Anger about Tara's death

POSTED BY: Pandora
UPDATED: Thursday, July 11, 2002 03:50
VIEWED: 10429
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PANDORA

Thursday, June 13, 2002 6:57 PM

Today on sci-fi wire, an article was posted about how some gay rights advocates were angry about Tara's death, because she and Willow's relationship was such a positive portrayal of a lesbian relationship. Check it out:

Quote:

More than 1,000 fans have signed a petition to resurrect Tara. Others have written in protest to various Buffy fan sites, Salon magazine, the Boston Herald and elsewhere.

"Examine that body count for a moment," the Herald wrote. "The most significant character deaths—Jenny Calendar, Joyce Summers and now Tara—are all women. The show's two gay characters, Tara and high school jock Larry, both slain. (Alyson Hannigan's Willow does not count. Creator Joss Whedon told the Herald last year that she is at best bisexual.) The show's black characters? Kendra, Mr. Trick and, oh, yeah, that guidance counselor who hung around for half an episode—all dead. We knew Buffy lived on a hellmouth. Who knew she lived in Klan country?"

Posted today on Sci-fi wire:

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Originally posted on Sci-fi Wire:
As for whether Whedon will bring back the character next season, he told SCI FI Wire cryptically, "Tara will not be back. But Amber will."

For the rest of the article (which is interesting, and has a response from Joss posted at the Bronze included) go to:

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2002-06/13/09.30.fandom

Pandora
whose opinion on this will be posted later.

"Logic is a wonderful thing, but doesn't always beat actual thought." -Terry Pratchett, the Last Continent

ZICSOFT

Thursday, June 13, 2002 8:59 PM

I always did wonder why they killed off Larry. Probably part of the "make them care about a character, them kill 'em off" gimmick. Which, as I've said before, is getting a little old.

Anyway, this is your usual misuse of statistics. Something like 2/3 of the good characters on Buffy are women. (Look at the opening credits!) Which doesn't even begin to make up for the low ratio of good female characters in other TV dramas. But of course that puts more women at risk...

I hate the term "polticially correct" which is a smug way of describing somebody else's sensibilities. But it's the term people know, so I'll use it: I hope they resist the PC pressure. They've already caved more than I care for. At least that's how I interpret the use of conventional labels such as "gay" to describe Willow and Tara, something they avoided at first. I don't object to the word, but I do object into turning everything into a stereotype, just to please people who think that way.

PANDORA

Thursday, June 13, 2002 9:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
I always did wonder why they killed off Larry. Probably part of the "make them care about a character, them kill 'em off" gimmick. Which, as I've said before, is getting a little old.

But Zic, we're dealing with a vampire slayer. This chick encounters and tussles with deadly, vicious, evil creatures as a part of her daily life. It's only realistic that people she knows and cares about (and that subsequently, are characters we've come to know and care about) are going to die. That's the core of her pathos.

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I hope they resist the PC pressure. They've already caved more than I care for. At least that's how I interpret the use of conventional labels such as "gay" to describe Willow and Tara, something they avoided at first. I don't object to the word, but I do object into turning everything into a stereotype, just to please people who think that way.

Well, I think that the use of words like 'gay' and 'lesbian' are ok, so long as the words don't define what they're trying to describe. At no point in the course of Willow and Tara's relationship has it seemed (at least to me) contrived, patronizing, or 'PC'. It evolved naturally, tenderly, and sweetly, not with the great forced passion that we often see in TV relationships, but as simply as two people discovering their connection to each other and strengthening it. I don't think Joss ever made their relationship go through any motions because that was the 'gay' or 'lesbian' thing to do- which stands to reason, since, as far as I know, there aren't any 'gay' or 'lesbian' things to do- outside of two people of the same gender being together.

