My 10 year old in some FF related trouble

POSTED BY: JustDavid
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 21:57
VIEWED: 20544
PAGE 7 of 9

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Originally posted by Zoriah:
JustDavid: Leita sounds like a well adjusted, thoughtful and loving daughter. I hope to be so lucky one day ;)

Where I live (in NZ) profanity is not such a big deal as it seems to be in the US (we use words like damn, bollocks, hell, shit, bugger etc a lot in every day conversation. In my opinion strong cussing once in a while (where appropriate) is not a sign some huge break down in societal values.

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I agree, Swearing and cussing can be an effectual and important method to expressing oneself - when and where appropriate - at times. It might even be the preferred method or the singular method if one is a longshoremen or a pirate - but I wouldn't know that. All I know is that there are much better ways and words of expressing oneself in most particular situations. I swear alot when I am around people who's singular mode of communication is thru grunts and cussing. I swear when I am alone working on projects and done something dumb. The thing that I am trying to convey is that swearing shouldn't be the first and only option in a child's "bag of tricks". At such an impressionable young age, they should be taught how to get help when it's appropriate, how to deal with conflict, disarm the situation, and if completely appropriate and there are no absolutely no other options (I would say it's time to get help rather than swearing) perhaps other avenues.

IAC, swearing and cussing is increasingly a replacement in wide-open public places to expressing oneself. I know that there are plenty of parents out there who even objects to the use of *non-swear* words such as "stupid", let alone other more powerful incarnations. I sit in family restaurants (not in a bar) and the idiots around us just don't know how to shut up - it's a family restaurant, not some local pool hall.

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Originally posted by Zoriah:


What if I happen to like mushy spaghetti and think it's best that way? Or hate italian sausage? If it's my meal to prepare then I'll make it how I think it should be made with the ingredients I think are best.

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Some people do indeed like mushy spaghetti. Maybe it's even the same as the pink mush I described. I wouldn't know. I don't much like it myself. I like sausages. You don't, we all like different things. But there are differences between mere preferences (which don't amount to any beans when it's all done) and decisions with societal impacts. I won't reiterate my views that things like raising kids are one of those - most parents would agree - it's just how we each do things at the end that we likely disagree on.

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Originally posted by Zoriah:

If I want advice on how to make spaghetti another way, then I'll ask. Simple as that ;)

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Zoriah, we aren't talking about advices on fashion tips - like "Good Golly, look at that nasty shirt you are wearing!" or "Did you sleep in that outfit?" Maybe you live on an island by yourself, but last time I checked, we are all dependent on each other in this little world. But at your request, I have noted it down in my little book:

"No Spaghetti Advices for Zoriah"

and I expect that, since you won't take any advice, you also won't be dispensing any advices either? Bummer, I will have to do without that secret lamb stew spaghetti recipe - I suppose.

thanks,



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Quote:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
At such an impressionable young age, they should be taught how to get help when it's appropriate, how to deal with conflict, disarm the situation, and if completely appropriate and there are no absolutely no other options (I would say it's time to get help rather than swearing) perhaps other avenues.

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This is a good example of why I think you're getting some opposition here.
First, you've said before that you're just offering suggestions, but your tone often comes across as preaching, and for me when it seems like someone is lecturing me, my gut reaction is to reject whatever point they're trying to make. From a teacher in a college class, I'm totally open to a lecture. But from most other sources, it just makes me turn off.
Second, many of us disagree with the idea that cussing is a significant evil, or that it leads to things like smoking or violence. I just can't see a connection there. From my point of view, cussing at the wrong time amounts to a social faux pas, like maybe eating spaghetti with your hands. People will disapprove, but not much harm done.

Thanks to Zoriah, CantTakeSky, and others further up the thread for all the kind words.


"Light it."

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I think that's a lot wrong in this society. Something is going on that clearly with have future repercussions - you should speak up.

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Then Maybe people should worry about more important problems. Such as, the dumping down of school curriculum, the worsening of the "me attitude", crimes becoming more violent, in fact society becoming more violent and disconnected (socially) etc. Swearing is hardly one of these top issues and is most likely a side effect of them.

