It's called "torture" Mr. Bush
POSTED BY: Ghoulman
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 15:55
VIEWED: 24944
PAGE 10 of 14
And to be more evenhanded about the whole thing - here is the link to the whole David Kay Report - provided by Connorflynn, thanks :)
http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/speeches/2003/david_kay_10022003
.html
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I read David Kay's entire report.
As a source of amusement, you might be interested in tallying the 'may's, 'might's, 'could's, and 'possible's, (could possibly, may possibly etc) and similar phrases in the report.
Also tally up the unmodified 'are's, 'did's, 'was's etc (ie 'was possibly' doesn't count).
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Quote:
Originally posted by FlyinFree:
Hence my comment about Bush being a fascist idiot about 1 goose step away from Hitler.
I'd say Bin Ladden and Saddam along with those who follow them or believe what they do are far closer to Hitler then Bush could ever be.
Bush might be aggressive in his prosecution of the War on Terror, but its the Muslims seeking the elimination of the Jewish race. Its the Muslims who send their kids off to little 'Hitler Youth' style religous schools to learn hate and murder from the earliest age. Its the Muslims who have been involved in the most aggression since Hitler himself.
Granted the palestinians have a beef, the World took their land to create a Jewish state. But its not like they were really using it and we owed the Jewish people a big favor after what they suffered at Hitler's hands. Isreal went on to become a stable, prosperous Democracy, but rather then share the wealth, the Palestinians persist in senseless violence.
Hitler wasn't big on sharing either.
I wont call you a Nazi sympathyzer for defending those Muslims who believe as Hitler did and act as Hitler would act. But you are a fool. History will either enlighten you or entrench your position. But deep down you'll know yourself for the fool you are and you'll be ashamed.
H
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Blah, blah, blah, blah...
Lies and more lies. It's funny how people constantly parrot what they are told they should think. Thanks CNN.
The thing is, Americans have lost thier sense of reality. Why? Because they watch a dog wagging TV that constantly tells them retarded things like 'Torture is acceptable' (actual CNN quote from two weeks BEFORE the torture photos), or 'the Geneva Convention doesn't apply' (Dick Cheney), or anything they can think of. They will say anything. The White House is a liars think tank.
America has already lost the conflict in Iraq. This is the first thing Americans need to understand. It's over. You lost. Again. Who will you blame?
The Chicago University study that showed how the White House revieled over 27 reasons for invading Iraq is incredible. Now, this is said on the news like it's no big thing... well, if I gave my boss 27 reasons for fuckin' up do you think I'd have a job? REALITY! Other countries respect laws because people go to jail, even Presidents. But not in the USA. Not anymore.
Worse... no one here has stood up for the soldiers at all! SHAME! The spin going around, especially the first week, is that the 'abuse' (it's TORTURE! REALITY!) was caused by a few. But we know that in fact this is POLICY from Intellegence and thus Rumsfeld and thus the President. How do we know this? REALITY... it's thier JOB to know! So why doesn't anyone call the White House on it? Why?
Because the White House runs the War like the Nazis did. That is - dissent is treason (there's even a frickin' book), follow the Pres or loose your job (Clarke), ignore international law (torturing innocent civilians as policy).
I know the old rule on the Net is that the second you call someone a Nazi that ends the debate. But when the White House uses every Nazi trick in the Nazi cook book you gotta wonder. And of course, sicking dogs on prisoners certainly provoked a few memories (and comments) from Holocaust Survivors.
"The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly . . . it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over."
-Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Minister of Propaganda
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I guess I'm a bit of a romantic rather than a pragmatist in my personal patriotism. I'd rather see our great and wonderful experiment in democracy (the USA) end than to see us compromise on our founding principles. Yeah, there needs to be flexibility to change with the times otherwise it's not democracy, but instead some kind of weird necropoly ruled by our ancestors. But, all the same, there are principles that should not be subject to later revision. Torture is far beyond the veil even if some of us, or even the majority of us, feel that we can justify it for some reason or another (national security, war on terror etc.). I think that kind of self-justification was what made the cold war so scary (School of the Americas, anyone?).
That's my opinion on the matter.
My only other comment is to support the idea that political discussions should be welcome on this forum, but that there really needs to be a basic sense of decorum. Presenting ideas is one thing, but name calling (on either side of this debate) is like a wave eroding the sand castle of discourse and resulting in an anarchic cloud of sand.
Diego
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Quote:Ah name calling, always an intelligent and dignified way of getting your point across....if your point is you're an ass.
Originally posted by Hero:
But you are a fool. History will either enlighten you or entrench your position. But deep down you'll know yourself for the fool you are and you'll be ashamed.
I didn't say Saddam or Bin Laden were better than Bush (oh, right you jump to conclusions too). Just because they are asses doesn't excuse Bush from being one (or you either for that matter). And not all Muslims are evil murdering psychos, just like not all Americans are gun-toting rednecks, it's just the gun-toting rednecks give the rest of you a bad name.
If Bush invaded for strictly humanitarian reasons why hasn't he gone after all the other dictators in the world, instead of just the one with the biggest oil fields? Human rights are being trampled all over the world but Bush doesn't care, his oil baron buddies wanted Iraq so Bush went and got it for them. You don't see him declaring war in North Korea, China, Africa, Cuba or anywhere else do you? They don't have oil, it's not worth it. Also it didn't hurt that the war (pronounced slaughter) distracted the public from the fact that Bush is a lousy president who appears to have Forest Gump as an economic advisor.