On the other hand, insofar as the article goes, I'm all for gay rights and advocacy. However, this is utter crap. To suggest that Buffy lives in 'Klan country' is inflammatory, stupid, and plainly ignorant of almost everything about Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Though I am an avid supporter of many of the goals behind gay rights groups, I have to say that the radicals that are given press and air time often turn my stomach in their alarmist approach and constant, abrasive cries of discrimination and victimhood. They only serve to do damage to the work that has already been done, and that still needs doing.

Pandora

"Logic is a wonderful thing, but doesn't always beat actual thought." -Terry Pratchett, the Last Continent

ZICSOFT

Thursday, June 13, 2002 10:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pandora:
Well, I think that the use of words like 'gay' and 'lesbian' are ok, so long as the words don't define what they're trying to describe. At no point in the course of Willow and Tara's relationship has it seemed (at least to me) contrived, patronizing, or 'PC'. It evolved naturally, tenderly, and sweetly, not with the great forced passion that we often see in TV relationships, but as simply as two people discovering their connection to each other and strengthening it.

Oh, I agree completely. That was precisely what I enjoyed about the whole Willow/Tara thing.

What's ironic is, they created a positive image of a "lesbian relationship" by not treating it as such. The story was about two people, not two stereotypes.

Which is why I found it rather disappointing when they started inserting lines like "I realized I was gay." It sounded to me like they were deviating from the original concept to appease people who needed Willow to acknowledge her gayness.

PANDORA

Thursday, June 13, 2002 10:16 PM

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Originally posted by Zicsoft:

Which is why I found it rather disappointing when they started inserting lines like "I realized I was gay." It sounded to me like they were deviating from the original concept to appease people who needed Willow to acknowledge her gayness.

But see, to me, that's not unnatural. I think that it's a natural thing to acknowledge the nature of one's sexuality, especially if it deviates from the 'norm' (whatever the hell that means). Heterosexual people don't have to wake up one morning and say to themselves, "Hey! I thikn I'm heterosexual!". But when you're attracted to folks of the same gender, especially when you've been involved in relationships with people of the opposite gender, I think it's very natural and not contrived at all to feel the need to make an acknowledgement of the realization that it's so.

Y'know?

Pandora

"Logic is a wonderful thing, but doesn't always beat actual thought." -Terry Pratchett, the Last Continent

ZICSOFT

Friday, June 14, 2002 1:54 AM

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Originally posted by Pandora:
But see, to me, that's not unnatural. I think that it's a natural thing to acknowledge the nature of one's sexuality, especially if it deviates from the 'norm' (whatever the hell that means).

Well, that's just it. On things sexual, I just don't believe in "the norm". I think everybody's twisted in different ways.

Labels have their uses, but they also have their limitations. If Whedon and company had sat down and said, "let's make Willow discover she's gay" it wouldn't have been quite so good a story -- nor would the resulting relationship have been the great role model everybody's talking about. But instead they said, "Let's have Willow fall in love with Tara." Which moved the whole thing out of the "alternate lifestyle" ghetto and caused a lot of people, of all kinds, to see something of themselves in a story about two young people in love.

PANDORA

Friday, June 14, 2002 7:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:

Labels have their uses, but they also have their limitations. If Whedon and company had sat down and said, "let's make Willow discover she's gay" it wouldn't have been quite so good a story -- nor would the resulting relationship have been the great role model everybody's talking about. But instead they said, "Let's have Willow fall in love with Tara." Which moved the whole thing out of the "alternate lifestyle" ghetto and caused a lot of people, of all kinds, to see something of themselves in a story about two young people in love.

Too true, but I wasn't talking about Joss sitting down and saying "let's make Willow discover she's gay"... I was talking about Willow discovering she's gay. You dig?

Granted, by Willow bringing up the fact that she realized she was gay, it made the story a little less universal, but it made it more true... because the fact is, when you're gay, little things like that are what makes it a little different. Just like when people of different cultures or races get together, little things are different, just like when a man and a woman of the same race and ethnic group get together, little things are different. The fact that Willow realized she was gay was a detail, not a plot point. At least that's the way I see it.