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We can discuss causation and results. But the solution starts at home.

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You have missed my point. It is the fact that parents after the first few years have little control over there child. ie Once they enter the school system. So, for the most part, the home has been taken out of the equation, unfortunatly.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Schools only provide one small facet of a child's total curriculum.

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Total BS. The school in the past provided one small facet of a child's total curriculum, but, not anymore. The school has been called upon to teach sex-ed, phys-ed, general social behaviours, etc. This should be the parents domain, but, because parents don't want to deal with these things anymore they are offloading them on the schools. Which by the laws of the land, schools cannot provide these things to any degree of quality.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It has been shown that different children using the same curriculum proceed at a different pace not merely b/c of their own personal ability, but b/c of their support system at home.

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Don't these same studies say that a child is only significantly impacted with a bad home? ie divorce, abuse, etc. Which incidentally has nothing to do with a kid swearing. More likely a side effect of it.

You know, with the posts we exchange, I get the feeling more and more that you cannot tell the difference between cause and effect. You seem to treat them as one and not that one comes after the other. I know about cause and effect and have put forth ideas that get to the root of the problem not the symptoms.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Take away MTV, take away gangsta rap, take away violent movies, take away Big Macs, 24 hour soda fountains, Britney Spears - and the parents *might* have a chance.

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So then, you are one of those black and white people. The situation is much more complicated than you make it as well and more complicated than can be discussed here.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
But let's provide the kids with a good stable foundation to be ready to understand and perhaps *appreciate* these things without being completely exploited by them.

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Sheltering a child has never been good and never will be. I've had many friends that have been sheltered and they are not exactly well adjusted. Those that parents didn't try to shield them from the world, but, let it come at its natural pace are the ones that became the most.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
(Again with the food analogy)

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I again make my disdain known for these analogies. They over simplify an obviously complicated issue.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
1. they are not overwhelmed with the sudden strong flavors and get completely turned off by the awfulness and intensity.

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If a child never is able to overcome adversity then the will remain a coward or develop an over-inflated sense of self. ie I can do anything, which is ridiculous. By the way, what you suggest to do happens naturally with life.

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
2. learn to appreciate and differenciate each new food and flavour.

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So then, we treat our kids like they are stupid? Like they need to be spoon fed?

Those that are intellectuals will act out if they are not challenged. So, then this would make the problem worse. That is w

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Quote:

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Originally posted by JustDavid:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
At such an impressionable young age, they should be taught how to get help when it's appropriate, how to deal with conflict, disarm the situation, and if completely appropriate and there are no absolutely no other options (I would say it's time to get help rather than swearing) perhaps other avenues.

---

This is a good example of why I think you're getting some opposition here.
First, you've said before that you're just offering suggestions, but your tone often comes across as preaching, and for me when it seems like someone is lecturing me, my gut reaction is to reject whatever point they're trying to make. From a teacher in a college class, I'm totally open to a lecture. But from most other sources, it just makes me turn off.

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And from my experience, academics are the people who should lecture the least. Academics should do research and break ground in new theories. Unfortunately, very few academics have real live experience and applications. Few well studied academics are generalists enough to apply their field outside of very defined instances.

Like I said, the general attitude here is that "no one can teach me anything new". I hope that those folks can do a little reexamining and figure out that if we all help each other - just a little bit, we can all build something nice together.

The "preachiness" isn't my part - I challenge you-all to take anyone of my post and rewrite it to the point that you feel is *not-preachy*. That way I can learn something specifically on why either my words or the way I wrote was "preachy". Perhaps it was the words I used, perhaps it was my sentence structure - either way, I would be glad to learn more from you-all.

In exchange, I ask that you take a moment and reflect on why it is that we all have to reinvent every single thing on our own - brush me off if you must (as you said, I am but one small insignificant individual in a sea of people - like everyone of us are) - but don't brush off the idea. We can all build a better place together.