"...we're still flyin'."
"That's not much."
"It's enough." Malcolm Reynolds and Simon Tam - Serenity
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Quote:
Originally posted by FlyinFree:
Ah name calling, always an intelligent and dignified way of getting your point across....if your point is you're an ass.
Like calling someone a Nazi?
Quote:
I didn't say Saddam or Bin Laden were better than Bush.
Funny. You guys hardly ever condemn the actual terrorists. Like the guys who hung the burned, mutilated corpses of American aid workers from a bridge, or the good fellows who decapitated an American for Arab TV, or the poor misunderstood souls who ambushed an Isreali army patrol then stole the body parts to use as bargining chips, or the peaceloving people who blow themselves up on buses filled with schoolchildren, or the rightous men of God who kill or mutilate women and girls for the horrific crime of learning to read, or the statesmen who seek peace in the Middle East by making the understandable demand that all Jews must die, or and so on and so forth and lets not forget the planes, bombings, machetes, rock throwers, murdered Iraqi scientists, bribed UN and European leaders, dancing in the streets, and abused Donkey cart drivers.
Quote:
Just because they are asses doesn't excuse Bush from being one (or you either for that matter).
Saddam and Bin Laddin are not "asses". They are murdering, would be despots with delusions of rightousness. Bush and I may be asses, but sometimes it takes a bad ass to kick some ass. Perhaps you prefer the Clinton approach (ignore, drop bomb in desert, ignore, blow up aspirin factory in neutral 3rd country, ignore).
Quote:
why hasn't he gone after all the other dictators in the world, instead of just the one with the biggest oil fields? Human rights are being trampled all over the world...You don't see him declaring war in North Korea, China, Africa, Cuba or anywhere else do you? They don't have oil
Lots of oil in Nigeria, we havn't gone there. China is too big to conquer in 30 days. Cuba is being contained and, by recent news reports, delt with. North Korea has a leader who really is a bit insane and has a couple real nukes that he can and will hit Japan or South Korea so pardon us for wanting to handle that one delicately. Also where is France and the so called rest of the world? We send troops the fight, they fight. French troops stood by and watched while Rwandans were slaughtered by the million. They could have stopped it, we would have helped.
Quote:
Also it didn't hurt that the war (pronounced slaughter) distracted the public from the fact that Bush is a lousy president who appears to have Forest Gump as an economic advisor.
Seems to me Gump was a very wealthy man with a successful business and a knack for being in the right place and doing the right thing.
I can't complain, I got my job, a new job created in 2002 just for me, and the best job I've ever had making more money then ever before.
As for the rest of the Economy, seems the country is headed in the right direction. Just opened a closed engine plant in Cleveland, is that new industry in Ohio...I can't believe it. Why I thought everybody was losing their jobs and the economy was in ruins. Wait, that was the Clinton legacy.
As I said, history will prove you the fool, as it has most 20th century liberals. Some learn and are better for it, many get angry and entrench in their beliefs. All are fools and deeps down they know it.
So there you go. You're a fool, I'm an ass. I'm also one of those gun-toting rednecks (although I'm a Yankee and wont really be gun -toting till I pick up my concealed carry permit next month).
When dealing with the likes of Bin Ladden it seems better to be a armed asshole then an unarmed fool.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diego:
My only other comment is to support the idea that political discussions should be welcome on this forum, but that there really needs to be a basic sense of decorum. Presenting ideas is one thing, but name calling (on either side of this debate) is like a wave eroding the sand castle of discourse and resulting in an anarchic cloud of sand.
Diego
Yea, It's not like this is moderated. You're on your own. *pssst* Listen... if "people" like to forward bizarre lies such as 'torture is acceptable' then I will NOT treat them with any respect. Why should I?
If "people" call me a liberal as if that's a bad thing I'll piss on thier heads. Why would I accept such an underhanded Nazi tactic? Yes... labeling people is something the Nazis invented in regard to polemics of this nature.
If "people" think that I'll accept rhetoric reminisant of 1939 Germany I will not. Why would you?
Right now, Iraq is a meat grinder and all I can think is "people" can't even get the brains to give a rats tiny pink arse that innocent people (the ones "people" call terrorists) are getting tortured and killed and raped, etc.
So "people" are here arguing a thread that as of last week even CNN reporting has proven to be 100% correct. Why? Because they are liars.
And I recall that School of the Americas stuff from waaaaay back. Funny, I hoped I'd grow up NOT to live through Vietnam.
I guess after 9/11 nothing changed after all. America is still on the same path it always was. Not a good thing btw.
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I really got a kick out of this. It's from the onion.
http://www.theonion.com/wdyt/index.php?issue=4019
"They wanted to provide Iraq with a smooth transition to democracy. We couldn't just plunge them into a non-torture-based society with no time to adjust."
"I’m sure Bush was deeply saddened by the fact that American soldiers were stupid enough to document their acts of cruelty."
"Thank God Saddam's in jail so he can't commit atrocities like this anymore."
"Some people want to make military prisons into country clubs— instead of the S&M clubs they are now."
"If we hadn’t tortured those prisoners, we could never have achieved the post-war stability Iraq is currently enjoying."
"It's not like they made a 70-year-old woman get down on all fours, then climbed on her back and called her a donkey. What? Oh, no."
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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