For all those who believe in Christianity or Some form of it...
POSTED BY: RiveR6213
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:10
VIEWED: 25834
PAGE 12 of 16
Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Casual, you asked a question I answered it. I don't feel that it requires further discussion. By doing so it would mean one of 2 things - (a) I am uncertain about my beliefs and would therefore have to convince myself through my answers to you or (b) that I worried whether or not you approve or agree with my beliefs - since neither is the case, I am afraid that your follow-up questions will go unanswered.
FMF, I'm not sure I agree that answering my questions means those things. I asked the questions not to imply that you're uncertain of your beliefs or because I think you should worry about my approval. I asked those questions because I was hurt and offended by what you said, and I was hoping for some clarification. I like you, and I've enjoyed your contributions to the boards, but after what you said, I don't know how I'm going to be able to see you around the boards without simultaneously thinking that you have no respect for me and my faith, and that, furthermore, you're holding me responsible for all the problems in the world. I hope that you can understand how that would be very, VERY hurtful to me.
Casaul - I said "Organized Religion". Not religious people. Organized Religions are instituions. Institutions full of hypocrites. I don't have much respect for the Catholic church, doesn't mean I hate Catholics (since I am one). If you can't see the difference then I am trully sorry.
eta: Believe it or not, my dislike of Organized religion stems from the teachings of Jesus himself.
"And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you." (Matthew 6:5-6)
I guess what hurts is that you must think I'm an awful big fool for buying into an "organized religion." Because if, in fact, organized religion is responsible for every single problem in the world, I'm complicit. Because I give "organized religion" my time, money and effort.
Plus, you must think that "organized religion" is really, really powerful. Human history accounts for only about 0.001% of the total history of the earth. And there was animal pain and suffering long before humans came along with organized religion. And there were earthquakes and tsunamis and tornados long before organized religion. Am I to understand that organized religion was responsible for the extinction of the dinosaurs? Surely isn't somehow secretly responsible for plane crashes? Is organized religion to blame for miscarriages? How has organized religion played into global warming? Isn't industrialization and capitalism mostly to blame for that? Surely it can't be the case that every single bad thing that ever has happened and ever will happen is the fault of Christians, Jews, and Muslims?
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Now you are being deliberately obtuse.
---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Now you are being deliberately obtuse.
Not so. You said that you believe that all the world's problems are directly attributable to religion. But how is religion to blame for natural disasters? Or accidents? Or how could you hold religion accountable for something like the Holocaust? Hitler wasn't religiously motivated to kill the Jews--he was motivated in equal parts by cock-eyed mythology and quasi-science. Obtuse? You claimed that every single problem is attributable to religion. But Stalin was an atheist. He didn't kill millions of his own countrymen in the name of religion, but in the name of his own personal power. Obtuse you say? I'd say that what is really the case is that I don't understand how you could attribute West Nile Virus or AIDS to religion. So if you think I'm being obtuse, maybe I just don't properly understand the word "all" or I don't understand the word "problem." I asked for clarification. I eagerly await a reply. But if you won't communicate, how else am I to understand what "all" and "problem" constitute?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Now you are being deliberately obtuse.
Not so. You said that you believe that all the world's problems are directly attributable to religion. But how is religion to blame for natural disasters? Or accidents? Or how could you hold religion accountable for something like the Holocaust? Hitler wasn't religiously motivated to kill the Jews--he was motivated in equal parts by cock-eyed mythology and quasi-science. Obtuse? You claimed that every single problem is attributable to religion. But Stalin was an atheist. He didn't kill millions of his own countrymen in the name of religion, but in the name of his own personal power. Obtuse you say? I'd say that what is really the case is that I don't understand how you could attribute West Nile Virus or AIDS to religion. So if you think I'm being obtuse, maybe I just don't properly understand the word "all" or I don't understand the word "problem." I asked for clarification. I eagerly await a reply. But if you won't communicate, how else am I to understand what "all" and "problem" constitute?
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- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police
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And I have explained that I do not have to clarify what I believe to you. I have never asked you to clarify your religious beliefs - have I? You asked me a question and I answered it.