Quote:

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Originally posted by JustDavid:


Second, many of us disagree with the idea that cussing is a significant evil, or that it leads to things like smoking or violence. I just can't see a connection there. From my point of view, cussing at the wrong time amounts to a social faux pas, like maybe eating spaghetti with your hands. People will disapprove, but not much harm done.

Thanks to Zoriah, CantTakeSky, and others further up the thread for all the kind words.


"Light it."

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Let's move away from "cussing is a significant evil" - my entire point is that there are better things to do than cussing in most situations and a child should learn those things. I have already stated and many folks have stated the same that cussing can be useful at the appropriate time and the appropriate place - I've reiterated that there are probably better avenues to resolve the situation.

And I think you agree there. I believe your thoughts are (correct me if my interpretation from your post is incorrect) that. Your instruction to your child is that "you won't do that the next time". I take that to mean that - should the same (or similar) situation occur again, she will not use those words. I am thinking that you believe there are other avenues to explore, in this particular situation, besides swearing. In which case, what I've done is to model the situation with my kid and have them play act out the part, let their lips, tongue, brain, and body experience the different types of behavior that they could have done. That's all I want to say.



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If within this community we may provide advice, allow me to propose two thoughts.

"Until thy feet have trod the Road
Advise not wayside folk."--Rudyard Kipling ("The Comforters")

"The true secret of giving advice is, after you have honestly given it, to be perfectly indifferent whether it is taken or not, and never persist in trying to set people right."--Hannah Whitall Smith

"Wacky fun..."

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Quote:

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
I think that's a lot wrong in this society. Something is going on that clearly with have future repercussions - you should speak up.

---

Then Maybe people should worry about more important problems. Such as, the dumping down of school curriculum, the worsening of the "me attitude", crimes becoming more violent, in fact society becoming more violent and disconnected (socially) etc. Swearing is hardly one of these top issues and is most likely a side effect of them.

---

We can discuss causation and results. But the solution starts at home.

---

You have missed my point. It is the fact that parents after the first few years have little control over there child. ie Once they enter the school system. So, for the most part, the home has been taken out of the equation, unfortunatly.

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No, parents do not *have* to give up everything to the world. I've stated earlier in this thread that I am quite well aware of the fact the type of curriculum the school imposes on the parents nowadays. The home is not take out of the equation if you don't let it. Here, in our household, we work with our teacher every week and find out what's coming down the line; we keep a close tap on who the friends are in the classroom, who they hang out with, how they behave in the classroom, what they have been learning, what teaching methods the teachers use in each of the subject. All of this so that we can properly supplement the lessons that are going on in the classroom with what we can teach and how we can help at home - not just academically, but emotionally as well.

If you admit that you've completely given up control, then you must have. The school and teaching systems nowadays are relegated to doing what they have to do b/c they still believe in the things that must be taught to children - b/c a few parents care enough to take control of what's going on. None of these would be necessary if most of us care enough to offer advice to new parents and make sure that most of the kids are prepared to get into school - then be there for them and guide them thru the school years.

I hope that you don't truly believe that one has absolutely no control over what happens to a child once they enter school - I don't know if you have children or not (from your other threads, I gathered that you do not). The fact is, you do lose a little control, but by that time, it's time to let go a little and have them learn a little bit of the real world.

Quote:

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Schools only provide one small facet of a child's total curriculum.

---

Total BS. The school in the past provided one small facet of a child's total curriculum, but, not anymore. The school has been called upon to teach sex-ed, phys-ed, general social behaviours, etc. This should be the parents domain, but, because parents don't want to deal with these things anymore they are offloading them on the schools. Which by the laws of the land, schools cannot provide these things to any degree of quality.

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The school plays a comparatively small part in my child and our family's life b/c that's what we allow it to have. What we teach, how we supplement the material at home, all of the family activities we do together continue to far surpass what is done in school. We make what the teachers do an integral part of what our child do, but we certainly assert control of how the lessons are taken in. No, we can't control what they are spoon-fed along with the other kids, but we certainly work with our kids on what lessons are "learned".

Quote:

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It has been shown that different children using the same curriculum proceed at a different pace not merely b/c of their own personal ability, but b/c

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