The Definition of Hyprocracy
POSTED BY: Redlava
UPDATED: Sunday, December 31, 2006 14:57
VIEWED: 5835
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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/12/MNG8TMU1KQ
1.DTL
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16175897/
Now here I thought that the Christian Right wanted violent video games off the market. But here they are with a game where the object is to convert non-believers to Christianity and if they refuse, you KILL them. But of course by praying afterwards you regain your "spirit points" that you lost after the killing. That's a great message to send kids. It's okay to kill non-believers, just pray afterwards and everything will be fine. I thought that is what radical Islamic Fundamentalist did. 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Redlava:
I thought that is what radical Islamic Fundamentalist did.
I'm not sure that's true. I don't think that they have to pray afterwards aside from the regular regime.
But yes, very scary. Isn't this the same game that people are all up in arms about b/c Wallmart is carrying it? Family friendly only merchandise my eye.
----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
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So... does that finally make Wal-Mart the AntiChrist? Or, is it the other way around? 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Redlava:
But here they are with a game where the object is to convert non-believers to Christianity and if they refuse, you KILL them.
The goal of the Tribulation Force is to save as many people from the clutches of the antichrist as possible.
Your purpose is absolutely NOT to wipe out the enemy forces – remember, those are PEOPLE he has deceived.
(from: http://www.eternalforces.com/characters.aspx?sect=Tribulation)
Also...
Quote:
And if your forces accidentally kill neutral innocents, their spirit drops further: The act of murder actually has a moral dimension in this game.
(from: http://www.collisiondetection.net/mt/archives/2006/12/left_behind_the.
html)
Imagine actually being penalized for murdering someone in a game? I can see how that might irritate some folks who'd prefer the myriad of games where there is zero accountability for incessant blood-letting.
Also...
Quote:
Turn or Burn?
A pretty significant question remains, though. How do peace and prayer go hand in hand with tanks, attack choppers and street battles? Despite what's been "reported," your Left Behind units do not easily form into some kind of roving militia intent on killing non-believers. In fact, there are no missions in the game aimed at causing a war or killing others. You train up soldiers only to defend your people when Carpathia starts sending in the big guns.
(from: http://www.pluggedinonline.com/thisweekonly/a0002989.cfm)
I'm wondering if the critical reviewers actually played the game? I suspect they just wanted to spew more of their anti-Christian bias, and found this an easy-enough target.
Quote:
Originally posted by Redlava:
That's a great message to send kids. It's okay to kill non-believers, just pray afterwards and everything will be fine.
Yeah, but unfortunately (for critics of this game) that's not the message of the game.
I'd also be curious to know how these same crtical reviewers felt about the "Grand Theft Auto" series of games, which do include bloody, gory violence, rape, beatings, etc. But I suppose that murder, beatings, and rape are fine, it's just "Christian conversion" that our children need to be sheltered from.
If anyone is a hypocrite, it's these game reviewers, and the people who believe their obviously-biased, anti-evangelical nonsense.
If nothing else, these reviews only underscore my previous assertion of society's vivid anti-Christian hatred and bias. These reviews come as no surprise to me in the least.
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I’m not sure where there is any hypocrisy here. What I see is another shoot-em-up video game, which are quite common on a myriad of subjects. And this one doesn’t seem to be nearly as bad as many others.
I also don’t know what the “Christian Right” has to do with anything. The only political groups I see mentioned here are DefCon and the Christian Alliance for Progress, both of which are quite Left-wing. I don’t see anything mentioned about the “Christian Right,” whatever that is, advocating this game.
As for violence in the media and video games, I think it probably has gone too far. I like this new trend towards realistic images in TV, but I think it’s sometimes a bit much for children. I don’t really know much about this video game, but others I’ve played, like Grand Theft Auto, are really ridiculous.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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The question remains: who would Jesus kill?
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Quote:I can see the t-shirts now: WWJK?
Originally posted by rue:
The question remains: who would Jesus kill?
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:Which is probably why they're not marketed at children. I dunno about the states but over here GTA is an 18 certificate.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
As for violence in the media and video games, I think it probably has gone too far. I like this new trend towards realistic images in TV, but I think it’s sometimes a bit much for children. I don’t really know much about this video game, but others I’ve played, like Grand Theft Auto, are really ridiculous.
Did anyone else catch Cartoons little bit. It's okay to kill them because they're under the influence of the Anti-Christ, that's why they're non-believers. Not real violence because they're not real people (like all non-christians eh cart), so okay to kill, kinda puts Cartoons real thoughts better than I could.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Yeah, I did notice that.
And there's the problem with the storyline. What I get is that the true believers are taken up (the rapture) while the rest are 'left behind'. It's after that that the anti-Christ comes to power on earth. So if everyone on earth is already doomed as a non-believer, why are there xtians fighting the anti-Christ on earth?
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:Quote:I can see the t-shirts now: WWJK?
Originally posted by rue:
The question remains: who would Jesus kill?
But, I thought it was "Who Who Jesus Bomb"?
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It is the price you pay for freedom of speech. This one probably costs $39.95. Wait till after Christmas and get it for $19.95.
Is Wal-Mart the only store selling this game? Is that why they are mentioned in the article?
If it is rated for 18 and over, than you can not say it is twisting young minds. If a parent allows their child to play this game, we do not have a right to stop them.
The whole thing sounds repulsive to me, but I do not have the right to ban someone elses ideas. If I do enforce my will, than I am open to having someone ban my ideas.
We have to trust in people's good judgement. If the game is as repulsive as it sounds it will only be bought by people with that brand of thinking already.
I can not imagine the majority of Christians would condone such a game in their house.
Traveler
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But it's so easy to make fun of ...
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We have Rosie and Trump insulting each other. How much more fun are we allowed?
Traveler
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So true, so true ...
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Meanwhile I am getting the copyrights on the WWJK tee shirts and accessories.
Traveler
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Quote:It is marketed to children; that’s why Grand Theft Auto and games like it are the most popular games among children. And the US uses the ESRB rating system, but in the US, much like in Britain, it is rarely enforced by retailers, and seemingly completely ignored by parents.
Originally posted by citizen:
Which is probably why they're not marketed at children. I dunno about the states but over here GTA is an 18 certificate.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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I notice some parents don't know what their children are seeing. It is up to the parents to be aware. If they want the government to protect them, then you have "Big Brother". Not the way I recommend going.
Traveler
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Quote:I don't remember seeing any advertisements aiming GTA or any other certificate game at Children. Also I hardly think parents giving their Children games they aren't old enough for is the fault of the game or it's developer. I can't see any viable argument for why either the game or developer should be held to account for either a retailers desire to make profit even if they're breaking the law, nor a parent who can't be bothered to actually parent.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It is marketed to children; that’s why Grand Theft Auto and games like it are the most popular games among children. And the US uses the ESRB rating system, but in the US, much like in Britain, it is rarely enforced by retailers, and seemingly completely ignored by parents.
Sounds like blaming cars and their manufactures for people speeding to me.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Well, the US Federal Trade Commission disagrees with your memory. According to a 2000 study they found that most video games with a mature rating are marketed to children under 17.
But the real problem is that people don’t care. The software developers and retailers just want to sell their product to the largest audience who will buy it and in many cases that means children. And many parents are just happy to plant their children down in front of a computer to keep them quiet and out of their hair. Concern for what the children are experiencing and what impact it may have on their behavioral development is often secondary.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Or suing a gun company when their product works and successfully kills someone.