---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
FORSAKEN original
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RIVER6213, if you think you're going to Hell, well, I guess you are. No one here can stop you. But while you're there, alone and lonesome, think about leaving. No matter how bad you think you are, if you know you can be better, then you can, and maybe Hell is just a stopover for your next journey. Don't stay there too long. We'll miss you.
http://homepages.roadrunner.com/wydraz/firefly
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Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
And I have explained that I do not have to clarify what I believe to you. I have never asked you to clarify your religious beliefs - have I? You asked me a question and I answered it.
Never said you had to. Just hoped you would because all this business is tremendously distressing to me. I expect an extremist like Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris to pile the blame on religion, but even they won't go so far as to fix the blame for natural evils on religion. "Organized religion" has only really been around for about 4,000 years. Did the human race not have problems before that? The upshot of all this is that I feel discriminated against, because I am, after all, a person belonging to an organized religion. How is what you're saying any different than blaming all your woes on some racial group? How could religion possibly be to blame for all the world's problems? What I hope is that you are not as extreme as you sound, because I have always enjoyed your presence on the boards. But you refuse to allay my fears by saying that there's even a single bad thing in this world that isn't the fault of organized religion. Much evil has been done in the name of religion to be sure. But not all evil. And if that's what you truly believe then I can't see how you could possibly have any respect for me or anyone else who believes in some one of your dreaded "organized religion."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
And I have explained that I do not have to clarify what I believe to you. I have never asked you to clarify your religious beliefs - have I? You asked me a question and I answered it.
Never said you had to. Just hoped you would because all this business is tremendously distressing to me. I expect an extremist like Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris to pile the blame on religion, but even they won't go so far as to fix the blame for natural evils on religion. "Organized religion" has only really been around for about 4,000 years. Did the human race not have problems before that? The upshot of all this is that I feel discriminated against, because I am, after all, a person belonging to an organized religion. How is what you're saying any different than blaming all your woes on some racial group? How could religion possibly be to blame for all the world's problems? What I hope is that you are not as extreme as you sound, because I have always enjoyed your presence on the boards. But you refuse to allay my fears by saying that there's even a single bad thing in this world that isn't the fault of organized religion. Much evil has been done in the name of religion to be sure. But not all evil. And if that's what you truly believe then I can't see how you could possibly have any respect for me or anyone else who believes in some one of your dreaded "organized religion."
________________________________________________________________________
- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police
Vote for Firefly! http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html]
Ok, I have been attempting to ignore you, because this was a pleasant thread with everyone allowing everyone to have their beliefs. But you just won't let up. As usual, EVERYTHING is about you. So here ya go - ORGANIZED RELIGION - meaning an INSTITUTION - of all types are DIRECTLY repsonsible for - among others poverty, oppression, racism, bigotry, hate crimes, homophobia, slavery, murder, death, imprisonment, tortue, the unequal distribution of wealth, corruption, malfeasance, war, disease, inadequate education.......do I really need to go on?
---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
FORSAKEN original
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Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
You may be petty and selfish
But if you were REALLY evil, you wouldn't even think about it. You "worry" (and I use that term to mean thinking about it to a great extent) about being evil.I am not saying you are Mother Teresa, but I am not seeing evil.
What?!? You guys are still discussing stuff in this thread? I thought this thread would have died out fast, but I guess I was wrong, and FutureMrsFillion you appear to be weighing in here nicely I might add.
Anyway thanks for for your posts, but I and I alone know my fate. You are not seeing the evil in me because you only see what I write. You don't see the evil because you don't have to deal with me day after day in person, but if you did, you would be singing a different tune I can assure you of that, but thank you for attempting to see the good side of what you perceive as me. Also, I don't feel sad, nor bad about myself. Just because I'm evil doesn't make me a miserable person. Remember...I completed my revenge mission against humanity, so I'm doing good. I just know I'm going to hell and that's okay by me. Everyone sooner or later get what they deserve.
-River
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FMF-
Well, I'm sorry that you have the impression that I think that everything always has to be about me. I didn't know you felt that way, and I wish that you'd told me that before, because I haven't had many complaints about me trying to make everything be about me. I'd be grateful if you'd IM me and let me know why you think that, because I certainly don't want to be accused of doing that again.
