450 posts IS a worse crime than wanting to kill us .
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Friday, May 22, 2009 14:59
VIEWED: 29463
PAGE 13 of 46
Part of Gino's cite:
Quote:That include electric shock (widely used by the Gestapo), sleep deprivation, stress positions, hypothermia, waterboarding, and chemicals:
So torture hasn't really disappeared in the modern age. What have disappeared are forms of torture that leave marks. The police, military investigators, and governments in democratic societies can count on the press and people watching. They know that if a prisoner can't show any marks of torture, people are far less likely to believe his or her story. So as societies have become more open, the art of torture has crept underground and evolved into the chilling new forms - often undetectable - that define torture today.
"substance P and neurokinin A must work in combination to account for pain"
www.ninds.nih.gov/news_and_events/press_releases/pressrelease_pain_pep
tides_032598.htm
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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.
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So, speaking of batsh*t crazy (sorry AnthonyT, I just gotta grind this in one more time. Then I'll stop, I promise) this is just a refresher about how this whole thread started. From our very own batsh*t crazy rightist!
Quote:
If there was any doubt that the Left is bat shit crazy, and cares purely for 1 thing and 1 thing only, there's no doubt any longer. The Left's ridiculous, phony and 100% fabricated indignation over non-torture torture is nothing more than a purely partisan, politically driven side show intended for one purpose only - to get more power by demonizing anyone who stands in their way. They don't CARE that Islamo fascists are going to try to kill 1000's more. That's what the Left wing leadership WANTS ! They want to cause crisis after crisis after crisis, and as Rahm Emanuel says, do what could not be done otherwise, w/regards to taking more and more power. From illegal immigration, to gay marriages, to terrorist attacks, the Left is hoping and praying ( well, not literally, as they don't really buy into God™ ) to create such chaos in this country, they'll have no other choice than to remake it in their socialist Utopian template.
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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.
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AgentR
Quote:
And where and how does verification come into this?
There's the rub, apparently, AgentR - from all I've been able to determine, it don't.
Which means despite all the outraged denials, the general purpose was indeed to extract "confessions", especially in light of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed "confessing" to acts we not only knew he didn't commit, but acts he could not HAVE comitted.
Muchlike american police, there's no investigation worthy of the name, they just pinch the guy they GUESS did it, and squeeze him till he "talks" - and as of late the innocence project and DNA evidence have shown without a doubt how completely worthless those kinds of under-duress "confessions" really are.
TWG
Quote:
Not really. In my mind, torture or extreme coercion or whatever we're calling it is not acceptable at any point. I expect tenacious and continuing investigations into the threat. I want people out there on the ground looking for evidence and clues and leads. I want people in the offices following the communication trail. I want the inside men to learn key info. I'm not going to give up when the interrogation returns little or no usable information. I'm also not going t resort to harm. I am going to keep looking and verifying.
The best defense may be a good offense but that doesn't apply in national security. We can't attack someone because they might hurt us. We can't torture someone because they might know something. We prepare. We learn. We build intelligence. Then we either stop the threat through legal(national and international law) means or defend ourselves. The best defense is preparedness.
That's how it's SUPPOSED to work, TWG - but they don't do it that way, in part because all their on-the-ground personnel are too busy *creating* terrorist plots (WTC 1993, Ft Dix Six, Etc) that they can get high profile media-circuses out of to justify their incompetent existance and hopefully score more funding and harrassing politically unreliable americans, while tapping THEIR phones.
They have jack shit for people who really understand the languages and culture they're dealing with since none will work for them given the obvious bent towards demonising that whole culture and people instead of those who twist it to excuse the harm they do - and as such have become so politicized and incompetent that they've been unable to effectively insert agents for YEARS because of the mindset of their personnel - can you really see someone like, say Rappy not blowing their cover ?
That's why I am so irate about it, that for all that money and their constant assault on our freedoms, these alphabet crooks as not only useless for their intended purpose, they're as much or more a threat to us and our way of life as the goddamned terrorists.
