For all those who believe in Christianity or Some form of it...

POSTED BY: RiveR6213
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:10
VIEWED: 25834
PAGE 15 of 16

Quote:

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Originally posted by Causal:
Anyway, what fun talking about this without the yelling and screaming. Pure genius to put this in General Discussions instead of RWED.

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We're actually just waiting for the admins to finally move this thread to RWED so that we can have a crack at it.

I wonder what's taking them so long...

EDIT: But having read on I see you brought a bit of RWED-flavour into this thread without our help.

EDIT #2:

Quote:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Any way. I have this 5 alarm hangover and I want to go out and eat, but I'm too lazy to get up. I spent almost all night playing online chess with this smart-assed, creepoid in Texas who beat me at 4 games out of 6. I guess the lesson to this story is never play chess while you are drunk.

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That sounds like a typical night in my life.

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Questions are a burden to others. Answers are prison for oneself.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Causal:
I think that the only way to leave here with any kind of integrity left is to own up to my mistakes. Then, at least, I can have a clear conscience about the thing.

FMF, I was wrong to pursue you with questions--to badger you with them, in fact--when it was clear that you didn't want to talk about it. My motives in doing so are entirely immaterial; I should just have accepted that you didn't want to discuss it and left it at that. I was pushy, and not very sensitive to your desires, and for that I am deeply sorry. I don't know how you're feeling in the aftermath of all this, but I do hope that you can find the grace to forgive my insensitivity.

To the rest of the folks on this thread, I'm sorry that I let things go downhill so very badly. I feel pretty awful about wrecking what was otherwise a pretty nice discussion. Again, motives are entirely immaterial. The fact of the matter is that I let my desire to understand overwhelm my desire to keep the tone of the discussion at a manageable level. I feel terrible for having done so, and I hope that I can receive the grace of forgiveness for it.

--Caleb

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I think you're probably being a lot too hard on yourself than is warranted, Causal. You are too intellectual to believe that any transgression on your part requires such a degree of self-deprecation.

Did you rock the boat a little? Sure. FMF made a seemingly irrational generalization. I'm pretty sure she knew that when she made it - she's a pretty smart femme herself. If I had to make a call on where you went wrong (because, you know, this is all up to me, right? /sarcasm) it was that you baited her in response. You called her out and expected her to back down.

In response (again, in my ever-so-valuable opinion) your challenge made her obstinate because it seemed like you were being a jerk (and it would kinda come off that way), and she replied to your "you can't really believe this indefensible position, can you?" with a "yes". I'm quite sure she knew that this flew in the face of your beloved logic, and in being intentionally difficult, I think that she's just as guilty as you are so far as these transgressions go. (Still, my pretentious opinion). And down the rabbit hole we went.

What actually bothered me more than the ill-natured debate, however, were the people calling Causal to task for what he did and leaving FMF alone. Yes, Causal misstepped, but she knew what she was doing before she posted her reply as well. FMF has a very strong will and what I think she may agree is a bit of a sharp temper. Don't get me wrong, I like Causal and FMF great in almost all cases, but I don't think FMF is willing to suffer foolishness gladly.

Zoid in particular, I think I'm most disappointed with your reply to Causal. You are (in my opinion) one of the most intelligent, well-spoken, and considerate members of this community, and that says a lot about you. I don't think, however, that it benefits anyone if a man just quietly acquiesces to the will of his wife or any other woman just because she wants to put her foot down. It's one thing to concede an argument that you know you aren't going to win or that it doesn't help anything to fight, but it's something else entirely to simply give a woman her way because she's being strong-willed. Women are not stupid or weak by nature, although some may be willing to use the perception to their advantage. Certainly they don't suffer any notable disadvantage to men in the strengths of their minds, and in most studies women outperform men in many areas as a norm. To assert such is a disservice to women in a way that borders on misogyny, which is not something that I'm willing to believe about you, Zoid.

Overly opinionatedly,

Amiton.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Causal:

To the rest of the folks on this thread, I'm sorry

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My mother taught me that even if one doesn't necessarily agree that an apology is needed, if one is offered in good faith, and it is sincere; it is best to accept it.