Or making Dow and Monsanto pay out money to the vets sprayed by Agent Orange, when really they just developed an effective product and the government exercised the option to broadly use it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.
~Forsaken Forever
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Quote:No they don't, I'm not American so how could the US Federal Trade commission disagree with my memory of events I didn't witness? How do you mean they were marketed to children under the certification age? Adverts during Childrens programs on TV, in games magazine aimed at Children, saying "Buy it if your under age"? What were they're criteria? I ask because of all the people most guilty for blaming games for their own failings Government commissions are right up there with neglective parents.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Well, the US Federal Trade Commission disagrees with your memory. According to a 2000 study they found that most video games with a mature rating are marketed to children under 17.
Quote:More adults buy games than Children. So obviously children aren't the largest Audiance.
But the real problem is that people don’t care. The software developers and retailers just want to sell their product to the largest audience who will buy it and in many cases that means children.
Quote:I'm curious as to how a Parents neglect is the fault of the game?
And many parents are just happy to plant their children down in front of a computer to keep them quiet and out of their hair.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:You’ll have to take that up with the FTC.
Originally posted by citizen:
No they don't, I'm not American so how could the US Federal Trade commission disagree with my memory of events I didn't witness? How do you mean they were marketed to children under the certification age? Adverts during Childrens programs on TV, in games magazine aimed at Children, saying "Buy it if your under age"? What were they're criteria? I ask because of all the people most guilty for blaming games for their own failings Government commissions are right up there with neglective parents.
http://www.ftc.gov/reports/violence/vioreport.pdf
Quote:Oh, well in that case, I guess there’s no children buying mature video games.
Originally posted by citizen:
More adults buy games than Children. So obviously children aren't the largest Audiance.
Quote:Why does it have to be the fault of the game? The parent’s neglect is sufficient.
Originally posted by citizen:
I'm curious as to how a Parents neglect is the fault of the game?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:The Link is sufficient, the sarcy reply is not.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You’ll have to take that up with the FTC.
http://www.ftc.gov/reports/violence/vioreport.pdf
Quote:You said the largest audience were children, implying certificated games are defiantly marketed to children because they were the largest audience. I pointed out that adults are in fact the largest audience, I didn't say children didn't buy games, please don't set me up as a strawman for you to tear down. If you could refrain from the childish sarcasm when you have no rhetorical response I'd really appreciate it as well.
Oh, well in that case, I guess there’s no children buying mature video games.
Quote:I believe that's my point, you are the one implying the blame is with the games and there developers, not I.
Why does it have to be the fault of the game? The parent’s neglect is sufficient.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:You’ll get over it.
Originally posted by citizen:
The Link is sufficient, the sarcy reply is not.
Quote:That adults may be a large audience for many games doesn’t mean children aren’t a very large segment of the market, and in fact in some cases they may even be a larger segment of the market. Nonetheless, the developers and the retailers are largely only interested in selling their product to as many people as will buy it, and that does often mean children.
Originally posted by citizen:
You said the largest audience were children, implying certificated games are defiantly marketed to children because they were the largest audience. I pointed out that adults are in fact the largest audience, I didn't say children didn't buy games, please don't set me up as a strawman for you to tear down. If you could refrain from the childish sarcasm when you have no rhetorical response I'd really appreciate it as well.
Report From The NPD Group Shows 45 Percent Of Heavy Video Gamers Are In The Six - To 17-Year-Old Age Group
http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_060919a.html
Quote:I think I quite clearly laid the blame on the marketing and the parents. But regardless of who is to blame, the developers made the game to be violent, the marketers advertise it to children and the retailers sell it, largely, without regard for the age of the costumer. So the blame doesn’t lie solely on the parents. In the end, the real problem, as I said earlier, is the apathy. From one side to other, no one cares, and that includes the software developers, the marketers and the retailers.
Originally posted by citizen:
I believe that's my point, you are the one implying the blame is with the games and there developers, not I.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Well since sarcastic comments are okay, at least you're capable of discussing things maturely.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You’ll get over it.
Quote:I pointed out the adult market was larger than the child market, which was you're assertion. You respond by trying to set me up as a strawman and throwing around sarcastic comments, alarm bells are ringing.
That adults may be a large audience for many games
Quote:Was never my assertion, I asked you once to stop straw manning my argument, now I'm asking again. You can either acquiesce or show yourself up.
doesn’t mean children aren’t a very large segment of the market,
Quote:Like in games aimed at children? Like say Petz for instance?
and in fact in some cases they may even be a larger segment of the market.
Quote:From your earlier link:
Nonetheless, the developers and the retailers are largely only interested in selling their product to as many people as will buy it, and that does often mean children.
Unlike the movie and music recording industries, the electronic game industry does prohibit
marketing targeted to children under the age suggested in the game’s rating. Since 1995, the
IDSA Adcode has barred industry members from “specifically target(ing) advertising . . . for
entertainment software products rated Teen, Mature, or Adults Only to consumers for whom the
product is not rated as appropriate.”
So the Computer Games industry is better than either the Music or Film industry, so what makes the games industry so special to be singled out for the most derision?
Quote:It doesn't mean they're playing 'M' rated games, you're jumping around between 'M' rated and all games as if they're the same.
Report From The NPD Group Shows 45 Percent Of Heavy Video Gamers Are In The Six - To 17-Year-Old Age Group
http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_060919a.html
Quote:Did you really, well that's all right then.
I think I quite clearly laid the blame on the marketing and the parents.
Quote:If a parent buys their child a game clear marked as rated beyond their age group and allows them to play it then responsibility is solely with the parent.
But regardless of who is to blame, the developers made the game to be violent, the marketers advertise it to children and the retailers sell it, largely, without regard for the age of the costumer. So the blame doesn’t lie solely on the parents.
Quote:I don't think anything should be advertised to anyone without personal buying power, which would include toys and video games for children, having said that the only people resoncible for bring up your children is you. Scapegoats need not apply.
From one side to other, no one cares, and that includes the software developers, the marketers and the retailers.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:Who said it was being singled out?
Originally posted by citizen:
So the Computer Games industry is better than either the Music or Film industry, so what makes the games industry so special to be singled out for the most derision?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:They're singled out all the time, and I rather suspect you know that. Much of this very discussion is a testamount to that. I don't see anyone questioning Films or Music here, or in any other thread ever created in the RWED or on any other board I have frequented at all and certainly with no where near the voraciousness leveled at computer games.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Who said it was being singled out?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:My first post in this thread questioned violence in TV, and I’ve criticized violence on TV several times on this board. And I’ve seen films and music, particularly music, criticized for its violent content all the time in the news.
Originally posted by citizen:
They're singled out all the time, and I rather suspect you know that. Much of this very discussion is a testamount to that. I don't see anyone questioning Films or Music here, or in any other thread ever created in the RWED or on any other board I have frequented at all and certainly with no where near the voraciousness leveled at computer games.
Also this is the only time I’ve seen video games criticize for violence on this board, but this thread wasn’t even intended as a criticism of video games, as much as a criticism of Christians. So I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:You mentioned the word TV once, in a post that dealt with games near exclusively, furthermore how:
Originally posted by Finn Mac Cuhmal:
My first post in this thread questioned violence in TV
Quote:Can be seen as a criticism is utterly beyond me.
I like this new trend towards realistic images in TV
Quote:I don't recall seeing a news story about how a film or music made someone kill a bunch of people. Pretty much every time something like that happens the finger is pointed at games.
And I’ve seen films and music, particularly music, criticized for its violent content all the time in the news.
