For all those who believe in Christianity or Some form of it...
POSTED BY: RiveR6213
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:10
VIEWED: 25834
PAGE 10 of 16
Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyQuest:
I said solipsism is one of the most sophisticated theories. TRUE atheism is another. By "true" I mean those that have come about their conclusion as you say "the only honest position" they can take. Implied herein is the concept then of "false" atheism which in my definition is that which has all the hallmarks of radical fundamentalist extremism without the benefit of God's authority. Perhaps the better description is the Arrogant Atheist who has no greater delight in life than to belittle those with a dissenting view, which brings to my mind our good friends the Puritans who coming to America to escape religious persecution, immediately started out instituting their own. I love that kinda stuff! Unfortunately, these loudmouths are usually the ones I notice. Just like the Fundies seem to be the voice of Christianity, and are not.
I applaude the honest atheist. You may be wrong--(And I'm not saying you are; I'm not saying it here anyway: that's not my point.)--you may be wrong, but you do so with dignity.
And Constance? It's so nice to see the brains behind the beauty. It's of course nice to see the beauty, too; keep posting pix!)
"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw
Yes, well thank you. I do like to believe I'm nice and smart. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...
Morals and ethics is something that I value highly. I like Kant. Honesty in discussions like these are important. Faith is important to people so respect is essential. Arrogant people be they atheist or religious pisses me of. Doesn't really solve anything, being arrogant.
Constance
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Quote:
Originally posted by Constance:
Yes, well thank you. I do like to believe I'm nice and smart. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...
Ergo, Schroedinger's cat is beautiful? Or not.
Quote:
Morals and ethics is something that I value highly. I like Kant. Honesty in discussions like these are important. Faith is important to people so respect is essential. Arrogant people be they atheist or religious pisses me of. Doesn't really solve anything, being arrogant.
Constance
Methinks the poetry in your name has perhaps informed your thinkings.
"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw
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Raidok (and anyone else who is curious) - Please read http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/lifeofwonder.html and http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/carrot&stick.html to help you better understand an atheist's perspective on the topics of purpose and morality. I should warn you that they're long (especially the second one), but I hope they can answer some of the questions you seem to have about atheism.
---
"If I were a Nazi, someone would defend my constitutional right to hate Jews. If I were a Klansman, someone would defend my rights to hate blacks. It's a funny place, this world. Hate has rights. Love has none." - Jeff, Murphy's Boy
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Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
I don't disagree with you that people have done a lot of horrendous things in the name of religion. But all the world's problems? Maybe you were being hyperbolic--do you seriously think that every single problem everywhere in the world is attributable to religion?
Yes
Wow...so then I have a few follow up questions:
1) How are China's human rights violations attributable to religion? Their government is atheist by policy.
2) How are natural evils, like disease or natural disasters attributable to religion?
3) Are all the world's problems attributable to a certain religion? Just to organized religion? To any form of spirituality?
4) How would you sugggest that someone like myself, a religious believer, take your assertion that all the world's problems are attributable to religion? That's got the potential to be more than a little offensive...
5) How is such a view compatible with religious tolerance? Or do you, with Richard Dawkins, affirm that religious believers should not be extended tolerance?
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Afternoon, folks.
Thing is; I would like to believe that I'm going to Heaven, but, in reality... I would not be at all surprised if most (If not all) of us burnin Hell. (But, that's where all the fun people are, in that case
).
Still, despite what you believe in, you have to admit; our society is absolutely steeped in sin. 50% or so of marriages end in divorce; murder is on the rise; we Americans find a seeming need to stuff ourselves simply cuz food is there; and a thousand other little things that drag us down. Yeah, yeah, I know the soul is the judged, and all. But, Sins of the Father, Burdens of the Son.
Personally, I don't belong to a particular sect or anything; Churches at large have down too much shit to let me take 'em seriously as my sould saviors. But, I DO believe in God, Heaven,Hell, etc, etc, etc...
What does it all mean? That we find a seeming need to disbelieve that, simply 'cause there is a chance that we'll go to Hell, there is no need to worry how you live your life.
I don't try to live a good life so I can rack up points for the hereafter, but just cuz I feel that it is the right thing to do.
Stupid me, apparently.
-Danny
A Ghost is all that's Left,
Of everything we Swore we Never would Forget,
Tried to bleed the Sickness,
But we drained our Hearts instead,
We are... We are the DEAD!!!!!!!!!!
THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!
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If posting on this thread was enough to bring Zoid to my doorstep, it's all worth it. It has been forever! Well, obviously not literally. So casting my jokes upon the water, they have returned unto me.
Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
The cat is neither dead nor alive until a cognizant human (or other intelligent?) observer opens the box and discovers it either dead or alive. I'll say it again: Until the box is opened and a definitive observation is made, the cat is in an indeterminate state of aliveness/deadness, according to the 'Copenhagen' interpretation of quantum mechanics. Interestingly, this interpretation also answers the well-known Zen koan: "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to (observe) it, does the falling tree make a sound?"
