South Ossetia: Defense against ethnic cleansing, or invasion? (Turns out, Georgia fired missiles first. it was self defense)
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, August 23, 2026 15:28
VIEWED: 18520
PAGE 11 of 28
Quote:The US killed far more people expediting World War II. (And half a million is a bullshit number, but that's neither here nor there.)
Originally posted by chrisisall:
This is where you lose me: explain to me please how a half million Iraqi civies dead to topple Saddam's regime is a good trade off...I will paint you and others as indifferent to human life if you can't offer anything better than 'he would have become the new Hitler' or any of that nonsense...see, decisions about the economy, education, infrastructure all pale next to military decisions- if you're going to cause deaths, it HAS to be a GOOD REASON, not merely a differing 'belief'.
To send peeps to their next existence because yeah, well, everyone was SAYING he had WMD, I swear... just ain't good enough, by any reasonable standard.
Death is kinda final, see, so it provokes a stronger reaction than closing a school or something.
Struggling Chrisisall
Arguments for and against the war have been presented on this board. I can’t believe that you aren’t away of all of them. You simple choose to accept superficially simple argument and hate those who don't, in order to protect yourself from the ambiguity of war. Such a way of thinking is nothing new - it has been going on for centuries and ironically is often the reason for sociopolitical divisions that often lead to war.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:I'm aware of them, I just don't buy into all of them. You yourself have presented the best arguments for slamming Iraq (IMO), but they still seem somewhat sketchy and even apolgetic to me.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Arguments for and against the war have been presented on this board. I can’t believe that you aren’t away of all of them.
From what I knew back then, I didn't buy the WMD thing, I didn't want to expand into Iraq, I wouldn't have used 9-11 to push the Patriot act, and all has unfolded as I have foreseen (unfortunately).
Oh, and I was cavalier with that number, it's more like 100,000- a tenth of a million, not a half. My bad.
Corrected Chrisisall
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Quote:I don't need to "justify" not agreeing with you. I just don't, isall.
This is my point. This is the way you justify, not agreeing with me
Quote:Well, for someone who claims to care about human life you find a lot of acceptable reasons to kill. So I have to wonder how much do you care about human life? How much is it worth to you, and what are you willing to exchange it for, exactly? For example, do you believe in the death penalty?
by painting me as uncaring of human life.
ETA
AFA reasons for or against war: Although you acknowledge that projecting the possible consequences of going to war v not going to war is fraught with uncertainty, I have yet to read an acknowledgement from you that ANY of our "interventions" was a mistake, no matter how many lives were lost or how unclear the goal. (Vietnam comes to mind, but I could also point to most of South and Central America, large parts of the ME, Phillipines, and Indonesia.) To you, it's all good. Or if not good, it's **gets out the Magic Eightball** hazy at best. So are you saying that our military policy has always been correct, that we have never made a mistake and killed lots of people for no good reason?
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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Quote:That’s true. You don’t, but you still do. That’s why there‘s this:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:I don't need to "justify" not agreeing with you. I just don't, isall.
This is my point. This is the way you justify, not agreeing with me
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, for someone who claims to care about human life you find a lot of acceptable reasons to kill. So I have to wonder, exactly how much do you care about human life? How much is it worth to you, and what are you willing to exchange it for?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:I don’t fault you for disagreeing with the Iraq war. I have said many times that there are lots of good reasons not to support the Iraq war. I fault you for using support for the war as a justification to demonize as murderers those that don’t agree with you.
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:I'm aware of them, I just don't buy into all of them. You yourself have presented the best arguments for slamming Iraq (IMO), but they still seem somewhat sketchy and even apolgetic to me.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Arguments for and against the war have been presented on this board. I can’t believe that you aren’t away of all of them.
From what I knew back then, I didn't buy the WMD thing, I didn't want to expand into Iraq, I wouldn't have used 9-11 to push the Patriot act, and all has unfolded as I have foreseen (unfortunately).
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:I am merely trying to do something that you claim I'm not doing: I'm trying to understand you. But when I take an idea of yours for a test drive I ram right up against another idea of yours. You value human life. But, not. Or, sometimes, as long as it doesn't conflict with some other values. Which is taking an idea to an extreme to justify violence.