Quote:Because no thread ever goes off topic in the RWED? I said much of this thread, indicating the content not necessarily the first post. Maybe you'd like to reread what most of the content of this thread has been about since you're having trouble with this.
Also this is the only time I’ve seen video games criticize for violence on this board, but this thread wasn’t even intended as a criticism of video games, as much as a criticism of Christians.
Quote:I said much of this thread is talking about how bad video games and their marketing is, and it is, plainly so. Why do you act like you don't know this?
So I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Quote:Like I said, since when has a thread in the RWED stayed on topic, I know you know this, so I'm at a loss to explain why you feign ignorance of this fact here.
but this thread wasn’t even intended as a criticism of video games, as much as a criticism of Christians.
I think the major problem here is how often Christian groups are damning violent video games, I imagine Cartoon is often nodding along to these sentiments too. However when the game includes a Christian message there's not a peep, and indeed Cartoon pops up to defend the game. That would be hypocrisy.
GTA may be more violent, I don't know I haven't played this game, however I do know that GTA does not moralise the violence within it. You could argue it desensitises to violence, but not that it makes it moral. In fact not many games do moralise killing, save the one here, which makes killing non-Christians a moral, even 'good' act as long as you do a bit of prayer to the Christian God afterwards. That's a pretty fundamental difference.
I wonder what the reaction to a game aimed at Muslims, where the player has to destroy the followers of Satan, would be like if it justified the killing of people as long as you whipped out the prayer mat afterwards?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:That’s because, as usual, you intend it to be beyond you, because it’s not what you want to hear. What I actually said, without your massive deletion, was:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:Can be seen as a criticism is utterly beyond me.
I like this new trend towards realistic images in TV
“As for violence in the media and video games, I think it probably has gone too far. I like this new trend towards realistic images in TV, but I think it’s sometimes a bit much for children.”
Quote:Okay, evidently, you’ve missed the whole ‘gangsta rap’ controversy that has been raging for the past 15 years.
Originally posted by citizen:
I don't recall seeing a news story about how a film or music made someone kill a bunch of people. Pretty much every time something like that happens the finger is pointed at games.
Quote:And perhaps if you reread this thread, you might discover that the only one critical of violence in video games (or TV) in this thread, so far, is me.
Originally posted by citizen:
Because no thread ever goes off topic in the RWED? I said much of this thread, indicating the content not necessarily the first post. Maybe you'd like to reread what most of the content of this thread has been about since you're having trouble with this. . . . I said much of this thread is talking about how bad video games and their marketing is, and it is, plainly so. Why do you act like you don't know this?
Quote:Except for the Christian group mentioned in the original articles. Although, the game in question is rated Teen, not Mature. So the game has actually been rated as appropriate content for teenagers. Unlike games like Grand Theft Auto, which are rated Mature, but still sold to minors. So I’m not really sure why there’s a controversy at all, with regard to this particular game.
Originally posted by citizen:
I think the major problem here is how often Christian groups are damning violent video games, I imagine Cartoon is often nodding along to these sentiments too. However when the game includes a Christian message there's not a peep, and indeed Cartoon pops up to defend the game. That would be hypocrisy.
Quote:So you prefer a game that depicts pointless displays of violence as opposed to violence with a moral or righteous purpose? I suppose you really hate games like ‘Call of Duty’ that display British Commandoes during WWII fighting Nazis. You would prefer a game in which Nazis needlessly massacred Jews?
Originally posted by citizen:
GTA may be more violent, I don't know I haven't played this game, however I do know that GTA does not moralise the violence within it. You could argue it desensitises to violence, but not that it makes it moral. In fact not many games do moralise killing, save the one here, which makes killing non-Christians a moral, even 'good' act as long as you do a bit of prayer to the Christian God afterwards. That's a pretty fundamental difference.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:You're continued and blatant attempts to try and illicit a flame are really getting quite boring.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
That’s because, as usual, you intend it to be beyond you, because it’s not what you want to hear. What I actually said, without your massive deletion, was:
Quote:If you think saying you like something is criticising it I'm not the one with the problem. "I like what's on TV, but it's going to far", make up your mind which one it is, do you like it or do you think it's going too far, and get back to me.
“As for violence in the media and video games, I think it probably has gone too far. I like this new trend towards realistic images in TV, but I think it’s sometimes a bit much for children.”
Quote:Evidently you didn't read what I wrote. I said I don't recall any slaughters, like say Columbine, being blamed on music. I guess you have no event since you deflected and dodged the statement rather than answering it.
Okay, evidently, you’ve missed the whole ‘gangsta rap’ controversy that has been raging for the past 15 years.
Quote:Well done, and I'm talking to you, and since most of this thread has been a back and forth between you and me nearly all of it has been a discussion on how bad games are I rather think my point is proved. This is very obvious, I don't need to reread anything, I already know this, it is you who is having problems grasping this inordinately simple premise, I can only assume it is deliberate.
And perhaps if you reread this thread, you might discover that the only one critical of violence in video games (or TV) in this thread, so far, is me.
Quote:I never said all Christian groups, that's your strawman again.
Except for the two Christian groups mentioned in the original articles.
Quote:Maybe because, "as usual, you intend it to be beyond you, because it’s not what you want to hear."
Although, the game in question is rated Teen, not Mature. So the game has actually been rated as appropriate content for teenagers. Unlike games like Grand Theft Auto, which are rated Mature, but still sold to minors. So I’m not really sure why there’s a controversy at all.
You and I have been talking about (among other things) video game ratings. Then you say we haven't been talking about these things and that the thread is about something completely different.
The original post was essentially "isn't it hypocritical to be anti-violent games then produce one to further your message?". The ratings weren't mentioned, but when it suits you you drop the denial and equate it to the original post.
EDIT:
Quote:You really like strawman arguments don't you huh. Call of Duty doesn't moralise the killing in anyway, quite the opposite, it's chock full of how it was a bloody, albiet necessarry, waste of life. The difference is Call Of Duty and GTA don't say "killing is good", which is a message this game does attempt to foster.
So you prefer a game that depicts pointless displays of violence as opposed to violence with a moral or righteous purpose? I suppose you really hate games like ‘Call of Duty’ that display British Commandoes during WWII fighting Nazis. You would prefer a game in which Nazis needlessly massacred Jews?
People play violent games, I do and from your posts on other threads I believe you do too. I'd prefer a game played by people who realise that's all it is, and one that doesn't attempt to instill that violence is a good moral act. Your protestations would seem to indicate you feel otherwise, you'd prefer games to instil and idea that killing is a good thing?
Perhaps you like games that make killing a good and moral act, but only if it's Christians killing non-Christians?
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Quote:So according to you, in order to disagree with mature content being viewed by minors I have to disagree with it being viewed by adults? Essentially, what you seem to be saying is that in order for an adult to be involved in adult activities, such as a sexual relationship with another consenting adult, for example, they must condone the same activity among children? I don’t think so. I can approve of the mature content myself, without actually approving of it for children who may be too inexperience, immature or naïve to understand the content.
Originally posted by citizen:
If you think saying you like something is criticising it I'm not the one with the problem. I like what's on TV, but it's going to far, make up your mind which one it is, do you like it or do you think it's going to far, and get back to me.
Quote:Once again, you’ve evidently missed the whole ‘gangsta rap’ controversy, which involved the argument that so-called ‘gangsta rap’ is fueling inner city violence, I guarantee you, on a much larger scale then anything you would find at Columbine.
Originally posted by citizen:
Evidently you didn't read what I wrote. I said I don't recall any slaughters, like say Columbine, being blamed on music. I guess you have no event since you deflected and dodged the statement rather than answering it.
