Mal and Zoe
POSTED BY: paintitblack
UPDATED: Sunday, November 25, 2007 12:14
VIEWED: 20987
PAGE 5 of 8
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Wash was spending tooooo much time with the drama of handpuppets and dinosaurland. People who watch too much soap operas start to actually think like that.
Actually, I think he had a valid reason to be jealous. As he said, it's not the Captain thing, it's the Guy-I-Never-Slept-With thing. Mal and Zoe were, excuse the pun, thick as thieves and they had a rapport that Wash wasn't a part of. It's like watching your wife/girlfriend have a guy bestfriend (who is better-looking and accomplished, as accomplished as Mal can be). It's not as if Wash was being irrationally jealous (I don't think Zoe would've married him if he were prone to drama), and I think the thing that bothered him about Zoe's relationship with Mal is that he's the one she was so attached to that she continually brought Mal into conversations with her husband. I've said before that Mal and Zoe had a 'work-husband/wife' thing going and really, it's not unusual that the real husband/wife gets more'n a mite jealous of their adventures. Wash is not soap-opera-ish, IMO. He was just uncomfortable that his wife is too comfortable with someone other than him.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
I don't know what I'm saying. I never know what I'm saying.... -River Tam, Serenity (2005)
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Somehow I missed all this discussion when it happened... and I missed a fabulous rec! Thanks Platonist! 
Anyhow, this thread makes me recall the idea of the Fabric of Firefly. (I forget who first coined the term - in reference to the unlikeliness of the Mal/River pairing - but thank you! It's a fabulous concept.) I see the non-romantic nature of the Mal/Zoe relationship as another part of the FFFabric. More than that, it's yet another way that Joss breaks down barriers and challenges his viewers - are we able to accept a deep, intimate relationship between an attractive woman and a hella hot man (
), both het, without attributing that closeness to sex? Are our interests in fiction so completely reliant on sexual tension that every man/woman relationship in a story must have a sexual history or potential for a sexual future?
Yeah, I think Joss has done something rare, and that it really is the Fabric of Mal/Zoe that their bond is independent of sex and romantic love. They see each other as warriors and survivors, not lovers. They respect and care for each other for reasons completely apart from the physical.
I guess there's potential for some random hook-up early on, or a drunken or desperate night that they both regret and don't talk about. Maybe. I'd be so disappointed if Joss gave that to us though, because I find the Mal/Zoe relationship just brilliant as it is. It's unlike anything else I've seen on the little or big screen.
I guess that's why I don't go for this pairing. To me, most fics with Mal/Zoe sex turn ground-breaking storytelling into a common romance tale. It makes me sad.
(And this post is just in case I haven't pissed off enough 'ship communities. Now I'll have the Mal/Zoe lovers hating me too. 
I'm not trying to be intolerant, really! This is just the way I see the show, and only my measly .02.)
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Quote:
Are our interests in fiction so completely reliant on sexual tension that every man/woman relationship in a story must have a sexual history or potential for a sexual future?
Unfortunately, this seems to be the norm. I absolutely love Mal & Zoe's relationship as it is. They fought side by side for over two years in a down and dirty war. I can't see a lot of romance happening during war between soldiers who are really just trying to stay alive. They went through hell together and that forges an incredibly strong bond.
I, too, can't see M/Z, but neither can I see M/R, J/R, or any other non-canon combination. I guess I'm just boring that way!
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A little off topic of Mal & Zoe, but I don't know how far off.
I'm not familiar with how Joss habitually treats his female characters. I've heard Quinten Tarentino has been said to stereotype his females as hookers or soon to be dead.
In FF, Zoe is the only female crew to not be introduced to show or ship naked. In pilot, Inara is honorably servicing random customer in her first scene. In same, River's first scene is erupting nude from her box. In Out of Gas, Mal first sees KayLee nude while bumping Bester.
Although Zoe eventually gets undressed in episodes with Wash, and indicates such in the Pilot, her introduction to us is in Serenity Valley.
Is this a pattern with Joss work? Or is it unique? Either way, does anybody have an idea what this says about how Joss views Zoe?
Does this have an effect on how we are supposed to view Mal & Zoe?
Mal does seem to have an affectionate interaction with Inara, River, KayLee - whether fatherly or flirty.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
(...) That, and I think it'd just be a shame to ruin the platonic relationship between them, from a writerly perspective. Their bond transcends gender. It's not sexual, not romantic, not quite family. Two people who's souls bonded because they survived hell together. A great team. Unique on tv and thus refreshing and beautiful.
Quote:
Part of what makes Wash's insecurity about Mal worse is that Zoe is downright incapable of putting into words what shaped their relationship into one of such trust and loyalty, because he has never been through such horror as she and Mal have together. In his world, this closeness but be romantic or sexual, because he is lacking their experience.
Niska's torture chamber becomes that experience for Wash and he gains that perspective and context of trusting someone else with his life. Mal, in particular.
He understands. Which is the one good thing to come out of the whole debacle and probably the point of the entire episode.
Beautiful. Had a kinda poetry to it. Definitely. And I couldn't agree more. And I wish I could add something to it, but I can't. Which is what happens... when you can't agree more. :)
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez
:
Somehow I missed all this discussion when it happened... and I missed a fabulous rec! Thanks Platonist!
Anyhow, this thread makes me recall the idea of the Fabric of Firefly. (I forget who first coined the term - in reference to the unlikeliness of the Mal/River pairing - but thank you! It's a fabulous concept.) I see the non-romantic nature of the Mal/Zoe relationship as another part of the FFFabric. More than that, it's yet another way that Joss breaks down barriers and challenges his viewers - are we able to accept a deep, intimate relationship between an attractive woman and a hella hot man (
Yeah, I think Joss has done something rare, and that it really is the Fabric of Mal/Zoe that their bond is independent of sex and romantic love. They see each other as warriors and survivors, not lovers. They respect and care for each other for reasons completely apart from the physical.
