Anger about Tara's death

POSTED BY: Pandora
UPDATED: Thursday, July 11, 2002 03:50
VIEWED: 10429
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PANDORA

Sunday, June 16, 2002 3:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Well, as you point out, Willow is a made-up character. She didn't decide to say "I'm gay!" Her mader-uppers did. That counts as a political statement, especially after they made such a point of avoiding labels as long as they did.

Ok, granted, but I think you missed the point of what I was saying.

Regardless of whether Willow is real or not, or whether the statement was political (which I'm not sure I agree with, I think you might be reading too much into it, but I'll go with it for now), it doesn't matter what Willow (or Joss, or ME) says about who Willow is; people are still responsible to find their own identities and define (or not) themselves as they see fit. To say that people are going to be homophobic or repressed or whatever because Willow called herself gay is equivalent to saying that teenagers are going to run around stabbing people with wooden sticks because Buffy does.

That's what I'm saying.

Pandora

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

MOJOECA

Sunday, June 16, 2002 4:02 AM

My understanding, working off vague memories of Psych 121 lectures, is that sexuality, while clear-cut for some people, can be very malleable for others. Some lesbians/gays can have (possibly sexual) relationships with the opposite sex early on in their lives, but still wind up joining the 'other team' and defining themselves as homosexual.

Despite what Joss said about Willow being bisexual (probably long ago), if she dates guys now, after "dead Tara/evil Willow," it seals the lesbian cliche*. That would be very bad (you think there's backlash now?). The writers know this, which is why they are now saying, "Hello? Gay now!"

*That point brings me back to the topic: I believe that the lesbian cliche, ultimately, is subverted:
1) A lesbian dies -- Tara's sexuality was never presented as a bad (it was either a good, or irrelevant), so the only link w/ death is proximity. OTOH, some argue this is enough.
2) Another turns evil -- Willow *was* evil, but (presumably) is good again; she and her sexuality are redeemed.
3) And the man saves the day -- typically, a male hero 'saves' and 'cures' the threatened women at the end. But Willow is still gay next season (according to the writers).

--- Joe

BOBKNAPTOR

Monday, June 17, 2002 8:13 PM

Quote:

I choose not to identify as a bisexual because there is entirely too much baggage that comes along with that term. The minute that word is spoken, fifty other words come out with it, including but not limited to, 'indecisive', 'phase', 'slut', 'denial', 'fencesitter', and a score of others.

Or how about the other lovely thought of bisexuals, especially females = instant threesome. (I am also one who is, I guess "technically" a bisexual woman {don't let the name fool ya! ;)}, but I'm not really fond of the title either.) I can't believe how often guys automatically assume bisexual means I can't wait to hop in bed with him and his girlfriend.

Or the other lovely idea that bisexuals are greedy... all bisexuals are premiscuous.. they need one of each.

I'm with Willow. When I'm with a girl, I'm gay, when I'm with a boy, I'm straight(ish).

Oh, my god. I'm cured! I want the boys!

PANDORA

Monday, June 17, 2002 10:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:

Or how about the other lovely thought of bisexuals, especially females = instant threesome. (I am also one who is, I guess "technically" a bisexual woman {don't let the name fool ya! ;)}, but I'm not really fond of the title either.) I can't believe how often guys automatically assume bisexual means I can't wait to hop in bed with him and his girlfriend.

Or the other lovely idea that bisexuals are greedy... all bisexuals are premiscuous.. they need one of each.

I'm with Willow. When I'm with a girl, I'm gay, when I'm with a boy, I'm straight(ish).

Oh, my god. I'm cured! I want the boys!

Amen, sister... truth be told, some chicks are just in it for the "I want to be sexier to boys" factor, but I don't think that's the majority by any stretch of the imagination.

The fact is that according to our friend Kinsey, most people are bisexual anyway, and are just in denial of it. Does that make anyone who's had an attraction to someone of the same gender (if their reigning paradigm is straight) or the opposite gender (if their reigning paradigm is gay) a slut, or greedy, or promiscuous? Hell no.

It's just people being people.

Pandora
btw, I love your sig.

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies
and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

NINE

Wednesday, July 3, 2002 12:01 PM

Quote:

3) And the man saves the day -- typically, a male hero 'saves' and 'cures' the threatened women at the end.