Quote:If your point was to argue that only one person has actually criticizing violence in video games, then I suppose it does.
Originally posted by citizen:
Well done, and I'm talking to you, and since most of this thread has been a back and forth between you and me nearly all of it has been a discussion on how bad games are I rather think my point is proved. This is very obvious, I don't need to reread anything, I already know this, it is you who is having problems grasping this inordinately simple premise, I can only assume it is deliberate.
Quote:That depends on what is meant by “anti-violent games.” I’m betting that most people would consider degrees of violence that you are ignoring.
Originally posted by citizen:
The original post was essentially "isn't it hypocritical to be anti-violent games then produce one to further your message?". The ratings weren't mentioned, but when it suits you you drop the denial and equate it to the original post.
Quote:Most certainly it does moralize the killing. That’s the reason why there hasn't been (to my knowledge) a game like that in which the Nazis are the good guys. Wanton and needless violence, like that depicted in GTA, is generally considered to be much, much worse then violence with a moral purpose, and the violence in defense of Britain during WWII is generally viewed as violence with a moral purpose.
Originally posted by citizen:
You really like strawman arguments don't you huh. Call of Duty doesn't moralise the killing in anyway, quite the opposite, it's chock full of how it was a bloody, albiet necessarry, waste of life. The difference is Call Of Duty and GTA don't say "killing is good", which is a message this game does attempt to foster.
Quote:I play many violent video games. I’ve even played Grand Theft Auto.
Originally posted by citizen:
People play violent games, I do and from your posts on other threads I believe you do too. I'd prefer a game played by people who realise that's all it is, and one that doesn't attempt to instill that violence is a good moral act. Your protestations would seem to indicate you feel otherwise, you'd prefer games to instil and idea that killing is a good thing?
Perhaps you like games that make killing a good and moral act, but only if it's Christians killing non-Christians?
But I don’t view killing as being good, and that is why I draw a distinction between killing for a good purpose and killing for no purpose (or a bad purpose). Grand Theft Auto, which depicts the act of killing for no purpose, actually glorifies the act of killing itself.
If killing does have “a good and moral” purpose then I
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Quote:There is a fundemental difference between killing for a moral purpose and saying killing is morally right. CoD is the former, the game in question is the latter.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
much worse then violence with a moral purpose, and the violence in defense of Britain during WWII is generally viewed as violence with a moral purpose.
Perhaps you think killing non-Christians does make murder okay, I hope not because to my mind that would put in the same league, belief wise as Osama bin Laden. To clarify I don't think you do hold that position, I just think you don't care to realise what I am saying or what my problems with the above truely are.
Quote:No, and if you actually listened to what I said rather than trying to mischaracterise me you'd know that.
If killing does have “a good and moral” purpose then I’m much more accepting of it then I would be if it were wanton and needless. I suspect though that the problem in this game is not whether it is violent, since you’ve already stated that you prefer games in which violence is depicted for violence sake, as opposed to games that depicted violence to attain a moral purpose. Rather, you’re problem, I suspect, is that this game is, or is perceived to have, a pro-Christian theme, and that’s what you can’t accept.
I don't see the difference between saying killing non-christians is morally right to saying killing non-Muslims is morally right. Maybe you can explain it too me?
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Quote:According to you, who has never played the game or knows very much even about it. I’ve not played the game either, so I can’t speculate about whether I think the violence is moral or not.
Originally posted by citizen:
There is a fundemental difference between killing for a moral purpose and saying killing is morally right. CoD is the former, the game in question is the latter.
I find it somewhat interesting that you have no problem with depictions of pointless violence, but violence with a Christian morality bothers you. I think that says more about what you think about Christians then about what you think about violence. And more then anything else, I think that is the controversy over this game. I don’t really think it is too much to ask that our society at least worry as much about children being subjected to depictions of pointless violence as depictions of violence with a Christian morality.
Another distinction that comes to mind is that Grand Theft Auto depicts images of violence that resemble the kinds of violence that might occur on an actual American city street. By contrast this Left Behind game depicts images of a post-apocalyptic fantasy world, and in that regard appears much more like fantasy games like Doom, in which the violence is subjected against essentially non-human creatures.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:The idea is to kill non-Christians then a quick prayer makes everything okay. the fact you think that's a good thing speaks volumes.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
According to you, who has never played the game or knows very much even about it. I’ve not played the game either, so I can’t speculate about whether I think the violence is moral or not.
Quote:I think its somewhat interesting that you find violence morally good as long as its Christians against non-Christians.
I find it somewhat interesting that you have no problem with depictions of pointless violence, but violence with a Christian morality bothers you. I think that says more about what you think about Christians then about what you think about violence. And more then anything else, I think that is the controversy over this game. I don’t really think it is too much to ask that our society at least worry as much about children being subjected to depictions of pointless violence as depictions of violence with a Christian morality.
Obviously you have no interest in hearing any side but your own, since even when I set you straight you continue the same tired BS. I have no desire to continue this charade with someone who clearly only posts here because they like to see their own words, and only their own, in print.
Take your strawman elsewhere, you bore me.
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I oughtta stay outta this one, but I can't.
WWJD?
Would the guy called the Prince of Peace approve? Would the guy who said , turn the other cheek, suggest shooting folks?
Would the guy who talked about forgiving your enemies seventy times seven times, and rebuked one of his own followers for resisting and cutting off a servant's ear when he himself was arrested, think this was a good idea?
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Holy crizzapple! This is soooo messed up. Some choice quotes from the links provided by the OP:
Quote:Actually "pacifist" is a typo, he meant to say "pacivish," or kinda like pacifism if you squint and forget that you're gunning people down.
Left Behind Games' president, Jeffrey Frichner, says the game actually is pacifist because players lose "spirit points" every time they gun down nonbelievers rather than convert them.
Quote:One man's freedom fighter is another man's...uh, pacifist?
"You are fighting a defensive battle in the game," Frichner, whose previous company produced Bible software, said of combatting the Antichrist. "You are a sort of a freedom fighter."
Quote:Hey! They're only "Muslim-sounding" to you! To me they're just fantasy "foreign" names. You know, like in Conan or something.
The enemy team includes fictional rock stars and folks with Muslim-sounding names, while the righteous include gospel singers, missionaries, healers and medics.
Quote:Uh, hrm, well...they still sound foreign.
When asked about the Arab and Muslim-sounding names, Frichner said the game does not endorse prejudice. But "Muslims are not believers in Jesus Christ" -- and thus can't be on Christ's side in the game.
"That is so obvious," he said.
Quote:Go Gamespot!
Jeff Gerstmann, senior editor at Gamespot.com, an online publication, said the game sn't popular. The game itself, which Gamespot rated 3.4 out of a possible 10, has lots of glitches.
"And it's kind of crazy," Gerstmann said. "One of the evil characters is a rock musician. ... If you get too close to him your spirit is lowered."
Quote:"Daddy, why don't we just kill them all and let God sort them out?"
But Plugged In, a publication of the conservative Christian group Focus on the Family, gave the game a "thumbs-up." The reviewer called it "the kind of game that Mom and Dad can actually play with Junior -- and use to raise some interesting questions along the way."
Quote:Obviously, necessary killing causes no spirit penalty.
“Our game includes violence, but excludes blood, decapitation, killing of police officers,” the company says on its Web site, noting that a player can lose points for “unnecessary killing” and regain them through prayer.
Quote:Aw, what does he know?