I guess there's potential for some random hook-up early on, or a drunken or desperate night that they both regret and don't talk about. Maybe. I'd be so disappointed if Joss gave that to us though, because I find the Mal/Zoe relationship just brilliant as it is. It's unlike anything else I've seen on the little or big screen.
I guess that's why I don't go for this pairing. To me, most fics with Mal/Zoe sex turn ground-breaking storytelling into a common romance tale. It makes me sad.
(And this post is just in case I haven't pissed off enough 'ship communities. Now I'll have the Mal/Zoe lovers hating me too.
Thinking of the lyrics of that song ("You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you," lol), I think it was actually yours truly who first coined the fabric of Firefly thingy. :) Why, even if I didn't, I still think you hit the nail right on the head! I've always felt that the non-sexual love is the real Firefly magic. It's what makes our souls resonate with Firefly on such a deep level: that sense of "This is IT! This is what I've been waiting for my whole life!" And I also believe that the experience is so rare, that half the 'Verse, when asked, probably wouldn't even be able to express what draws them so to the Firefly light.
See, this here's why I think Joss is a genius. Yes, the dialogue is great, the hick speak, the humor, it's all brilliant. But it's the love that makes the soul ache to be a part of it! And why, in turn, parting with it is such sweet sorrow.
So, yes, please, let's not make the Mal/Zoe relationship a sexual one! When Mr. Whedon gets up in the morning and looks into the mirror, I hope he will continue to tell himself, "Joss, don't sully this!" As I'm sure he won't.
Ennyhows, thanks for sayin', mal4prez!
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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Quote:
Originally posted by bullet0in0the0brainpan0squish:
Can anyone tell me Zoe's rank? In the "The Message" she addressed Tracey as "Private", which implies she had a higher rank than him.
I've been told there is a deleted scene in "Serenity" where her name appears on a list as Corporal Zoe Alleyne. (Maybe someone with the DVD or the Official Firefly Companion can verify this, since I don't have it yet myself. I know. I'm so ashamed.)
Actually, for me this would raise another question about Mal and Zoe's shared background, particularly regarding their respective ranks. It is sometimes stated that Zoe was "career" military whereas Mal volunteered after the war started. It wouldn't necessarily be strange that he outranks her, since during times of war promotions tend to be handed out pretty quick (i.e. based more on merit than on time-in-service), but given her skill and military background, shouldn't Zoe have been a sergeant by the time they got to Serenity Valley? Assuming that she and Mal are in their early thirties around the time of the "Serenity" pilot, she should've been more than junior enlisted by then.
Back to the main topic: The thought of Mal and Zoe being in a romantic relationship never crossed my mind until "War Stories," and after that the issue was laid to rest as far as I'm concerned.
"Mwah ha ha ha...mine is an evil laugh. Now die."
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Quote:Well, of course the song is about ME!
Originally posted by asarian:
Thinking of the lyrics of that song ("You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you," lol),
Quote:Nicely done my dear! It is so very fitting - the idea that there's a whole slew of basic... um... truths... themes... things... woven together to make the FF verse so unique and lovable. Absolutely true.
I think it was actually yours truly who first coined the fabric of Firefly thingy.
Quote:Well... sometimes I fear... just because Cordy slept with Connor and even if she was all demon-god-taken-over and it made sense in the end, it still damaged me and my faith in Joss, just a little. Just... ick! Ew! Gross!
So, yes, please, let's not make the Mal/Zoe relationship a sexual one! When Mr. Whedon gets up in the morning and looks into the mirror, I hope he will continue to tell himself, "Joss, don't sully this!" As I'm sure he won't.
Quote:*jumps up and raises hand!!!* I have a theory!! But I'm not gonna share it here cause it'll be posted in the next few weeks as Chapter 11 of my fic Back Stories II...
Originally posted by BlueBomber:
Actually, for me this would raise another question about Mal and Zoe's shared background, particularly regarding their respective ranks. It is sometimes stated that Zoe was "career" military whereas Mal volunteered after the war started. It wouldn't necessarily be strange that he outranks her, since during times of war promotions tend to be handed out pretty quick
(I'm not often such a shameless fic-whore, really I'm not, but I wrote this chapter last August - as in 2006! and the posting is finally getting so very close...)-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Mal/Zoe, Mal/River, Mal/Jayne, Mal/Simon, Mal/Kaylee, Mal/Fantasy OC, Mal/Saffron, Mal/Inara...for a guy that supposedly has intimacy issues, he sure does see a lot of play!
And the only canon time he does GET some play... she like DIES... and the one he really WANTS to "pull on her pigtails", runs away and stays away, until he goes and gets her and then still no play, because he has to go and save an innocent young girl and the Universe too.
The "fabric" (thanks asarian) is woven with family, love, and home. So, please stop turning the relationships on Firefly into melodramatic Hospital or Crime Show romances of the week, even if Joss would have gone there. Which I don't think he would have, considering what he says on the DVD commentaries.
Can't wait for Chapter 11, mal4prez
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Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Mal/Zoe, Mal/River, Mal/Jayne, Mal/Simon, Mal/Kaylee, Mal/Fantasy OC, Mal/Saffron, Mal/Inara...for a guy that supposedly has intimacy issues, he sure does see a lot of play!
Mal/Simon I get, but...Mal/Jayne?
Now that's just downright unsettling.
"Mwah ha ha ha...mine is an evil laugh. Now die."
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