It's called "torture" Mr. Bush
POSTED BY: Ghoulman
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 15:55
VIEWED: 24944
PAGE 5 of 14
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The answer to your question is ... no, scientists do not (or, at least they shouldn't!) determine the truth by the the reliability of the source. If they do... and there are too many examples where this has happened... then they don't understand the scientific method.
Thanks for the courteous response.
I heard a story on NPR the other day about scientific studies to prove that one drug is better than another, but the studies were paid for by the winning drug. On closer investigation, the studies turned out to be skewed. So I think even in science, the source of your information is still improtant.
In the end, of course, you draw your conclusions your way, I'll draw mine my way. You're into science, I'm into research.
And I never thought this torture didn't happen. I just want to clarify the difference between what did happen and what is anti-American propaganda. People are so fond of blaming everything on the "liberal media". But there is no way that article was published by a legitimate American newspaper. I still want to know who did publish it. It's just my way to be very thorough. I tend to not believe anything unless I know where the information comes from.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
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Quote:
Nicely put. And weird... these powerful leaders are the people AURaptors is protecting. Why?
Why? I'll tell you why. For starters, because of the SPECIFIC example you just gave. I said there WERE abuses, and those who committed those should and WILL be punished. Yet you want to gloss over the fact that there is no fake moral outrage by the media and the world opinion over....
- REAL murders, tortures , mutilations ..etc, that DID occur in Saddams prisons. Any deaths which occured while prisoners under US care were trying to escape, incite riots and attack guards. Sorry Charlie, but there was no systematic, routine dismemberments going on here. Just photos of chicks hauling around hooded naked guys on dog collars. Maplethorpe would be proud.
- Where are the photos of U.S. sevicemen/women who weren't treated so well ? They were shot in the back of the head and stacked up like lumber..geee, why is there no Congressional hearing on THOSE?? Oh yeah, because it was those bastards we caught and had in prison who DID THOSE crimes.
- Why is it that all those prisoners photographed didn't have fingers, hands or other parts of their bodies missing ? HMMMMM???? Because there was no gorram torture, you idiot. As occurs in WAR, what went on was no worse than psychological war fare for those guys, photos taken to show OTHER prisoners what would happen to them if they didn't cooperate. In fact, one of the prisoners says he wants to move to the United States, because he was treated so well by EVERY SINGLE ONE of the other MP's except for a very few sick a-holes who got caught and will get what they deserved.
So, lets compare: Under Saddam, a political dissident could be beaten, lose a eye, a tongue, a hand, a foot ( especially if he was on a losing Iraqi Olympic Soccer team - ouch! ), get electricuted in all sorts ways.....
Under US control, 99% of all prisioners were treated extremely fair, polite and with respect ( THEIR WORDS, NOT OURS ), except the very few which were mistreated. All of those folks came out with all their fingers and toes, both eyes, a tongue..etc... just a bit humiliated. Wow, given the choice of losing a body part ( under Saddam ) or being forced to participate in an naked cheerleading stundt...I'll take the latter.
Finally, if it comes to protecting Sec Def Rumsfeld or Islamic terrorist...I'll take the side of Rumsfeld, every time.
P.S. And Ghoulman, keep your sick sexual fantasies about others to yourself. There are kids who come here and read these boards. Try thinking about what you say BEFORE you open your pie hole,for once.
"They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Talvin,
Stop telling people what to say and how to act.
Agreed, definitely. I enjoy reading posts about the Firefly 'verse, but I also enjoy reading about what my fellow Browncoats have to say about RL issues. It helps me get to know y'all a bit better.
Ghoulman hasn't done anything serious enough for a 'go now, and never come back' order, and if anyone is going to tell him to leave, it would be Haken who makes that decision. That being said, I think that the photos of torture (yes, TOTURE, there is NO OTHER WORD FOR IT) are disgraceful and frightful. There's no curse in any tongue suitable for this. The saddest thing is the sheer sadistic selfishness of the torturers: they were having their sick little photo shoots while other American soldiers were dying and fighting. These photos will only make the troops' job on the ground more hellish. The possibility of my cousin Simone going over to Iraq (she is a National Guardswoman) makes me sick.
May God have mercy on the souls of those torturers, because the Justice Department should hit them for all that they're worth.
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Tourture....BAD
But I'd pay to see that stuff done to Osama and Hussain.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
- REAL murders, tortures , mutilations ..etc, that DID occur in Saddams prisons. Any deaths which occured while prisoners under US care were trying to escape, incite riots and attack guards. Sorry Charlie, but there was no systematic, routine dismemberments going on here. Just photos of chicks hauling around hooded naked guys on dog collars. Maplethorpe would be proud.
- Where are the photos of U.S. sevicemen/women who weren't treated so well ? They were shot in the back of the head and stacked up like lumber..geee, why is there no Congressional hearing on THOSE?? Oh yeah, because it was those bastards we caught and had in prison who DID THOSE crimes.
I could be wrong here, but, you seem to me to be minimizing the offense here. We are not debating what Saddam did, we are debating what the US did do, period.