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

ZICSOFT

Saturday, June 15, 2002 7:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pandora:
Granted, by Willow bringing up the fact that she realized she was gay, it made the story a little less universal, but it made it more true...

Except that Willow has been shown in can't-keep-there-hands-off-each-other relationships with two different guys. So presumably she's bisexual.

Except that this is a very rude conversation. Don't you hate it when people who don't know you all that well talk knowingly about how your head works? It's patronizing and arrogant, and just a little intrusive -- and all too common nowadays, when everybody thinks they "know psychology." I'll bet if Willow were a real person, she'd be pretty irritated at us.

Here's a personal reason why Willow's forced gayness bugs me. Saying "I'm gay!" is all very well for coming to terms with your own basic sexuality. But insisting that everybody put themselves in these neat categories is most unhelpful to those of us who think of ourselves as "straight", but still have to come to terms with the homosexual side of our own natures.

And it's in everybody's interest to allow that to happen. People who can't live with the gay person in themselves has a depressing tendency to become the nastiest kind of homophobe.

PANDORA

Sunday, June 16, 2002 12:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:

Except that Willow has been shown in can't-keep-there-hands-off-each-other relationships with two different guys. So presumably she's bisexual.

Presumably... but that's not how she identifies herself- and if she's to be labelled at all, it should be by her, not any of us.

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Except that this is a very rude conversation. Don't you hate it when people who don't know you all that well talk knowingly about how your head works? It's patronizing and arrogant, and just a little intrusive -- and all too common nowadays, when everybody thinks they "know psychology." I'll bet if Willow were a real person, she'd be pretty irritated at us.

Thankfully, though, she's not- and since she's a character on a television show, it gives us an interesting opportunity to examine the nature of sexual orientation and labels of the same... thank gods for stories, right?

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Here's a personal reason why Willow's forced gayness bugs me. Saying "I'm gay!" is all very well for coming to terms with your own basic sexuality. But insisting that everybody put themselves in these neat categories is most unhelpful to those of us who think of ourselves as "straight", but still have to come to terms with the homosexual side of our own natures.

Well, personally, I don't think that Joss, much less Willow, was trying to tell anybody that they have to put themselves in a particular category. I think that what he (she?) was trying to say was that Willow defines herself in a certain way. She feels a certain way about her sexuality. Maybe she never felt about the men in her life the way she did about Tara- maybe Tara was more of a love to her than anyone she'd ever met. Willow coming to her own terms with who and what she is doesn't have anything to do with how everyone else does the same.

To respond in kind to you bringing the discussion to a personal perspective, here's mine: I defy definition. I am attracted both to men and women, both emotionally and physically. I am neither a lesbian, nor what some might refer to as 'straight'. I choose not to identify as a bisexual because there is entirely too much baggage that comes along with that term. The minute that word is spoken, fifty other words come out with it, including but not limited to, 'indecisive', 'phase', 'slut', 'denial', 'fencesitter', and a score of others. I am nonplussed by Willow's self definition because acknowledge that all people are different, and that all people define their sexuality differently. I don't think that any one person, even if that person is a fictional character who is prominent in the public eye, can translate his or her definition to anyone else without that anyone else allowing the character to do so.

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And it's in everybody's interest to allow that to happen. People who can't live with the gay person in themselves has a depressing tendency to become the nastiest kind of homophobe.

Only the person in question can allow, or disallow, that to happen. It's a terrible shame that some people don't come to terms with their sexuality... but Willow identifying as a lesbian, despite heterosexual experiences in her past, can't be held responsible for that.

"Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies
and I saw one of the babies and the baby looked at me." -Ralph Wiggum

ZICSOFT

Sunday, June 16, 2002 2:02 AM

Well, as you point out, Willow is a made-up character. She didn't decide to say "I'm gay!" Her mader-uppers did. That counts as a political statement, especially after they made such a point of avoiding labels as long as they did.

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