450 posts IS a worse crime than wanting to kill us .
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Friday, May 22, 2009 14:59
VIEWED: 29463
PAGE 9 of 46
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:I’ve already told you how they are different. The US doesn’t use, to my understanding, any coercive interrogation that is solely intended to extract confessions and/or kill the suspect. They aren’t the same thing.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Which makes them different how?
But they did not torture to kill. They tortured for information along with confession.
The killing might have happened accidentally. It was not the intent. They were going to be publicly executed afterwards.
And I still don't understand how torturing for a confession is different from torturing for any other kind of information. How is it different? Do you think people respond that differently to "Say you are a witch" than they do to "Say where the bomb is"?
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Quote:Depending on what's being targeted, it might not be okay either way.
Originally posted by SignyM:
That's kind of what I'm getting at. If you had simply said that it's worse to kill a lot of people with a car bomb than it is to waterboard a single person I would agree. OTOH it seems to make a difference to you WHO is doing the killing, and for what reason. It's not okay for "terrorists" to kill people with car bombs, but okay for "governments" to kill people with missiles?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Crack is the key word. If one is willing to die, letting go of sanity for the cause is no biggie.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I suspect that there is a set of circumstances in which even the hardest of resolve will crack.
I don't know that you've taken that into account.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Let's get rid of the question "Is waterboarding torture?" for the moment. Basically Finn, you're willing to "crack" people, and in the context that you expressed... by any mean necessary. Boiling oil, if need be. Right?
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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:I suspect that there is a set of circumstances in which even the hardest of resolve will crack.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
So if the information extracted is just as likely to be false as during non-torture interrogation, why bother? You win nothing. I sincerely doubt that pain is going to motivate any fanatic to suddenly sell out their ideals when they could just as easily lie and obfuscate, so "penetrating that resolve" doesn't seem like something that would happen.
And what are those circumstances? How can the torturers know whether the victim is telling the truth or a lie? Do they just keep torturing on and check later? Do they stop each time to check and then start again? Do you increase the intensity of the torture further and further each time a lie was proven?
At what point does it go too far and at what point does the excuse of imminent danger run out of time?
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Quote:The whole process was designed to extract a confession. The life of the suspected witch or infidel was forfeit as soon as the trial started.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
But they did not torture to kill. They tortured for information along with confession.
The killing might have happened accidentally. It was not the intent. They were going to be publicly executed afterwards.
Quote:Then perhaps it’s something you need to think about for a while.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
And I still don't understand how torturing for a confession is different from torturing for any other kind of information. How is it different? Do you think people respond that differently to "Say you are a witch" than they do to "Say where the bomb is"?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Let's get rid of the question "Is waterboarding torture?" for the moment and focus on your last statement. Basically Finn, you're willing to "crack" people, and in the context that you expressed... by any mean necessary. Boiling oil, if need be. Electric shock. Pulling fingernails. Right? As long as doctors are there to control the infection, revive if necessary, keep the person alive and available for further questioning.
The life of the suspected witch or infidel was forfeit as soon as the trial started.
Where do YOU draw the line?
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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.
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Quote:Coercion is most effective when it is used to cause exhaustion, I suspect.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
And what are those circumstances? How can the torturers know whether the victim is telling the truth or a lie? Do they just keep torturing on and check later? Do they stop each time to check and them start again? Do you increase the intensity of the torture further and further each time a lie was proven?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Predictably deflective.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Then perhaps it’s something you need to think about for a while.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The whole process was designed to extract a confession. The life of the suspected witch or infidel was forfeit as soon as the trial started.
Yes. But they didn't necessarily know that.
Quote:Quote:Then perhaps it’s something you need to think about for a while.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
And I still don't understand how torturing for a confession is different from torturing for any other kind of information. How is it different? Do you think people respond that differently to "Say you are a witch" than they do to "Say where the bomb is"?
Don't you think that's kind of an arrogant thing to say? You insist there is a difference, so you can kindly explain to me what that difference is. You're not even trying to explain, you just keep stating that there is one. I'm asking HOW they are different.
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