I want to let everyone have their own beliefs. The issue that I'm trying to get at is that I don't understand yours. That's clearly the case because you called me "obtuse" at one point. I was so clearly in the dark that an insult was warranted, apparently. The reason I kept pressing you was not because I think you're necessarily wrong, but because I didn't understand and I wanted--very badly--to understand. Because I just couldn't believe what I was hearing. It just didn't make any sense to me. I felt like I must not be understanding you clearly if I could consistently miss the point like that. I'm not accustomed to not being able to grasp the basics of a thing, even if I disagree with it. But I couldn't grasp what you were saying. That's why I pressed you--and not because I wanted to say that you were wrong.
It seems to be the case that what you are decrying isn't what I thought it was--hence the confusion on my part. In your last post you further refined what you were saying to "institutions of all types"--and that makes much more sense to me. I suppose that if you're using "organized religion" to mean "institutions of all types" then I think that there's a great deal of merit in what you say. Everytime a group of people get together to regulate things, power is imbalanced: a few people have more than others. And it seems like every time that's happened, horrible consequences have followed. Take the Spanish Inquisition, the Nazi Holocaust and the Soviet purges--all abuses perpetrated by institutions on the powerless (albeit for different ideological ends). I'm curious if you've done any thinking about what it is about institutional organization that makes this happen? Might there be a way to approach the problems that institutions try to solve in a way that won't create the problems of an institution?
Also, I want to apologize for your perception that I've been mean or condescending or overly zealous in my pursuit of an answer. You said that you were upset because the thread had been going along nicely "with everyone allowed to have their beliefs" until I pressed you. I hope you can look back at the thread and understand that I'm not trying to change your beliefs--I'm trying to understand them. I'm very sorry indeed if that came off as mean or selfish, and I hope that you can forgive me for that. I don't want to make an enemy of you because, as I say, I've only enjoyed your presence on these boards to this point. And please, I hope you will take me up on my request to explain what it means that "As usual, everything is about you." I don't want to be tagged as trouble maker around here, and if this is your impression of me, I'd really like to know why, so I can address it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
FMF-
Well, I'm sorry that you feel that everything always has to be about me. I didn't know you felt that way, and I wish that you'd told me that before, because I haven't had many complaints about me trying to make everything be about me. I'd be grateful if you'd IM me and let me know why you think that, because I certainly don't want to be accused of doing that again.
I want to let everyone have their own beliefs. The issue that I'm trying to get at is that I don't understand yours. That's clearly the case because you called me "obtuse" at one point. I was so clearly in the dark that an insult was warranted, apparently. The reason I kept pressing you was not because I think you're necessarily wrong, but because I didn't understand and I wanted--very badly--to understand. Because I just couldn't believe what I was hearing. It just didn't make any sense to me. I felt like I must not be understanding you clearly if I could consistently miss the point like that. I'm not accustomed to not being able to grasp the basics of a thing, even if I disagree with it. But I couldn't grasp what you were saying. That's why I pressed you--and not because I wanted to say that you were wrong.
It seems to be the case that what you are decrying isn't what I thought it was--hence the confusion on my part. In your last post you further refined what you were saying to "institutions of all types"--and that makes much more sense to me. I suppose that if you're using "organized religion" to mean "institutions of all types" then I think that there's a great deal of merit in what you say. Everytime a group of people get together to regulate things, power is imbalanced: a few people have more than others. And it seems like every time that's happened, horrible consequences have followed. Take the Spanish Inquisition, the Nazi Holocaust and the Soviet purges--all abuses perpetrated by institutions on the powerless (albeit for different ideological ends). I'm curious if you've done any thinking about what it is about institutional organization that makes this happen? Might there be a way to approach the problems that institutions try to solve in a way that won't create the problems of an institution?
Also, I want to apologize for your perception that I've been mean or condescending or overly zealous in my pursuit of an answer. You said that you were upset because the thread had been going along nicely "with everyone allowed to have their beliefs" until I pressed you. I hope you can look back at the thread and understand that I'm not trying to change your beliefs--I'm trying to understand them. I'm very sorry indeed if that came off as mean or selfish, and I hope that you can forgive me for that. I don't want to make an enemy of you because, as I say, I've only enjoyed your presence on these boards to this point. And please, I hope you will take me up on my request to explain what it means that "As usual, everything is about you." I don't want to be tagged as trouble maker around here, and if this is your impression of me, I'd really like to know why, so I can address it.
institutions of all types of religion
---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
FORSAKEN original
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Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
institutions of all types of religion
But what about Stalin?
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- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police
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