“Part of the object is to kill or convert the opposing forces,” said the Rev. Tim Simpson of Jacksonville, Fla., who heads the Christian Alliance for Progress. “It is antithetical to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”
Quote:BO-ring! Gawd, he makes Christianity sound so woosy, y'know? I think that if Christ played video games He would kick ass!
“The idea that you could pray, and the deleterious effects of one’s foul deeds would simply be wiped away, is a horrible thing to be teaching Christian young people here at Christmas time,” Simpson said.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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I'm wondering when we're going to have a game where you play Big Brother and you go around killing anyone who refuses mandatory vaccines.
The sub games will have you playing the role of his evil scientists destroying "gay" genes in babies.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:But this is good, violence for a moral purpose, it's a very very good thing, making violence a good moral act, ask Finn, he'll tell you all about it.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:Quote:BO-ring! Gawd, he makes Christianity sound so woosy, y'know? I think that if Christ played video games He would kick ass!
“The idea that you could pray, and the deleterious effects of one’s foul deeds would simply be wiped away, is a horrible thing to be teaching Christian young people here at Christmas time,” Simpson said.
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if i could just add a few things guys..
this game sounds like agenda driven propoganda, and the so-called "tribulation force" and theology underlying the Left Behind series is an engineered dillusion; ill skip the obvious angle about the contradiction to the 6th commandment which is "thou shalt not murder"..
there will be no rapture.. the concept is biblically unfounded, and historically will prove only to have conditioned todays apostate(wordly/estranged) church into supporting the establishment of this new order of the ages, luciferian global government.
Jesus makes the point very clear, that people will say 'here is the christ! or the christ has come' but do not believe them, for his coming will be seen the world over, since he will redeem the planet from this cycle of death and decay in its fallen state, thereby transforming us aswell.
the way i see it, there is only one way you can interpret end times prophecy, and something as significant as the rapture/7yrs theory deserves to be called what it is in light of the evidence: an occultic perversion masquarading as truth. the game in this case only appeals to those who are already deceived and are being drawn further from the word of God
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That’s a religious argument that some people may not share, but regardless of the religious arguments in favor of or against Dispensationalist Christian Theology, the Left Behind books are works of fiction. Right now, I can’t really see how this particular games varies significantly from a game like Doom in regards to violence. However, because it uses references to an existing religion, I could see how some adherents of that religion might feel some personal association, which may lead them to feel negatively about the game. I personally, don’t have a problem with it, because I view it as fiction, but many of my friends object vigorously (even some Dispensationalist) to the books, and probably also to the game.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:No, I just don’t assume that something is necessarily bad because it’s Christian. But as I’ve said numerous times, someone who prefers the violence in GTA because it is indiscriminate, can’t really claim that violence is their main problem with regard to this Left-Behind game.
Originally posted by citizen:
I think its somewhat interesting that you find violence morally good as long as its Christians against non-Christians.
Quote:Mmbah-Bye.
Originally posted by citizen:
Obviously you have no interest in hearing any side but your own, since even when I set you straight you continue the same tired BS. I have no desire to continue this charade with someone who clearly only posts here because they like to see their own words, and only their own, in print.
Take your strawman elsewhere, you bore me.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Obviously you have no interest in hearing any side but your own, since even when I set you straight you continue the same tired BS.
Quote:Thank you for proving my point so eloquently. You really haven't listened to a word I've said, preferring to make up an argument you can tear down, obviously you lack the will or intelligence to actually listen to any one other than yourself.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
No, I just don’t assume that something is necessarily bad because it’s Christian. But as I’ve said numerous times, someone who prefers the violence in GTA because it is indiscriminate, can’t really claim that violence is their main problem with regard to this Left-Behind game.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Did anyone else catch Cartoons little bit. It's okay to kill them because they're under the influence of the Anti-Christ, that's why they're non-believers. Not real violence because they're not real people (like all non-christians eh cart), so okay to kill, kinda puts Cartoons real thoughts better than I could.
Now wait just a second. This whole thread stinks to high heaven for obvious reasons (no matter where you land on the issue, there's plenty to get mad over). But I read Cartoon's post quite carefully, and I don't see him suggesting anything like what you're accusing him of. Now, I'll make no excuses for this ridiculous game--I'm a Christian, and it baffles me as to why so many of us get wrapped up in "end times" speculation instead of emulating Jesus' example in the here-and-now. But come on: Cartoon wasn't suggesting that it's OK to kill non-Christians--he trying to defend the thing from exactly that accusation! If you're going to accuse Cartoon of such a thing, I'd like to see exactly what in his post justified that conclusion.
Also, once again: please don't lump all followers of Jesus in with this lot. Remember FremDFirma saying he'd love to burn us all at the stake for our intolerance? Now that's hypocrisy. Are there nutjob Christians? You betcha. Just like there are nutjob Muslims and Republicans and Democrats and Hindus, and Tamils and Mormons and atheists and scientists...nobody's got the corner on the nutjob market. There's plenty of that action to go around.
________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
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Cartoon is a violent Christian fanatic. He's said before on these boards he sees no problem with treating non-christians as less than human.
You want to defend an evil little bastard like Cartoon that's your own buisness.
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Whoa! Easy! 
I'm not defending Cartoon as such--I don't have enough exposure to the guy to know what he stands for. He hasn't really made it onto my radar scope to enable me to understand where he's coming from and evaluate his ideas (unlike a number of individuals, including yourself). So please understand, I'm not defending Cartoon as a whole. What I am doing, however, is calling foul on responding to his argument with a blatant ad hominem attack. It may in fact be the case that he's a "violent Christian fanatic" and an "evil little bastard." But although we may be justified in ignoring him in virtue of that, it is not the case that we can dismiss his arguments as false in virtue of that. I dislike fanaticism in whatever form (and I think that I've stressed that on any number of occasions), but in this case I have to call "foul." With respect to the ridiculous videogame this thread is about, I think that if we are going to be fair, we'll have to admit that the objective of the game is not to slaughter non-Christians. But immediately after that we also have to be realistic and say that the admixture of evangelism with gunplay is just plain foolish. We can be reactionary and say "Conversion by the sword!" even though this is not the game-maker's intent. We could also be reactionary and say, "It's all in good fun!" even though this is clearly not very well thought-out. I just want to insure that nobody says, "I'm a persecuted minority" or "Christians are all blood-thirsty zealots." Because once we take the dialogue there, we've descended into the same sort of zealotry that we accuse the other side of (and after all, this thread is supposed to be about hypocrisy).
________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
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I’ve read many of Cartoon’s posts and I’ve never come away with the impression that he was a “violent Christian fanatic” or an “evil little bastard.” Quit frankly, agree with him or not, he is generally a much nicer poster then Citizen. In fact, I think that kind of language being directed, unprovoked, at an individual on this board is way out of line and speaks more of Citizen’s own fanaticism and intolerance towards opinions he doesn’t agree with, then Cartoon’s perspective.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Of course you would Finn, because anyone you disagree with, you try to paint as a Nazi, like you did in the abortion thread (anyone who disagrees with you is a baby killing Nazi) the Israel thread (anyone who disagrees with you was a Jew hating Nazi) and here (anyone who disagrees with you does it only because they hate Christians). Your motivations are very clear, Cartoon is a right wing Christian fundamentalist which to you automatically makes him okay. Like Mel Gibson going on an anti-Semitic rant, it must be okay because Mel Gibson's a right-wing Christian, so it must be left wing media bias.