As wacky as that may sound to many, I like it a lot, because it provides a possible motivation and role for God, and for Humanity within His creation. If nothing exists without Observation by an intelligent being, is it possible that the universe itself -- and everything in it -- would not, could not exist unless there was some all-powerful, all-knowing, 'all-observing' Being to bring it into actual existence (instead of just potential existence)?
("Uncertainty") is in fact a fundamental element of reality, as we currently Observe it (heh-heh). It also has a certain temporal element (e.g., the probability wave function of entangled particle pairs separated by any distance, to include x light years, will collapse simultaneously without regard to the distance or time required for the information to travel that far (superluminal)), which I find very suggestive, to say the least. The past can be (is!) changed by what happens in the present.
I won't get into all points here. It's too late and there are too many.
Thanks for the recap of the thought experiment. It has been a very, very long time.
So when I'm knocking at your door, I'm not really on the other side of it until you see me--or not--when you open the door.
"If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to (see) it, does the falling tree cause a 'sight'?" No, the concept of sight requires an observer. does the falling tree cause a [phenomenon of] light?" I think so. No one to "hear" it no sound in the sense of sight, but sound in the sense of light. Our language is limited when it come to the subjective and objective senses relating to sound where it is not when it comes to light/sight. The koan has two answers and both are correct. It is a matter of semantics.
Now if we are certain about the Uncertainty Principle (I shall remain unconvinced for the time being) I like your conclusion. "God" must exist because we must be observed in order to exist. But, um, who's watching the Watcher?
"Huh?"
My brain hurts. JQ out. For now.
"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
As wacky as that may sound to many, I like it a lot, because it provides a possible motivation and role for God, and for Humanity within His creation. If nothing exists without Observation by an intelligent being, is it possible that the universe itself -- and everything in it -- would not, could not exist unless there was some all-powerful, all-knowing, 'all-observing' Being to bring it into actual existence (instead of just potential existence)?
As to Humanity's possible role: What if God the Creator (by Observation) decided to increase the complexity within his Creation by bringing into being a creature made in the image of His mentality, with His ability to collapse probability into reality by cognizant Observation? It would be a great design feature to thus make Creation a continuing process by having present within its confines a means (Humanity) to continue creating by means of intelligent/cognizant Observation.
Another feature of quantum mechanics that I find very appealing as a believer in God, is that it features a 'law' of probability that is virtually 100% accurate at predicting the distribution of photons striking a photo-sensitive medium (for example), without ever being able to say precisely where any single particle will land. This featured 'law' has been described as the most successful theory ever found by Man, in terms of its predictive powers. So...
...If, by analogy, God were the scientist Observer and we individual humans the individual photons, God could predict with 100% accuracy the pattern we would make on His screen, but He could not predict how any individual human would act. Ergo, there would be predetermination for the entirety of Humanity and the outcome of the 'experimental run' of the Universe, but indeterminability of any single Human being ('free will').
This indeterminability of any individual particle (and by my extrapolation, any individual Human) was deeply disturbing to Einstein. He called indeterminabilty 'God playing with dice', and abhorred the notion. But Bohr and others were able to successfully defeat Albert's every attempt at disputation. Therefore, individual indeterminability ("Uncertainty") is in fact a fundamental element of reality, as we currently Observe it (heh-heh). It also has a certain temporal element (e.g., the probability wave function of entangled particle pairs separated by any distance, to include x light years, will collapse simultaneously without regard to the distance or time required for the information to travel that far (superluminal)), which I find very suggestive, to say the least. The past can be (is!) changed by what happens in the present.
Hmmmm.....I see a movie here....
Executive Producer Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
Raidok (and anyone else who is curious) - Please read http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/lifeofwonder.html and http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/carrot&stick.html to help you better understand an atheist's perspective on the topics of purpose and morality. I should warn you that they're long (especially the second one), but I hope they can answer some of the questions you seem to have about atheism.
YinYang!!! Where have you been? I have so missed you! Is there a whole subculture out there of people that I really like and never get to chat with anymore? Where do you all hide? I hope you are healthy and your godless life is treating you well. Keep in touch, Mei Mei.
"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw
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My brain hurts too.. it starts to hurt whenever someone brings up that cat (wont try to spell the guys name). I think I will continue to live my life the best way I know how, trying to be as loyal and steadfast as my name requires me to be. I will live it with as much honesty as I can, and with respect towards everyone (except maybe nazis and racists and the like. I might fail there)living by the moral laws I believe in (Immanuel Kant was a revelation when we had to read him at university. My favorite non postmodernist thinker). I love this world and I find myself again and again stunned at how beautiful it is with all its flaws. When I die I will go wherever (heaven hell nowhere depending on who's right) with my head held high, knowing that I have lived my life the beast way I could, and that I was as good a person as I could be. If I end up in hell, I will accept that. I did what I thought was right.
Constance
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Hmmmm.....I see a movie here....
Executive Producer Chrisisall
You see? Slowly but surely the denizens of RWED come out of hiding. Soon, like ants in a roach motel we will have captured them all...
"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw
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