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
- Why is it that all those prisoners photographed didn't have fingers, hands or other parts of their bodies missing ? HMMMMM???? Because there was no gorram torture, you idiot. As occurs in WAR, what went on was no worse than psychological war fare for those guys, photos taken to show OTHER prisoners what would happen to them if they didn't cooperate. In fact, one of the prisoners says he wants to move to the United States, because he was treated so well by EVERY SINGLE ONE of the other MP's except for a very few sick a-holes who got caught and will get what they deserved.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but, electro-shock doesn't make people lose appendages does it? Again correct me if I'm wrong, but, is electro-shock a kind of torture?
And if you are likening this torture to psychological warfare then I'd have to say that I think that you are a fairly sick-minded individual. And you're going to have to provide proof of what that prisoner said. So, source please.
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
just a bit humiliated. Wow, given the choice of losing a body part ( under Saddam ) or being forced to participate in an naked cheerleading stundt...I'll take the latter.
Your fallacy here is that you are making judgments on what these people think by western culture standards. This couldn't be more wrong as there culture is just too (and I mean way too) different for this to be justified.
And just for the record. This humiliation - as you put it - for them is pretty much worse than death. So, if you thought April was bad, just wait. The US has really called these guys out now, it's go time for the militant groups over there. And it won't matter to them whether it was just one or a couple that did it.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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AURaptor, I quote you from here http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=5084#61093
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
I just come here to as a welcome escape from the "real" world, and it really bothers me that some of the most active threads are the ones where people have endless arguments over who is right or wrong.
I could not agree more. There is an entire net out there for folks to post their views on what goes on in the real world. This crap about " if you don't care to participate .....then don't click " is horse shit. This is a FIREFLY fans board. We're here to discuss FIREFLY and such related topics. If the owners would care to put up a politics board to discuss earthly matters, that's fine. But I see no reason to pollute this fine board with political myrmidons with their pointless hyperbole and posturing.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
Aren't you being a hypocrite right now? I mean, you speak of people polluting this board with political discussions yet you contribute.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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There's been a lot of hyperbole on both 'sides' of this issue. The assertion that this series of incidents was a deliberate policy decision made at the top levels of the US government is a bit hard for me to swallow, and I'm not a huge fan of the current US goverment.
Having said that, using the term 'abuse' to describe what's in those photos is very much an understatement, and is just as politcally motivated as the people accusing the US of doing this deliberately.
What happened to those prisoners - 'detainees' is also a euphamism to avoid following the Geneva Conventions, to which the US is a signatory - is torture, plain and simple, and a war crime. It's hard to face up to, no doubt about it. No one likes to admit that their soldiers have committed such acts, but when sch things occur, it's best to admit it, to deal with it, and move on.
Canada went through a similar incident in Somalia in 1993, and the episode was not easy to digest or admit to, and we made the same, or similar, mistakes the current US administration is making by not revealing the incident at once and by foot dragging and ultimately punishing only the grunts that did the deeds. Those in command bare as much responsibility, particularly if they knew or should have known, and did nothing. That particular doctrine, by the way, has been a more or less accepted Western military practice that grew out of the Nuremburg trails after WWII.
I'm a former soldier, a former NCO, and there is no way in hell any of those pictured in those photos have any legitimate defence. What was pictured in those photos was obvious torture. Best to admit it, it'll make the pain last much less longer.
If you can survive death, you can probably survive almost anything.
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One thing that bother me is that the US went out of their way to not have their prisoners condition montiored by the International Red Cross. While some will no doubt argue why should they, prisoners held by the Iraqis don't get this, I would say that it would have provided independant third party verification that these prisoners were not mistreated. Right now with these pictures in the press, any prisoners held by Iraqi resistance groups are likely to be treated in the same or worse fashion, where as up to now, as in the case of the recently escaped Haliburton driver, they were not treated badly.
" Thats not fair !!!!
I didn't even have a soul when I did that!"
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Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but, electro-shock doesn't make people lose appendages does it?
A non sequitur. We didn't shock anyone, Saddam did. That is the point I'm making. We don't know in what context those pics were taken. We see a prisoner standing w/ electrodes connected to him at one end....and the other end..nothing. The wires weren't connected up to a car battery ...there was no electrode shock therapy going on. That is my point. It was psychological. I didn't say it was pretty, and I DID say bounds were overstepped by some US Reservist guards.[bold] But this IS war.[/bold] Sorry, but I'd rather strip a prisoner naked and make them BELIEVE something bad was going to happen if they didn't give us information that would save 1 American life. If that's sick , then fine by me. Better harrass 1 prisoner w/ psychology than to allow 10's of civillians / US Soldiers die from a car bomb. I'll make that choice EVERY time.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Aren't you being a hypocrite right now? I mean, you speak of people polluting this board with political discussions yet you contribute.
I didn't start this thread. Me not contributing to it won't make it go away. If lies ,distortions and absurdities are going to be posted here that are in reference to my country, I will make a choice on whether to respond or not, according to the terms of this board.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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