Continue to call me a fanatic if you want, maybe you could call me a Nazi again? I don't attack anyone who hasn't attacked me first (and believe me Cartoon attacked me first, not that you care about the reality), but for you personal attacks are the first thing you indulge in. Whatever I may be I'm no where near as bad as you have become.
Funny, you having anything to say on anyone elses behaviour or "intolerance for other opinions" really is the definition of hypocracy, bravo.
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6-string,
"I'm wondering when we're going to have a game where you play Big Brother and you go around killing anyone who refuses mandatory vaccines."
This is so unworthy of you. I can understand when people reply in kind, but initiating this kind of thing is not your usual straightforward style.
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Wow. Lots of points got scrambled in this thread!
So, in no particular order:
Citizen- not being a native USAer you missed all the fun when Marilyn Manson got blamed for Columbine: www.johnnyleeclary.com/manson.htm
Finn- As Citizen pointed out, the young "heavy gamers" are not necessarily playing GTA. I know some kids who'll play Jak and Daxter all day, every day, if you let them. Also, "marketing" to a group (say, young kids) does not necessarily mean that kids are the main buyers or even the main users. All that it means is that adverts for the game appear in younger children's time slots and venues: with cartoons, in Disney magazines, etc.
Also Finn, you seem to be avoiding the point of the thread, which has to do with hypocracy. One thing about GTA... as violent as it is there is nothing hypocrtical about it. Both the game content and the game development speak the same language: make money by whatever means possible. And altho I detest violence as entertainment, something about Left Behind's creators and backers creeps me out. I've known people... "religious" people... who have killed others without EVER recognizing what they did. Their heads are full of snakes twisting together. They're quite insane. AFA the Left Behind game is concerned, the website says: Conduct physical & spiritual warfare : using the power of prayer to strengthen your troops in combat and wield modern military weaponry throughout the game world. ... Command your forces through intense battles across a breathtaking, authentic depiction of New York City... Control more than 30 units types - from Prayer Warrior and Hellraiser to Spies, Special Forces and Battle Tanks! ... Play multiplayer games as Tribulation Force or the AntiChrist's Global Community Peacekeepers with up to eight players via LAN or over the internet!
Finn, you said you couldn't find any connection between the game and the religious right. Apparently you haven't gone to the game website or done the most cursory fact-checking.
Also, I read Cartoon's post, but when I looked at it again later it appeared to have been edited. A critical phrase was deleted about killing non-believers. Cartoon likes to play the victim whinge about how unfair everyone is whenever Xtians are treated like (gasp!) any other religion.
www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=25739
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:Finn's standard operating procedure, bury any pertinent points with personal attacks against those making them.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Wow. Lots of points got scrambled in this thread!
Quote:
Citizen- not being a native USAer you missed all the fun when Marilyn Manson got blamed for Columbine: www.johnnyleeclary.com/manson.htm did, but I didn't miss Columbine being blamed on Doom. Maybe music is blamed more than I thought, but it certainly takes a back seat to the game scapegoat.
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Quote:According to NPD, many children are heavy video game players.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn- As Citizen pointed out, the young "heavy gamers" are not necessarily playing GTA. I know some kids who'll play Jak and Daxter all day, every day, if you let them. Also, "marketing" to a group (say, young kids) does not necessarily mean that kids are the main buyers or even the main users. All that it means is that adverts for the game appear in younger children's time slots and venues: with cartoons, in Disney magazines, etc.
Also Finn, you seem to be avoiding the point of the thread, which has to do with hypocracy. ...
http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_060919a.html
According to the USFTC, 70% of the studied games rated M were marketed to children under 17, and two thirds of unaccompanied children between the ages of 13 and 16 were able to purchase video games rated M. (Which presumably means they did purchase video games rated M, which presumably means many children are playing video games rated M)
http://www.ftc.gov/reports/violence/vioreport.pdf
GTA is rated M. (The newest version has been re-rated to Adult Only, which is generally successful in protecting it from children if only because most stores won’t carry it. I’ve only played the 2001 version, which I consider to be way too violent for children, and this game continues to be marketed to and accessible to children and continues to be rated M, to may knowledge.)
http://ps2.ign.com/articles/635/635198p1.html
You want to tell me that it’s okay to market the game to children because children might not be buying it? I would say fat chance of that, but I suppose this is an extreme case of the ‘what we don’t know won’t hurt us’ philosophy. Nonetheless I continue to condemn, whether you will or not, the marketing of violent video games to children, especially when they are so easily obtainable by children. While you and I have our differences, I’m surprised to see this is one of them.
As for the whole hypocritical thing and the “Christian Right,” as I said, I’ve yet to see anything in this thread connecting the “Christian Right” to this Left-behind video game. Now granted I don’t know that much about this game, but I did read the original post as well as the two cited articles used to support it. I found nothing to identify anything called the “Christian Right” advocating this game and how that is hypocritical. Exactly how the author of this thread came to that conclusion, I don’t know.
What is the “Christian Right?” People often throw around that phrase with about as much context as the way the “international Jew” was once tossed around in the early part of the twentieth century. So when someone tells me the “Christian Right” did this or thinks that, most of the time, it’s just a broad generalization. In reality, Christians are a very diverse group with many different widely varying opinions on a huge volume of subjects. So it’s real easy to condemn Christians as “hypocrites,” since all you need to do is find one group of Christians who thinks one thing and compare them to another group of Christians who thinks the opposite, and instead of identifying two different groups, you just label them all the “Christian Right.” So as far as I’m concerned the phrase “Christian Right” is a meaningless term without contextual definition.
What if I were to say the “Islamic Right” are terrorists, making reference to one of many acts of terrorism carried out by fundamentalist Muslims? Do you suppose it is possible that there are, in fact, many Muslims who could be characterized as Islamic and Right-wing who are not terrorists? I’m pretty sure that is the case. Before I would listen to someone throwing around that line I would want them to identify what the “Islamic Right” is. Al Qaeda? Sure. They’re terrorists. Your town’s local mosque? Not so much. Is there some reason why I shouldn’t apply the same standard to Christians? I can’t think of any.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius
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Quote:Whoopsy! The reason folks here have cause to call the "Christians" who advocate a game like this hypocrites is because the group of Christians they're being compared to includes Jesus Christ himself. No one here is calling Christians hypocrites because the many different sects disagree about this or that. We call them hypocrites when they don't follow the most basic beliefs of the Guy their religion is founded on.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
So it’s real easy to condemn Christians as “hypocrites,” since all you need to do is find one group of Christians who thinks one thing and compare them to another group of Christians who thinks the opposite, and instead of identifying two different groups, you just label them all the “Christian Right.”
Several non-hypocritical (i.e.: genuinely) Christian oppinions of this effed-up game are expressed in the articles about the game. No one here has a problem with Christians that denounce the game.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
No, I was just clarifying a point. I think that marketing cigarettes, alcohol, fast food, and sex/ violence to children is deplorable, even if they're (theoretically) not allowed to purchase the product. The makers know full well that kids will sneak in to see R movies, that they'll buy cigarettes, M games, and alcohol, and that even if they don't someone will buy it for them. As I said, just a clarification that "marketing to" does not necessarily mean "sales to" or "use by". Two different terms.
You want to tell me that it’s okay to market the game to children because children might not be buying it?
