how they are different. You don’t have to accept the explanation, but asking me to explain the difference over and over again because you don’t like the answer I gave you is not conducive to discussion. So I don’t know where else we can go with that line of questioning.
Okay, honestly. I'm not trying to be irritating, but I have not noticed you explaining the difference. Maybe I didn't catch it from your words.
So, I guess, in the interest of clarity I will request you to be so kind and restate in very specific terms the exact difference is between torturing for a confession and torturing for information. Please.
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Quote:See Finn? You think you're being very clear, but you're not. Clearly!
Okay, honestly. I'm not trying to be irritating, but I have not noticed you explaining the difference. Maybe I didn't catch it from your words.
But as I gather from your statements- It all goes back to INTENT. "Interrogation" is anything that you do to break a person with the intent of getting the truth. That COULD include electric shock, or boiling oil, if in the eyes of the interrogator it was necessary or helpful. The one thing it COULDN'T include is death, because at that point no more information is available. (Unless of course the interrogator thought that all useful information had been extracted and simply didn't want the victim to go squealing to the press later.) Whereas "extracting a confession" is anything you can do to break a person with the INTENT of getting them to tell you what you want to hear!
Right? So thank you for the clarification! (You moral relativist, you!)
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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:No more so then the question of killing in self defense. You’re killing another person to benefit yourself in that case? How do you feel about killing in self-defense?
Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:
If it's not a moral question of harming another person to benefit yourself than what it is?
There is an immediacy and fear of death that we're disconnecting on here. I don't feel torture coercion is appropriate in interrogation for even terrorists who threaten to bomb my hometown.
I do feel it might become necessary to defend my own life with equal fierceness if a real and present physical attack is currently upon my person or a person near me.
While I'm here, I'll just add the loss of life in war, suicide bombings, accidental deaths, and genocide are equally upsetting to me.
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Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
www.thatcostumegirl.com
www.thatweirdgirl.com
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