My 10 year old in some FF related trouble
POSTED BY: JustDavid
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 21:57
VIEWED: 20544
PAGE 4 of 9
Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:Quote:
Originally posted by sasja:
While some things that are appropriate for adults aren't so for children, they're inappropriate for good reasons: alcohol and cigarettes (can cause damage at a crucial stage in a human's growth), sex (for obvious reasons) etc. Why would swearing fall in this category? It's not really harmful in any way I can see, and can be a very effective form of communication. Describe to yourself in general terms a situation where cursing would be appropriate - why couldn't a child find herself in such a situation? Hoping not to offend (too much), could it be that you wish your children to be picture perfect little angels rather than growing persons, living their own - sometimes quite tough - lives?
No, people get to spend about 2/3 of their lives being adults. Kids should be kids (not necessarily perfect angels) - kids should have the time to grow up at their own pace and not have the world thrust upon them. Kids have it tough enough trying to understand everything else going on around them. Sooner or later, we all get to learn what the real world is about. If they get another couple of years of not having to think about or worry about the real world out there and get to play with their lego blocks a couple more years - fine.
I think this picture builds on the misconception that while children play with lego blocks their lives are full of bliss and they essentially have no worries. The real world is thrust upon them from day one, and rejection, hierarchy among playmates, bullying etc is everyday life even for pre school kids. Our job as parents is to help, support and guide them through these problems.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
That's another couple of years that we can spend building a better foundation for a couple of better people - maybe a bit more ready for the real world.
Will you drag your pre-toddlers by the arms and get them to run before they are even ready to crawl? After all, regular people walk everyday - and there isn't harm in walking. How about eating solid food when their digestive system isn't ready for it? Everybody eats solid food, so what's the harm in that? They are developmentally ready for it.
Err, no, they're exactly not developmentally ready for it. And that's why I wouldn't do it.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Some things kids might not be physically ready for, other things they aren't mentally ready for, yet other things they aren't psychologically ready for. Learning the right basis and the right options can make a world of a difference.
Why should every kid have to thrash around trying to figure out the right answer in every situation? Yes, I agree, kids should learn on their own. Again, give them some boundaries and recipes to start from. Not only can they learn quicker and figure things out better.
I perfectly agree. I don't see how this leads you to think that swearing is inappropriate for 10-years olds.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:Quote:
Originally posted by sasja:
Of course, too much swearing (for adults and children alike) will impair a person's ability to express herself and is frowned upon by society in general. Children need to learn the rules for swearing just like they need to learn a million other rules for interaction. If your child seems to have a problem in this respect, action needs to be taken. But it seems to me, from what we've heard, that Leita is quite on top of that.
Not sure what we are on top of... that she didn't have a way to express herself in that situation and ended up blurting out something she heard on TV without quite knowing what it is?
She did have a way of expressing herself. And (assuming the circumstances were such that they warranted a good cussin') an appropiate way. The fact that she usually never swears, but reserves it for special situations, like when she's bullied by a group of older children, tells me she
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Quote:
Doing it in a language foreign to her tormentors is just more elegant and effective - not to mention cool 
This was actually part of my point (from far above): swearing in a foreign language
when your listeners have no idea what you said
has always been a socially acceptable way around the 'no cursing' rule:
That is why Joss could do it on TV!
That is why Jewish comedians used so much Yiddish.
The fact is that swearing in a foreign language does not function in the same way as saying it in a common language...
it is not inflamatory, it is only a curiosity...
Fact is if this young lady hadn't been so honest she could have gotten away with telling her teacher that it was a nonsense phrase and meant nothing at all...
So, okay, we want to teach children what is 'right' and keep them good an pure...
But I've never met a two year old yet who hasn't learned to say the most horrible things when they over-heard their parent get scalded, or break something...
I still hold that bullying is the worse crime.
And by saying 'pushing around' I meant: intimidation, tormenting, or as it was originally put 'picking on'.
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I agree that as parents, we need to guide and direct our children, I think any parent will agree w/ that fact.
I don't believe, or see any statement to inforce the belief, that JustDave encouraged his daughter to swear at another person, or that he told his daughter he thought it acceptable behavior. He did mention he found it interesting she knew the phrase, but I think it was more out of his attachment to Firefly than any sort of shortcoming on his part as a parent.
I am sure that JustDave is as good a parent as any on this board. One should be careful not to read too much out of so simple a post at that which started this thread. Being critical of assumed faults in someone else's parenting style is unworthy of the posters on this board.
I think that as parents we are obligated to do all we can to guide our children and mold them into responsible adults who will contribute to society. I screen what my children watch, what they do, etc, but unfortunately I (and any other parent) can not be by their child's side 24 hours a day. They see and hear things in school, on the bus, on TV, and from friends and family that we may are not able to filter. We have to trust and encourage our children to talk to us about everything, let them know we will listen and care. Without communication, no one can effectively parent.