Quote:The makers of the game self-identify as Xtians. The CEO and cofounder Mr. Lyndon "has also served many ministries and Christian publishers, including the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, Campus Crusade for Christ", Robyn Lyndon, the CFO and cofounder spent "more than 30 years of administration experience working in various roles for consumer marketing and ministry organizations (and was)... Finance Administrator for South Shores Church , a multi-million dollar ministry...she is an Inductive Bible Study teacher for Precept Ministries' curriculum and mother of five". www.leftbehindgames.com/pages/management.htm
As for the whole hypocritical thing and the “Christian Right,” as I said, I’ve yet to see anything in this thread connecting the “Christian Right” to this Left-behind video game. Now granted I don’t know that much about this game, but I did read the original post as well as the two cited articles used to support it. I found nothing to identify anything called the “Christian Right” advocating this game and how that is hypocritical. Exactly how the author of this thread came to that conclusion, I don’t know.
The Left Behind website links to ministries and other Xtian-based websites. www.assistnews.net/Stories/s06120064.htm
By self-description
Quote:This game appears to be fairly well embedded within evangelical Xtianity. EDIT: But my problem with the game makers is not that they disagree with some other nominal Xtian group, or even that they seem to be inconsistent to the teachings of Jesus (who they profess to believe in) but that they seem to be INTERNALLY inconsistent. People who twist their brains into pretzels scare me.
The mission of Left Behind Games is to become the world’s leading independent developer and publisher of quality interactive entertainment products that perpetuate positive values and appeal to mainstream and faith-based audiences...Controversial as it has been, The Passion of the Christ has generated more than $500 million since it's release. Experts are expecting it to become one of the top ten financially successful movies of all-time. To date, not one high-quality video game has been marketed to this same audience. It is management’s belief that LEFT BEHIND will be a catalyst for a new genre of video game entertainment; known, as stated by the Wall Street Journal, as "God Games".
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:So basically this whole “Christians are hypocritical” stuff is a religious argument based on a religious text. Not actually, any kind of unbiased analysis. And here’s the biggest gem, some of the people making these accusations about Christians based on, according to you, the religious teachings of Jesus, are people who don’t even accept the religious teachings of Jesus. Now that actually sounds like it could be hypocritical, by definition.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Whoopsy! The reason folks here have cause to call the "Christians" who advocate a game like this hypocrites is because the group of Christians they're being compared to includes Jesus Christ himself. No one here is calling Christians hypocrites because the many different sects disagree about this or that. We call them hypocrites when they don't follow the most basic beliefs of the Guy their religion is founded on.
Several non-hypocritical Christian oppinions of this effed-up game are expressed in the articles about the game.
While I do agree with you that a literal interpretation of Jesus’ teachings would seem to guide those who follow such teachings to a conclusion of nonviolence, how does this necessarily make people who support violence video games hypocrites? Jesus never said, to turn the other “virtual” cheek? So if a Christian who adheres to the nonviolence of Jesus (which I admit is a straightforward interpretation), plays a violent video game but is mature enough to recognize that the game is purely an entertainment vehicle, how is that a violation of Jesus’ teachings? Now to allow children, who may be impressionable enough to translate depicted fictional violence from an entertainment venue to a real world scenario, to play these games that could be become a violation of Jesus’ nonviolent teachings.
So whether I look at it from a purely secular point of view or a Christian perspective focusing on Jesus’ nonviolence, I still don’t find any reason to necessarily make broad generalization about Christians being hypocrites.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Finn, this is just silly. Do I have to be a pedophile to have a credible opinion about pedophilia?
So basically this whole “Christians are hypocritical” stuff is a religious argument based on a religious text. Not actually, any kind of unbiased analysis. And here’s the biggest gem, some of the people making these accusations about Christians based on, according to you, the religious teachings of Jesus, are people who don’t even accept the religious teachings of Jesus. Now that actually sounds like it could be hypocritical, by definition.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:I’m not going to defend this Lyndon dude. I don’t think he’s interested in anything that isn’t going into his bank account.
Originally posted by SignyM:
The makers of the game self-identify as Xtians. The CEO and cofounder Mr. Lyndon "has also served many ministries and Christian publishers, including the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, Campus Crusade for Christ", Robyn Lyndon, the CFO and cofounder spent "more than 30 years of administration experience working in various roles for consumer marketing and ministry organizations (and was)... Finance Administrator for South Shores Church , a multi-million dollar ministry...she is an Inductive Bible Study teacher for Precept Ministries' curriculum and mother of five".
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:No, but then you aren’t presumably judging pedophiles on what they believe, but rather what they do.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn, this is just silly. Do I have to be a pedophile to have a credible opinion about pedophilia?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Hypocracy is the contradiction between doing one thing and saying another. The group that made the game believes in.. or says they believe in... instilling "positive values". So either they feel that killing non-believers is a positive value or they're in denial about what their game is teaching. Either way, it's a problem. And it's creepy.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:Oh Please. Jesus' teachings are common knowledge, one needn't believe in His divinity in order to discuss them. So, no Finn, this isn't a religious argument based on a religious text.
Originally posted by the King of Special Cases and Grand Marshal of Splitting Hairs, Finn mac Cumhal:
So basically this whole “Christians are hypocritical” stuff is a religious argument based on a religious text. Not actually, any kind of unbiased analysis. And here’s the biggest gem, some of the people making these accusations about Christians based on, according to you, the religious teachings of Jesus, are people who don’t even accept the religious teachings of Jesus. Now that actually sounds like it could be hypocritical, by definition.
Quote:Finn. Dude. Enough with the convenient framing of the debate. We're not talking about just any "people" supporting just any "violent video game," we're talking about the Christianoid ideologues who're marketing this Left Behind mess to children! Argh!
While I do agree with you that a literal interpretation of Jesus’ teachings would seem to guide those who follow such teachings to a conclusion of nonviolence, how does this necessarily make people who support violence video games hypocrites?
Quote:Specious nonesense attacking an argument no one is making. The makers of this here specific violent video game in question, the one where good cybernetic Christians mow down virtual unbelievers, claim that their nasty product can be a useful tool in bringing up good children in Christ. FYI: them's the ones people are accusing of hypocricy.
Jesus never said, to turn the other “virtual” cheek? So if a Christian who adheres to the nonviolence of Jesus (which I admit is a straightforward interpretation), plays a violent video game but is mature enough to recognize that the game is purely an entertainment vehicle, how is that a violation of Jesus’ teachings?
Quote:Okay Finn, maybe you're talking to somebody else now. If somebody's making broad generalizations about Christians being hypocrites, de facto, and not just the so-called Christians hawking this game, then they oughta be ashamed of themselves.
So whether I look at it from a purely secular point of view or a Christian perspective focusing on Jesus’ nonviolence, I still don’t find any reason to necessarily make broad generalization about Christians being hypocrites.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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I can only assume that the critics of this game have conveniently ignored my previous post where I quoted several sources -- including the game publisher -- that the "Christian" characters in this game are not supposed to kill anyone. I am assuming as much, as to acknowledge that fact, they would have to completely abandon their entire, anti-Christian argument as related to this game.
According to the sources I quoted previously, the "Christian" characters in this game (which, incidentally, is not a first person shooter, but a strategy game -- in third person, I imagine much like "The Sims") is to resist the anti-Christ and convert "neutral" characters to Christianity. "Christian" characters are penalized for even "accidentally" causing the death of any character.
However, these facts seem to be repeatedly ignored by those who want to use this game as ammo in their anti-Christian arsenal.
As a side note, I am not defending this game, only pointing out that this particular criticism of it is entirely unfounded.
When I first heard about this game (about a month ago), my initial reaction was a rather dumbfounded "Huh?!?!"
I did think (and still do), that it is a stupid idea for a game -- and I say this as both a Christian and a lifelong, avid gamer.
As others have correctly indicated, Jesus never condoned believers taking up arms -- even in defense.