Kwicko
Quote:
In other words, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about any more than the rest of us, whom you accuse of not knowing what we're talking about.
Err, Mikey ?
I do claim some small knowledge of the subject, mind you, and while it's your choice whether to give that claim credence or not, bear it in mind when I say that aggressive interrogation of this type DOES NOT WORK.
And now imma drop the bomb on the bastards claiming it didn't happen.
"There were five cases of detainee deaths as a result of abuse by U.S. personnel during interrogations"
And where is this from, you ask ?
FINAL REPORT OF THE INDEP. PANEL TO REVIEW DOD DETENTION OPERATIONS
PAGE 13.
Read it for your fucking self.
http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=7663
Sixty-six known cases of abuse.
One third known to be connected to interrogation.
Five deaths absolutely confirmed to have caused in this fashion.
Twenty some more under investigation.
And that was in 2004.
Yes, Virginia, we DO torture people to death.
And then we lie about it.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'll ask again, since you keep avoiding the issue in the other thread...Quote:
Since you insist that waterboarding isn't torture unless it's done to someone in uniform, let me put a scenario to you:
Say the Iranians have tried and convicted a 30-year-old Iranian-American woman - an American citizen not serving in the military or the diplomatic corps - on charges of spying. Now, since she's clearly NOT a soldier, nor wearing the uniform of any recognized armed forces, then they are clearly within their rights to waterboard her, are they not? I mean, they can use whatever means necessary to "break" her, since she is, in essence, a "terrorist" - at least in their eyes, and according to their law.
So you're totally okay with them doing this, yes?
By the way, her name is Roxana Saberi. She was a former contestant in a Miss North Dakota beauty pageant, holds two masters degrees, and is a graduate of Northwestern, with a degree in journalism.
Iran has a golden opportunity here. They can use the exact same methods that the U.S. has used, and we can't say shit about it, OR they can gain international favor by NOT torturing this girl, and then they end up looking more civilized than we do. Either way, it doesn't work out too well for us...
By the way, your thread title is misleading. "Interrogating" those who want to kill us isn't a worse crime than them wanting to kill us. TORTURING those who want to kill us actually IS a worse crime than them wanting to kill us.
By the way, I'm not going away. Like it or not, you're going to have to face this question.
Is waterboarding acceptable when it's done to our people by people we don't like or agree with?
Finn says it's okay to do it to others if it will save lives. So I ask if it's okay for Iraqi insurgents to capture and "harshly interrogate" OUR soldiers if they think that it will save IRAQI lives to know what we're doing and what we're planning.
And is it okay for the Iranians to "harshly interrogate" an American journalist if she's been tried and convicted of syping?
I'll wait, but your continued refusal to address the issue really isn't helping your case.
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Quote:He has no case, so much so that he can't even make something up so he can say you have no case.
Originally posted by Kwicko:
your continued refusal to address the issue really isn't helping your case.
The laughing Chrisisall
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I can't just leave this SO CLOSE to an even 100 posts! (Call me Monk!)
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THERE! I feel better!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I can't just leave this SO CLOSE to an even 100 posts! (Call me Monk!)
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THERE! I feel better!
125 now.
Make that 126.
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:He has no case, so much so that he can't even make something up so he can say you have no case.
Originally posted by Kwicko:
your continued refusal to address the issue really isn't helping your case.
The laughing Chrisisall
Chris: Ssssshhhh... I was humoring him, lulling him into thinking that he DOES have a case.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
It is patently absurd for anyone to believe that skin color, hair thickness , or any way one defines "race" can be shown to hold any level of superiority. Race is bullshit, and any moron who clings to such superficial guides to gauge another person is nothing but a simplistic , useful idiot. I get so damn tired of seeing the RACIST lie perpetuated by the so called enlightened Left.
Race is bullshit. There is a common ground for every ethnic type to co-exist peacefully...fruitfully. Sadly, everyone is fighting like Hell to perpetuate the "superior race" card.
We can't take one step into the future until we realize that we are all equal.
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