"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
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you are correct... "Ta ma de" would be considered a fragment in the grammatical sense. But it's always uttered standalone - sometimes leaving you with a feeling that it does indeed is spoken with ellipses at the end and leading to something else, other times it just is.
BTW, you seem to reference Putonghua and Mandarin as if there is a difference between them?
Quote:
Originally posted by Bourne:
FWIW(and hoping this post isn't redundant), "Ta ma de" is a fragment of an obscene phrase, much like saying "What the-" or "Son of a-". The uttered portion itself translates(literally) as "his/her mother's-"(in the possessive sense). I never got a straight answer from any of my Chinese friends as to what the unspoken portion was, but I think we can make a pretty good guess...mine: something decidedly anatomical. I base this on the fact that there's no shortage of similarly crude and personal anatomical references in Putonghua(mainland vernacular) that are considered unacceptable outside of the "nanzi han"(read: male-chauvinist-pig drinking buddies). But I did hear "Ta ma de" uttered in mixed company under circs of extreme frustration.
But then, my Chinese was never better than your average 4-year-old's, and now it's nearly all gone. Except for the dirty words, of course...
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Quote:
Originally posted by sasja:Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:Quote:
Originally posted by sasja:
While some things that are appropriate for adults aren't so for children, they're inappropriate for good reasons: alcohol and cigarettes (can cause damage at a crucial stage in a human's growth), sex (for obvious reasons) etc. Why would swearing fall in this category? It's not really harmful in any way I can see, and can be a very effective form of communication. Describe to yourself in general terms a situation where cursing would be appropriate - why couldn't a child find herself in such a situation? Hoping not to offend (too much
No, people get to spend about 2/3 of their lives being adults. Kids should be kids (not necessarily perfect angels) - kids should have the time to grow up at their own pace and not have the world thrust upon them. Kids have it tough enough trying to understand everything else going on around them. Sooner or later, we all get to learn what the real world is about. If they get another couple of years of not having to think about or worry about the real world out there and get to play with their lego blocks a couple more years - fine.
I think this picture builds on the misconception that while children play with lego blocks their lives are full of bliss and they essentially have no worries. The real world is thrust upon them from day one, and rejection, hierarchy among playmates, bullying etc is everyday life even for pre school kids. Our job as parents is to help, support and guide them through these problems.
No arguments from me. But let them "play lego blocks". Their lives might not be utterly and completely be full of bliss, but it's more bliss than a world full of pornography, violence, swearing, killing, murdering, bullying, terrorizing, and Enron scamming - none of which they understand nor have the ability to grasp. One lesson at a time. They get to learn it with the correct basis. They learn it thru cooperative competition. They learn it when they get hurt themselves that sometimes people get hurt. They learn it when their pet plants die that living things expire. Build up on small lessons.
For now, the lego blocks are fun, and they don't murder each other, curse at each other, or sneak off and have sex ... yet...
Quote:
Originally posted by sasja:Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
That's another couple of years that we can spend building a better foundation for a couple of better people - maybe a bit more ready for the real world.
Will you drag your pre-toddlers by the arms and get them to run before they are even ready to crawl? After all, regular people walk everyday - and there isn't harm in walking. How about eating solid food when their digestive system isn't ready for it? Everybody eats solid food, so what's the harm in that? They are developmentally ready for it.
Err, no, they're exactly not developmentally ready for it. And that's why I wouldn't do it.
exactly... plenty of things kids aren't ready for... not just *physically* developmentally, but *mentally* as well... They need small experiences to build their ideas and concepts on. People have sex everyday. But would kids be ready to watch pornography?
Quote:
Originally posted by sasja:Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Some things kids might not be physically ready for, other things they aren't mentally ready for, yet other things they aren't psychologically ready for. Learning the right basis and the right options can make a world of a difference.
Why should every kid have to thrash around trying to figure out the right answer in every situation? Yes, I agree, kids should learn on their own. Again, give them some boundaries and recipes to start from. Not only can they learn quicker and fNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
I agree that as parents, we need to guide and direct our children, I think any parent will agree w/ that fact.
I don't believe, or see any statement to inforce the belief, that JustDave encouraged his daughter to swear at another person, or that he told his daughter he thought it acceptable behavior. He did mention he found it interesting she knew the phrase, but I think it was more out of his attachment to Firefly than any sort of shortcoming on his part as a parent.
I am sure that JustDave is as good a parent as any on this board. One should be careful not to read too much out of so simple a post at that which started this thread. Being critical of assumed faults in someone else's parenting style is unworthy of the posters on this board.
I wouldn't assume that JustDavid is a *good* parent or a *bad* parent from just a couple of posts. My comments were just inline with the situation in general. Folks seem to think it's real cool and read all sorts of things on how responsible and intelligent the entire deal is. I don't see it either way from the entire thing being described in just two posts.
Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
I think that as parents we are obligated to do all we can to guide our children and mold them into responsible adults who will contribute to society. I screen what my children watch, what they do, etc, but unfortunately I (and any other parent) can not be by their child's side 24 hours a day. They see and hear things in school, on the bus, on TV, and from friends and family that we may are not able to filter. We have to trust and encourage our children to talk to us about everything, let them know we will listen and care. Without communication, no one can effectively parent.
Buddy, I can't agree with you more... The first 5 years (before preschool) is so damn critical to lay down the ground work - enough so that they are ready to face the horde of humanity in preschool - I can't imagine leaving them alone one second to hired help or the TV to raise them. It's unfortunate in the US (I think it's mostly only in the US - although it's probably spreading to other countries as well) that parents (very frequently) no longer have a family support structure nearby and that with the competition "with the Joneses" leads to the kind of economic structure we have - the need to have 2 or 3 jobs between the 2 parents (worst when one is single-parenting, which leads off to another discussion)... Children are simply no longer prepared for learning at school. We end up relegating most of our entire parenting responsibilities to (if not the hired help) the school system. No wonder our teachers are frazzled and tired.
After the first 5 years, you have to let go a little at a time and teach them to learn, teach them the right responses and behaviours, teach them to make decisions and let them be themselves a little at a time. One thing at a time, one lesson at a time, when they are ready to do one thing, let them do it and build on that.
Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
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Quote:You're still missreading me. The point of the sentence was that I felt the parent was doing something 'right'. The rest is all over the place sociologically and would take about 1000 words to begin *chuckle*. I think you're posting far faster than I so forgive me if I don't have answers or post with alacrity.
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Ghoulman,
something else I don't understand. People often congratulate each other as to "having a great kid".
Obviously, I think it's just fine for kids to swear and cuss if it's appropriate (in another language just shows what a clever person this child is). I think this situation was appropriate. You might want to give your kids the 'turn the other cheek' lesson from Jesus but hey, look what happened to him.
Allegorically speaking...
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Ghoulman,
no biggie. each to their own.
Read my other post on Cowering, being cowed into submission. But basically, I believe neither in swearing nor cowing in this particular situation.
Numerous and far better options exist in between the rift of those two. And certainly no need to extend to physical violence. Although if there is no choice and it comes down to it, make sure that the other party is put to rest so the entire matter is settled as quickly and if possible as painlessly is possible.
I would have congratulate the kid if she had used one of the other smart aleck lines within the show - but my take here is swearing was either a "cop out" or just plain emotional reaction "blurted something out" - no matter than if she had belted them a good one.
Like I said before, for a small matter like this, the kid should have been better prepped and prepared to deal with the situatioin - far more civilized method. Other situation might call for swearing (I doubt it for a kid), but a kid should at least have enough confidence to *not* have to resort to swearing or physical threat or violence.
*But* do get them some preparation if it comes dow n to that, at least they would be confident in doing it - even if they shouldn't have to.
Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:Quote:You're still missreading me. The point of the sentence was that I felt the parent was doing something 'right'. The rest is all over the place sociologically and would take about 1000 words to begin *chuckle*. I think you're posting far faster than I so forgive me if I don't have answers or post with alacrity.
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Ghoulman,
something else I don't understand. People often congratulate each other as to "having a great kid".
Obviously, I think it's just fine for kids to swear and cuss if it's appropriate (in another language just shows what a clever person this child is). I think this situation was appropriate. You might want to give your kids the 'turn the other cheek' lesson from Jesus but hey, look what happened to him.
Allegorically speaking...
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Just wanted to say that Sasja & Embers have both done an excellent job of describing my feelings on this topic, and I completely agree with Browncoat1 regarding courtesy to others on this board.
Lissa, about the name Leita(pronounced leetuh, BTW), thanks. My mom originally came up with the spelling for my older sister.
"Light it."
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I think that some people are blowing this out of proportion.
1) She's 10!
2) She *is* exploring how to handle different situations.
3) The dad *did* make sure she knew it was wrong and *not* to do it again.
So then, what the big deal? Life is a continual learning process and she *has* learned. Some will teach there kids one way, others other ways. It doesn't mean that any one method is wrong, just different. His method seems appropriate for that particular child and that does *not* mean it is for every child.
For instance when my sister and I were growing up our parents would typically send me to my room from something for a little while, but, if my sister did the same thing she would be grounded for afew days or at least get into more trouble.
On first glance it would seem unfair to do this, but, I learned from my mistakes *alot* quicker than she did. So, when I did something stupid I need less of a... correction, as I just "got it", but, she needed more of a... motivation.
Anything beyond this is just a comment on JustDavid's person. I think that the "WOO HOO" is questionable, but, IMHO that isn't the issue here. It how he is raising his child, and again, IMHO, I don't see any problem with it.
----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River
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