So, even if the manufacturer's statement that believing characters can "defend" themselves (but are not to initiate hostilites) is true (and I have no reason to doubt that statement), "defense" against hostility is not something Christ has called believers to do. Even a precursory knowledge of the early church will demonstrate how believers had willingly turned themselves over to persecutors to be tortured and executed for the sake of the gospel.
As such, the only aspect of this game which (as far as I can tell) would be conducive to Christian conduct, would be "resisting evil" and the attempt to pursuade non-believers into accepting the gospel.
As neither "resisting evil" nor "pursuading non-believers into accepting the gospel" make for good gaming, I think the whole idea of this game is rather lame, and would not be something in which I'd have any interest.
That being said, the criticisms of this game which portray it as something where believers are supposed to kill non-believers are totally unfounded, erroneous, and typical of the anti-Christian hostility witnessed with patent regularity in this forum, and throughout the world in general.
Lastly, I also gather from statements made by CAUSAL and FINN that some sort of criticism has been directed at me. As I've stated previously elsewhere, it is my strict policy to completely ignore any poster who has, at some point, resorted to name-calling and/or outright lying about something another poster has said. As such, I automatically skip over anything posted (or quoted) by any such "ignored" posters.
Regarding whatever such posters may have said about me, I can only say that my posts speak for themselves, and are all a matter of public record -- which I stand by.
Thanks.
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Quote:Aw, c'mon Cartoon. I took my description of the game right off the website. And, I followed your links and found that what you posted was extremely excerpted, to the point of losing the sense of the review. And, BTW- I gather from the gae description that one is not supposed to kill "neutral" citizens... ones whose spirit points are in the gray area. But what about non-neutrals? What do you do with THEM? My guess is that's what the tanks are for.
That being said, the criticisms of this game which portray it as something where believers are supposed to kill non-believers are totally unfounded, erroneous, and typical of the anti-Christian hostility witnessed with patent regularity in this forum, and throughout the world in general.
If I had to pick a game to teach "positive values" it would have a lot more going for it than singing at people and praying for them. It would be internet-based role-playing and non-magical, where the goal is to build a civilization. And you'd have to find and convince real people at the other end of that internet connection to kick in some work into YOUR plan.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:Wow, lying is your favourite pastime huh. Just to set the record straight, Cartoon started to pretend to ignore me because I decidedly beat him in a debate, without lying and without name calling. He went away and came back a number of posts later with scores of insults totally unprovoked levelled at me, ranging from being stupid, non-Christian, evil, 'dickless' and other childish moronic little slights. He openly engaged in attacks with no purpose or even veiled attempt at addressing the actual debate, while also lying about what I said. He even accused me of actually being a terrorist and defiantly in support of terrorism, which given the fact I'm British and my parents were nearly killed by an IRA bomb is about as insulting as one can get. Frankly, not that Finn for instance gives a crap about the justification as long as the insults are only coming from his side, I have more than enough reason to openly insult Cartoon, especially given that every time he posts he insults me. I even attempted a reconciliation, and if anyone would like to see the response the PM's are still stored in my inbox.
Originally posted by cartoon:
Lastly, I also gather from statements made by CAUSAL and FINN that some sort of criticism has been directed at me. As I've stated previously elsewhere, it is my strict policy to completely ignore any poster who has, at some point, resorted to name-calling and/or outright lying about something another poster has said. As such, I automatically skip over anything posted (or quoted) by any such "ignored" posters.
Surely if Cartoon ignores all posters who openly name call and lie about other posters he should ignore himself? In fact he doesn't do this at all, he's singled out me, strangely enough exactly the tactics of Kaneman and River6213, despite the fact not only did I not once name call or lie prior to his decisions to 'ignore' me (and call me an evil 'dickless' terrorist), but I am certainly not the only poster who has name called here. Lets see, we have Hero, Auraptor, Finn, Rue, well just about every poster on the RWED has at one time or another, and some have directed them at Cartoon, who himself is guilty of what he apparently sees as a cardinal sin. It's the nature of this sort of political debate, everyone thinks they're right, everyone sees they're side as the one thats making life better for the majority of people, and by virtue of this the other side tends to get demonised, and the discussion can get heated. Despite this, despite the very obvious fact that I am far from the worse offender, and indeed didn't even offend before being 'punished' yet I am the only one singled out, I can only assume Cartoon's decision to ignore me has absolutely nothing to-do with the reasons he gives. More likely he realises that if he were to engage me in open honest debate not only would I tear his argument apart but I would make him look like the fool he is, no name calling or lying required. That and of course I've actually managed to workout who and what Cartoon really is.
It is my decided and considered opinion based on carefully reading each and every post by Cartoon, and nothing to-do with his opinions but more how he operates, that Cartoon is nothing more than another head on the Hydra-Troll that is RiveR6213 and Kaneman amongst others. It is fairly obvious (question since Cartoon has started posting more regularly has anyone heard from Kaneman at all? no?) and seems to only be denied by those posters like Finn who assume that since he's both Christian and Right-Wing he must be the 'best' poster on the entire site.
Take a look at his methods yourself, posting little inflammatory titbits then deleting them so as to act the 'victim' (as well as blatantly changing stance), blaming other posters for everything, obviously insulting people while attempting to make it seem like he's just generalising. Turning up on a board with a high content of scientifically minded people and spending most of his time posting thread after thread about how science is lying and evil. Seems to
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"Radical" Christian Fundamentalists are but the tiniest fraction of the estimated 250 Million Christians in America...and even they, as demented as they are... ie. the snake healers, and the gay bashing funeral protesters, are extremely tame when compared to radicals of Islam.
Fundamental Islamic Terror = Cutting off heads, blowing up innocent women & children, and murdering any infidels in their quest for Jihad.
Fundamental Christian Terror = The Sunday Bake Sale has been postponed.
So when goramm rutting idiots like that retarded low-life slob Rosie O'donnel equate the two as being the same I truly wonder how Americans tolerate that type of prejudicial hatred....answer : Christians
in America are tolerant of all...even those out to destroy them.
I'm Jewish....there has NEVER been any country in recorded history that has welcomed and befriended Jews like American Christians have for the last 250 years. I'm sick to death of Christian bashing in America..and it's getting worse every year...fueled by the liberal, godless secular progressive media who attempt to set themselves above the general population. Hollywood is the other domain of secular humanism...one need look no further than the vile, revolting lifestyles these purveyors of filth and trash lead to understand how important a religious and moral upbringing is for our children.
Happy New Year Browncoats!!!
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Sure if you ignore all the radical Christian terror groups because they don't fit into your world view.
Fundamental Christian Terror = Children sold into slavery, mass killings, bombings, blowing up abortion clinics...
Quote:Because well know Moral Alcoholic Drink Driver and Tolerant Anti-Semite Mel Gibson's 'Religious and Moral' upbringing did nothing but wonders for him.
Hollywood is the other domain of secular humanism...one need look no further than the vile, revolting lifestyles these purveyors of filth and trash lead to understand how important a religious amd moral upbringing is for our children.
I'm sure that the problems of Hollywood has absolutely nothing to do with setting up fallible human beings to the status of near gods, above the law and with money to buy do or indulge in anything they want. I'm sure that the religious, such as Mel Gibson, do not fall into this trap, and that if they ever appear to it is merely a function of 'Godless liberal media bias', possibly passed around by the predominantly right-wing media of the United States.
This is because, as you seem to imply, Christians and other religious people ARE fundamentally better people than the evil Godless Secularists, who as we know just think they're better.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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