Your apology is accepted, Causal. Thanks.


====
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*Sigh*

I guess I should take care when I choose a topic to discuss...

-River

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Amiton:
...Zoid in particular, I think I'm most disappointed with your reply to Causal. You are (in my opinion) one of the most intelligent, well-spoken, and considerate members of this community, and that says a lot about you. I don't think, however, that it benefits anyone if a man just quietly acquiesces to the will of his wife or any other woman just because she wants to put her foot down. It's one thing to concede an argument that you know you aren't going to win or that it doesn't help anything to fight, but it's something else entirely to simply give a woman her way because she's being strong-willed. Women are not stupid or weak by nature, although some may be willing to use the perception to their advantage. Certainly they don't suffer any notable disadvantage to men in the strengths of their minds, and in most studies women outperform men in many areas as a norm. To assert such is a disservice to women in a way that borders on misogyny, which is not something that I'm willing to believe about you, Zoid.

Overly opinionatedly,

Amiton.

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I'm being called out! Awesome! And accused of misogyny to boot! Why not just misanthropy in general?

Dude. I was really just poking fun at Causal for having gotten himself into such a pickle. I didn't attach smiley faces or any of that, because I felt I'd made enough obvious attempts at humor to make them unnecessary (even if no one found my a-list material particularly funny). Now tell me you've never found yourself at loggerheads with a member of the opposite sex, in which their motivations seem unreasonable, and I'll tell you that you haven't been around many persons of the opposite sex.

If you find that misogynistic, well, I'll just elevate the charges against me to misanthropy by saying that I have also found myself at loggerheads with other men, in which their motivations seem unreasonable, too. Sometimes, folks don't see eye-to-eye and things can get a little heated.

But -- and you can call this woman-hating if you like -- I was raised to never bully a female. Even if I wasn't intending to bully a female (and I believe I made it clear enough in that post that I felt Causal was innocent of intent), sometimes we males can cross a line with our insistence that feels to a woman like violence: Like the big, strong, physically imposing man-ape is backing them into a corner. Even if it's only a corner of will.

Many women in our culture, believe it or not, have had bad experiences with overly pushy males, and it colors their reactions. I was raised old-fashioned, I'll readily admit it and take no shame. I was taught not to frighten women, not to make them fearful that they were in danger of being physically, mentally or emotionally abused; if any females are within my range of sensation, they need never fear abuse by me or any other male.

If that makes me a bad person or a woman-hater, well, I guess I'm just gonna have to live with that, cuz I ain't about to change it...

As far as your "if a man just quietly acquiesces to the will of his wife or any other woman just because she wants to put her foot down" comment, I don't have the slightest idea how you ever came up with that angle. On the contrary, my wife and I get into some quite vigorous debates (before I quietly acquiesce).

Seriously though, I win my share of arguments with my beloved wife; she wins her share as well. But sometimes -- as I thought I had clearly stated in my unfunny-joking way to Causal -- in the course of the argument I get too forceful. All I may be doing is asking Kayley to more fully explain a point she's trying to make...but...I miss the not terribly subtle clues that she is getting quieter and suddenly answering me in sentences of three words or less...

In short, I'm not misogynistic. I'm chivalrous: I protect women, children and the weak; I fight for justice; I strive to be a peacemaker. Some people believe that chivalry and misogyny are the same thing, that it's

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Of course, this raises the interesting question of whether equal in value, dignity and ability means that the sexes should be acted towards and responded to in the same sorts of ways...



________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Causal:
Of course, this raises the interesting question of whether equal in value, dignity and ability means that the sexes should be acted towards and responded to in the same sorts of ways...



________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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As a partial answer, I'd go toe-to-toe with any guy, their choice of pens or swords (as I like to say). But I'd never get in the face of a female. Disagree with her, yes; but keep my distance while doing so. Others may differ with my philosophy...

Here's a true story that sorta sums things up, for me:
I was standing in the checkout line at my 'neighborhood' Wal-Mart. Suddenly, the guy in front of me started raising his voice toward the female cashier, disputing the price of some item he was purchasing. She tried to reasonably explain to him that she was acting in accordance with the rules of her job, and would be happy to call a manager over to explain it to him in further detail.