I don't like this. A man didn't save the day. Xander saved the day. It was his and Willow's love for each other that allowed her to regain her humanity. She didn't breakdown because her lesbian lover was killed in this 'unsympathetic and prejudiced world'. She wanted to destroy everything because the person she loved more than anything was just.. taken.
sorry about the over-emotional nature of this post but I feel it necessary
its not about a bloke saving a girl or anything like that, objectifying people(or characters) is what leads to the stereotypes that we all dislike but, sadly, continue to use.

___________
"I liveby my wits. A calling that affords me, at times, no great measure of security"

YAHOODLE

Saturday, July 6, 2002 11:19 PM

They killed her to make the season go out with a shocking bang. Who saw it coming? She was "safe" in the house and Willow was finally happy and then... BLAM! It all comes crashing down, but!!! Out of the whole situation buffy realizes she wants to live which is a lot more important. Yes? It was not to piss anyone off. Buffy lost everyone. So did Giles (Ms. Carpenter) and Xander (Cordelia[Kind of]). AND no one was complaining when Seth Green left. It's a dangerous world. Get used to it and stop complaining. ALTHOUGH this is one of the most disappointing write-offs.

Me.

NOVAGRASS

Sunday, July 7, 2002 12:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
all bisexuals are premiscuous.. they need one of each.

Interesting fact: Statistically, most male bisexuals will have not only many more sexual partners (due to being able to choose between sexes), but they are also more likely to have more *female* partners than the average heterosexual male. *And* from an evolutionary stand-point, bisexuality in the young adult years assist in the success of most male/female relationships.

Amd this has been our interesting fact for the day.

--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

The Ultimate Buffy-Angel Quote Generator™
Anya: Dawn may have had the wrong idea in summoning this creature, but I've seen some of these Underworld child-bride deals, and they never end well. Maybe once.

PANDORA

Sunday, July 7, 2002 3:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Novagrass:

Interesting fact: Statistically, most male bisexuals will have not only many more sexual partners (due to being able to choose between sexes), but they are also more likely to have more *female* partners than the average heterosexual male. *And* from an evolutionary stand-point, bisexuality in the young adult years assist in the success of most male/female relationships.

You know, that statistic is funny to me for two reasons:

1) The bisexual boys I know are far more sexually active than the bisexual women I know.

2) I much more likely to gravitate to a bisexual guy than a straight guy (though with women, whether they're bi or lesbian is pretty irrelevant). Not because they're effeminate- I'm *not* into effeminate guys at all, actually. It's more because while they have a masculinity that's appealing, they're comfortable enough with that masculinity to explore their sexuality fully. That kind of confidence is very, very sexy.

Pandora

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies
and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

NINE

Sunday, July 7, 2002 1:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Yahoodle:
They killed her to make the season go out with a shocking bang. Who saw it coming? .....
...................
... AND no one was complaining when Seth Green left. It's a dangerous world. Get used to it and stop complaining. ALTHOUGH this is one of the most disappointing write-offs.

Me.

I'm not denying that she wasn't a good one to kill, I didn't like her that much, I thought she was a bit wet. But then I never recovered after Seth Green left...

___________
the turtle and the wolf are natural enemies

KOOKYTREE

Sunday, July 7, 2002 1:39 PM

Saying that simply because black and gay characters have been killed off the shows writers are homophobic and racist, as many people have been saying

(go to www.jumptheshark.com to see for yourself)

is something I just dont understand. Surely the very fact that these characters were written sympathetically/empathetically shows that the writers are not, at least in their writing, biased. If they were, Tara would have been a dungaree-wearing tennis player with a shaved head, Larry would have been mincing around making Graham Norton look like Arnold Schwarzenegger, and Kendra would have been sitting around all day smoking pot and talking about Jah and lyrical cheeba. But they werent.

Gunn hasnt been killed off (betcha now he is, just to spite me lol). Neither has the Host (though admittedly his sexuality has never been disclosed). And am I the only one who thinks Andrew the nerd is a touch West Hollywood? And the minority characters who were killed off were not done so in a way which was exploitative or mocking to minorities (okay, maybe Tara, but that was for shock value). Wasnt Cordy originally supposed to be black?

And in that Herald article I just didnt understand the part about most of the female characters being killed off. What are they getting at? Saying a show like Buffy is anti women is just plain *dumb*. Did anyone ever think that most of the characters killed off are women because most of the characters on the *show* are women??

The main problem I have with Tara's death is that it felt a little like recyling ideas- as early as the original pilot, Jesse was supposed to appear in the main credits, so his death would be shocking to the audience and keep them on their toes. But the Network didnt like the idea so it was passed over-- five years later and it reappeared. Hmmm....

Stay kooky.

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