That’s true. You don’t, but you still do. That’s why there‘s this
My God, man! How do you even think{???
*grabs head*
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dizzyisall
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Quote:That‘s some dishonest crap. I have never put forth the idea that I am uncaring of human life. You aren’t trying to understand me or take any opinion of mine for “test drive.” You are imposing upon me an opinion designed to demonize me.
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:I am merely trying to do something that you claim I'm not doing: I'm trying to understand you. But when I take an idea of yours for a test drive I ram right up against another idea of yours.
That’s true. You don’t, but you still do. That’s why there‘s this
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Hey, to me if you're caring of human life you will take care of it. It's not how you feel, it's what you do that counts. So, what have you done that shows that you care for human life?
uncaring of human life
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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Quote:What have you done?
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Hey, to me if you're caring of human life you will take care of it. It's not how you feel, it's what you do that counts. So, what have you done that shows that you care for human life?
uncaring of human life
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Wwhere did this article come from, Participant? Because it's really atrocious. Just wrong. Examples:
They essentially invaded South Ossetia and installed a rather brutal military government.Hardly. There were clashes in the early 90s that hurt both sides, and neither side was blameless, but since then the Georgians have stayed out. Even though they didn't want to.
It's true they won't give Ossetia independence (which I think they should), but the Georgian government and military have had no authority and little presence within Ossetia for the past decade and a half. Ossetia is like the Wild West, Georgia claims to own it, wants to own it, but in reality they have no rule there.
It should also be understood that contrary to the 30 years old CIA report that is being circulated, Georgia is now over 60% Moslem, with Moslems controlling the government, and South Ossetia - which is surrounded on three sides by Georgia - is over 80% Orthodox Christian.Nope. Not even close. Has this writer actually been to Georgia? I have. More than once. It's almost entirely Orthodox Christian. Every little village has at least one Christian church, sometimes more. There are a few Muslims in Georgia, but not many at all.
I guess the easiest way to villify a nation these days is to call it Muslim, hmm? Might want to do some research first, or you just sound like an idiot.
Comes last Thursday and the Georgians attack the Russians in South Ossetia. Once again, they are trying to isolate and grab those two oil terminals.There are no oil terminals in Ossetia. The idea is proposterous - the Georgian government can't carry on any kind of engineering project is the area, because they can't even enter it. The oil and gas pipelines that run from Baku to the Black Sea pass through the southern part of Georgia, just south of Borjomi. This is nowhere near Ossetia.
BTW, you'll note that the Russian troops didn't stop at securing Ossetia. They passed south into Georgian territory, to Gori, and from there into the Borjomi gorge. Gori and Borjomi are Georgian cities, through and through. The people there aren't part of Ossetia and don't want to be. This is the root of the whole "over-reaching" charge.
The Russians come in to evacuate the Russian wounded and put fresh troops in place to keep the Georgians and South Ossetians from tearing up Russian cities and killing more Russian civilians in their own country.Again, ridiculous. Fighting between the small Georgian military and the much smaller Ossetia militia - if they even have such a thing in any organized way - is hardly big enough to "spill over" into Russia. Ossetia lies in the Greater Caucasus, a mountain range silmilar to the Alps or the Rockies, and it isn't densely populated at all. This whole idea of Russian cities getting torn up in the fray is pure fabrication.
The Russians tried to send in relief supplies (for all parties) and the Georgians tried to sink the unarmed, civilian transport ship.OK, now we're getting laughable. Transport ship? In the greater Caucasus? And what body of water was it sailing on?
Perhaps the writer is referring to the blockade the Russians set up in the Black Sea. That is no where near Ossetia.
Maps. They're not hard to find.
Because there is strong reason to believe that the US has been aiding the Georgians in the fight (just over 1,500 "advisors" on the ground from "Blackwater" that are demonstrable, and massive shipments of US arms and ammunition for the past 18 months)And what reasons are these? Any evidence at all? Where would all these US troops be materializing out of? Don't you think the press in the states and in Georgia might have noticed?
Still the Georgians have not completely ceased their offensive. They recently began shelling a Russian column that was withdrawing from South Ossetia along the only serviceable road in the region. They waited until the column was dead in the middle of the town of Gori before opening fire.Again the writer shows a complete lack of knowledge
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