The male customer grew more insistent that she rectify the situation to his liking, and started leaning over the counter towards her, and called her a "stupid bitch", while she leaned as far away from him as the little cubicle would allow.

At that point, by reflex alone, I came out from behind my cart and headed toward the man, saying "Hey, motherf***ker! Get your ass away from that woman!" He immediately stopped, quietly finished his transaction and left. As I stepped up to the cashier she said "Thanks, that was scary". She was still visibly shaken, but gave me a big still-frightened smile.

I didn't feel good about what had happened. So, I just smiled weakly and said that I was sorry for my behavior, for the other guy's behavior, and for the foul language. I finished my purchase and left.

Regardless how you slice it, there is a line that must not be crossed. That guy was waaay over the line.

I refuse to believe that this makes me a misogynist. Still, testosterone is a horrible drug.




v/r,
-zed
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Quote:

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Originally posted by zoid:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Amiton:
...Zoid in particular, I think I'm most disappointed with your reply to Causal. You are (in my opinion) one of the most intelligent, well-spoken, and considerate members of this community, and that says a lot about you. I don't think, however, that it benefits anyone if a man just quietly acquiesces to the will of his wife or any other woman just because she wants to put her foot down. It's one thing to concede an argument that you know you aren't going to win or that it doesn't help anything to fight, but it's something else entirely to simply give a woman her way because she's being strong-willed. Women are not stupid or weak by nature, although some may be willing to use the perception to their advantage. Certainly they don't suffer any notable disadvantage to men in the strengths of their minds, and in most studies women outperform men in many areas as a norm. To assert such is a disservice to women in a way that borders on misogyny, which is not something that I'm willing to believe about you, Zoid.

Overly opinionatedly,

Amiton.

---

I'm being called out! Awesome! And accused of misogyny to boot! Why not just misanthropy in general?

Dude. I was really just poking fun at Causal for having gotten himself into such a pickle. I didn't attach smiley faces or any of that, because I felt I'd made enough obvious attempts at humor to make them unnecessary (even if no one found my a-list material particularly funny). Now tell me you've never found yourself at loggerheads with a member of the opposite sex, in which their motivations seem unreasonable, and I'll tell you that you haven't been around many persons of the opposite sex.

If you find that misogynistic, well, I'll just elevate the charges against me to misanthropy by saying that I have also found myself at loggerheads with other men, in which their motivations seem unreasonable, too. Sometimes, folks don't see eye-to-eye and things can get a little heated.

But -- and you can call this woman-hating if you like -- I was raised to never bully a female. Even if I wasn't intending to bully a female (and I believe I made it clear enough in that post that I felt Causal was innocent of intent), sometimes we males can cross a line with our insistence that feels to a woman like violence: Like the big, strong, physically imposing man-ape is backing them into a corner. Even if it's only a corner of will.

Many women in our culture, believe it or not, have had bad experiences with overly pushy males, and it colors their reactions. I was raised old-fashioned, I'll readily admit it and take no shame. I was taught not to frighten women, not to make them fearful that they were in danger of being physically, mentally or emotionally abused; if any females are within my range of sensation, they need never fear abuse by me or any other male.

If that makes me a bad person or a woman-hater, well, I guess I'm just gonna have to live with that, cuz I ain't about to change it...

As far as your "if a man just quietly acquiesces to the will of his wife or any other woman just because she wants to put her foot down" comment, I don't have the slightest idea how you ever came up with that angle. On the contrary, my wife and I get into some quite vigorous debates (before I quietly acquiesce).

Seriously though, I win my share of arguments with my beloved wife; she wins her share as well. But sometimes -- as I thought I had clearly stated in my unfunny-joking way to Causal -- in the course of the argument I get too forceful. All I may be doing is asking Kayley to more fully explain a point she's trying to make...but...I miss the not terribly subtle clues that she is getting quieter and suddenly answering me in sentences of three words or less...

In short, I'm not misogynistic. I'm chivalrous: I protect women, children and the weak; I fight for justice; I strive to be a peacemaker. Some people believe that chivalry and m

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